Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[a700hitter]

Not that I disagree but there is a difference between not having electric stuff and not being able to execute. The outcome might be the same if you can't execute but if you have good stuff the potential for excellence is there. You can't teach 99 MPH, and you can't teach longer fingers being able to spin a breaking ball.

Conversely, it doesn't matter how good your stuff is if you can't execute those 6 pitches. Buch is past the developmental stage of teaching him to execute.

[Dojji]

This is where I stand. Buchholz has had chance after chance after chance after chance after chance. At this point it's done, the book is written, time to close the cover. Just another in the long history of extremely talented MLB pitchers who just never managed to put it all together for whatever reason.

[mvp 78]

This is where I stand. Buchholz has had chance after chance after chance after chance after chance. At this point it's done, the book is written, time to close the cover. Just another in the long history of extremely talented MLB pitchers who just never managed to put it all together for whatever reason.

 

Unfortunately, Buchholz has another no-brainer team option for 2017 at $13.5. Note, the option increases to $14M if he finishes 1st or 2nd in CY voting this year!

[Maxbialystock]

This is where I stand. Buchholz has had chance after chance after chance after chance after chance. At this point it's done, the book is written, time to close the cover. Just another in the long history of extremely talented MLB pitchers who just never managed to put it all together for whatever reason.

 

I'm not sure "chance after chance after chance" is the right take on Buchholz. He has had several good years, including last year. His problem is durability, including last year. Given how hard it is to get a good starter for less than a king's ransom, it made sense to bring him back another year if only because he wasn't bad last year (ERA of 3.26). His best season, albeit a short one, was just 3 years ago, 2013, when he was 12-1 with an ERA of 1.74 while starting 16 games. Last year he started 18 games. He turns 32 in August.

 

I am not any great Buchholz defender because he drives me nuts too. But at this point I don't think it's unreasonable to keep him around if only because the Sox are not knee deep in good starters. We think/hope Price has turned it around. Wright has been great, but is also a knuckleballer. Porcello has been good. After those three, not a lot to choose from, including Buchholz.

[User Name]

Durability is half the problem. Run prevention is also a problem depending on the year, and we're back to square one: Buchholz has not provided a single season that combines above average IP and run prevention numbers since 2010.

[kreinbihl34]

I have heard that PNC Park is a very nice ballpark. What are your thoughts about it?

 

I lurk around here anymore, but I had to respond to this. If you're a baseball fan, you have to catch a game at PNC. I've been to Fenway, Jacob's Field (Not Progressive Field), Great American Ball Park, even Yankee Stadium and others. While I enjoyed my trip to Fenway so much and go to many Guardians games a year, PNC is the best place to watch a game.

[a700hitter]

I lurk around here anymore, but I had to respond to this. If you're a baseball fan, you have to catch a game at PNC. I've been to Fenway, Jacob's Field (Not Progressive Field), Great American Ball Park, even Yankee Stadium and others. While I enjoyed my trip to Fenway so much and go to many Guardians games a year, PNC is the best place to watch a game.

Thanks for the input. This is very consistent with what I have heard.

[FredLynn]

Unfortunately, Buchholz has another no-brainer team option for 2017 at $13.5. Note, the option increases to $14M if he finishes 1st or 2nd in CY voting this year!

 

I agree its a no brainer, but probably not in the same manner that you think of it. His ERA is now nearly 6 after almost 10 starts.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree its a no brainer, but probably not in the same manner that you think of it. His ERA is now nearly 6 after almost 10 starts.

 

mvp's post was pure mockery.

[Kimmi]

mvp's post was pure mockery.

 

I hope Buchholz goes on a nice run, just so the Sox pick up his option for next year and we can have this "no brainer" debate all over again.

[cp176]

I hope Buchholz goes on a nice run, just so the Sox pick up his option for next year and we can have this "no brainer" debate all over again.

 

Gives us something to talk about doesn't it.

[mvp 78]

I hope Buchholz goes on a nice run, just so the Sox pick up his option for next year and we can have this "no brainer" debate all over again.

 

Even if he stinks, they'll still pick it up because it gives the team great value!

[Slasher9]

I agree its a no brainer, but probably not in the same manner that you think of it. His ERA is now nearly 6 after almost 10 starts.

 

So is David price's.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

So is David price's.

 

But Price's resume is slightly better than Buch's.

[Slasher9]

But Price's resume is slightly better than Buch's.

 

Agreed. And his salary and length of contract reflect that.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Agreed. And his salary and length of contract reflect that.

 

That's the problem with big time free agents, you usually end up paying mostly for what they have done instead of what they are going to do.

[Slasher9]

That's the problem with big time free agents, you usually end up paying mostly for what they have done instead of what they are going to do.

 

thanks for making my point. this is exactly why a 1 year / $13MM contract for a starting pitcher is a no-brainer. if he pitches to a 3 ERA he is a steal. if he pitches to a 5+ ERA it doesnt crush the organization.

[Dojji]

But it does mean that money that could have gone to a more consistent lower rotation pitcher will go to Buchholz instead. I believe the relevant aphorism is "throwing good money after bad."

[southpaw777]

But it does mean that money that could have gone to a more consistent lower rotation pitcher will go to Buchholz instead. I believe the relevant aphorism is "throwing good money after bad."

 

And that my friend is baseball...there were other options at 13m, but my guess is they had more negatives attached to them...in the sox eyes anyway...maybe the Sox/DD were waiting a year to see who was available, how their own guys worked out, ie;Erod/Kelly and the prospects....I dont think anyone thought Owens wouldnt be able to find the plate, kellys injured shoulder, Johnson having friggin anxiety, elias being very hittable, and Kopech breaking his hand because hes an idiot, aetc....

I dont mind them picking up his option this year. Next year? Maybe not so much...

[User Name]

Trying to justify Buchholz' suckitude by comparing him to Price is laughable. Price's peripherals (11.39 K/9, 5.0 K/BB, 2.28 BB/9, .352 BABIP, 2.68 FIP) suggest an ace-caliber pitcher who has endured some bad luck. CB's peripherals (6.10 K/9, 1.46 K/BB, 4.18 BB/9, 260 (!) BABIP, 5.48 FIP) suggest a s***** pitcher who is pitching s*****.

 

I mean, I agree that his option should have been picked up, but let's not try to justify the unjustifiable.

[Slasher9]

But it does mean that money that could have gone to a more consistent lower rotation pitcher will go to Buchholz instead. I believe the relevant aphorism is "throwing good money after bad."

 

do you have a list you posted this past offseason on who you would have spent that option money on? i think we would all prefer to "throw good money after good".

but i am unsure of the list of SP we could have had on a 1 year deal this past offseason? anyone?

[Slasher9]

Trying to justify Buchholz' suckitude by comparing him to Price is laughable. Price's peripherals (11.39 K/9, 5.0 K/BB, 2.28 BB/9, .352 BABIP, 2.68 FIP) suggest an ace-caliber pitcher who has endured some bad luck. CB's peripherals (6.10 K/9, 1.46 K/BB, 4.18 BB/9, 260 (!) BABIP, 5.48 FIP) suggest a s***** pitcher who is pitching s*****.

 

I mean, I agree that his option should have been picked up, but let's not try to justify the unjustifiable.

 

it was in response to a post that said "he has a 6 ERA at ~ 10 starts". i simply pointed out another starting pitcher on the Red Sox staff with similar GS + ERA numbers. what is "unjustifiable" about that?

[Emp9]

And that my friend is baseball...there were other options at 13m, but my guess is they had more negatives attached to them...in the sox eyes anyway...maybe the Sox/DD were waiting a year to see who was available, how their own guys worked out, ie;Erod/Kelly and the prospects....I dont think anyone thought Owens wouldnt be able to find the plate, kellys injured shoulder, Johnson having friggin anxiety, elias being very hittable, and Kopech breaking his hand because hes an idiot, aetc....

I dont mind them picking up his option this year. Next year? Maybe not so much...

 

FA held comparable risks. Regarding Buch and the FO... You have to see that raise to get to the flop in a sense.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

thanks for making my point. this is exactly why a 1 year / $13MM contract for a starting pitcher is a no-brainer. if he pitches to a 3 ERA he is a steal. if he pitches to a 5+ ERA it doesnt crush the organization.

 

While it may not "crush" the organization, it certainly makes it tougher to compete for the postseason when one of your starters is carrying a 5+ ERA.

[User Name]

it was in response to a post that said "he has a 6 ERA at ~ 10 starts". i simply pointed out another starting pitcher on the Red Sox staff with similar GS + ERA numbers. what is "unjustifiable" about that?

 

The fact that Buchholz flat-out suck. It's not 1968, we understand the underlying numbers and peripherals behind a pitcher's performance. You just can't compare Price to Buchholz in 2016 or any other year for that matter to make absolutely any point.

[Emp9]

it was in response to a post that said "he has a 6 ERA at ~ 10 starts". i simply pointed out another starting pitcher on the Red Sox staff with similar GS + ERA numbers. what is "unjustifiable" about that?

 

Slash, I read an over the Monster article this morning about 'The Quality Start' and sure enough they compared Buch vs Kershaw no less. I'm reading it while thinking, I've never compared the two and for good reason I think it's irrelevant. What I've been comparing Buchholz to was our rotation from last year. Kelly, Porcello, Owens, Miley, Wright. 'The Quality Start' may be less important to a less offense oriented team, but the Sox have been a top 3 offense since going back mid way through last season. A QS is VERY important to a team like ours. Any one pushing for trading for a #3 SP realizes this. Buch has shown in the past he has the abilty to turn things around for the better. He could be worth the mild gamble yet.

[Emp9]

While it may not "crush" the organization, it certainly makes it tougher to compete for the postseason when one of your starters is carrying a 5+ ERA.

 

But every team in league has a few.

[mvp 78]

He is just as likely to flat out suck for the rest of the year. If you guys enjoy watching him pitch, you have stronger stomachs than I do.

[Emp9]

He is just as likely to flat out suck for the rest of the year. If you guys enjoy watching him pitch, you have stronger stomachs than I do.

 

Again you're not getting it. Whether he sucks or not this season, the gamble was worth it.

[Slasher9]

The fact that Buchholz flat-out suck. It's not 1968, we understand the underlying numbers and peripherals behind a pitcher's performance. You just can't compare Price to Buchholz in 2016 or any other year for that matter to make absolutely any point.

 

you can compare any two players in baseball. that's what makes our favorite game the absolute best. i dont care if price has 5 more k's per start and buch has 5 more groundouts per start. the ERA (and to an extent WHIP) shows how a pitcher has performed THUS FAR. the peripherals can form a solid opinion on how you expect said pitcher to perform GOING FORWARD. but i dont care if my pitcher gets 18 outs a game via flyball or 18 outs a game vie K if the end result is a ~ 6 ERA they are doing the SAME RESULT.

now if you want me to talk "future starts" then yes, without a doubt Price should have better numbers than clay. but he is SUPPOSED TO. he is getting paid 2.5 times more than him this season and his length of contract is 7 years more than Clays. so yeah, he better put up better numbers and better "peripherals".

i dont expect my 1 year / $13MM contract pitcher to perform like a 7 year / $217MM pitcher. Do you? sure sounds like it.