Referendum on John Farrell

[Kimmi]

Plus, per Pete Abraham of the Globe, the first 4 hitters up for Detroit in the 8th were hitting .429 against Ziegler (against Taz they were "only" .378).

 

I can only assume Barnes was unavailable yesterday for some reason. Hembree pitched his way out of these situations earlier this year so I'm not sure he would have been a good choice. Kimbrel for 2?

 

Barnes was unavailable yesterday and might still be unavailable tonight. He said he is still feeling sore from his 30-some pitches the game before.

[Nick]

Plus, per Pete Abraham of the Globe, the first 4 hitters up for Detroit in the 8th were hitting .429 against Ziegler (against Taz they were "only" .378).

 

I can only assume Barnes was unavailable yesterday for some reason. Hembree pitched his way out of these situations earlier this year so I'm not sure he would have been a good choice. Kimbrel for 2?

 

THIS IS WHERE BASEBALL HAS GONE NUTS ON BOXING PLAYERS IN WITH THEIR ROLES.....SO WE SHOULD HAVE PITCHED KIMBREL IN THE 8TH THEN ZIEGLER IN THE 9TH. THEY ARE BOTH ON CONTRACT. WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER WHO CLOSES 100% OF THE TIME? MATCH UP DICTATED THAT KIMBREL SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE GAME FOR A SHUT DOWN INNING AFTER THE SOX HAD TAKEN A 3-1 LEAD BECAUSE ZIEGLER COULD HAVE PITCHED 9TH.

 

Wow, wow, would that hurt their little feelings? What a bunch of pussies.,

[Dojji]

They're pussies who can do things you and I cannot do, and I'll leave managing the egos that allow these guys to go out there and pitch with confidence, up to the professionals.

[illinoisredsox]

THIS IS WHERE BASEBALL HAS GONE NUTS ON BOXING PLAYERS IN WITH THEIR ROLES.....SO WE SHOULD HAVE PITCHED KIMBREL IN THE 8TH THEN ZIEGLER IN THE 9TH. THEY ARE BOTH ON CONTRACT. WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER WHO CLOSES 100% OF THE TIME? MATCH UP DICTATED THAT KIMBREL SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE GAME FOR A SHUT DOWN INNING AFTER THE SOX HAD TAKEN A 3-1 LEAD BECAUSE ZIEGLER COULD HAVE PITCHED 9TH.

 

Wow, wow, would that hurt their little feelings? What a bunch of pussies.,

 

Unfortunately, that's what it has come to. Everyone has to have a role and you can't deviate from that role. Kimbrel is a perfect example. In actual save situations, he's been really good (high wire act, but he's gotten the job done 90% of the time). In non-save situations (tied game or behind) he's been awful. He's hardly the only one in the majors.

 

And back in the day, Kimbrel would have pitched both the 8th and the 9th.

 

Dojii has it right, though, when it comes to managing these guys, no thanks.

[sk7326]

I watched that and wondered the same thing - why pitch to Betts in that situation? Then I realized that Asmus knows how badly our BP sucks and he knew the Tigers weren't done scoring runs. Then after Mookie reached base Asmus made the change rather than risk being two runs down.

 

I meant the top of the 9th!

[Dojji]

Unfortunately, that's what it has come to. Everyone has to have a role and you can't deviate from that role. Kimbrel is a perfect example. In actual save situations, he's been really good (high wire act, but he's gotten the job done 90% of the time). In non-save situations (tied game or behind) he's been awful. He's hardly the only one in the majors.

 

And back in the day, Kimbrel would have pitched both the 8th and the 9th.

 

Back in the day, Kimbrel would have had a 2 year career and been out of hte league with an elbow or shoulder injury. It's absolutely stupefying the level of turnover in those old tyme bullpens you guys laud so much.

 

There's a reason we have these roles. As it is we've already broken 2 relievers this year, possibly a third if Tazawa can't regain effectiveness. The roles are designed to stop us breaking them even more. When we try to push relievers beyond the strict roleplay system, we wind up with Alfredo Aceves and Manny Delcarmen -- guys that look good because they can take it, for a little while, but these guys are never able to take that kind of abuse for more than a year or two. I don't know of a single relief pitcher that can really take an 80+ inning pace for 5 years in a row. Their job seems easy, at least relative to other pro ballplayers, but the burnout rate gives the lie to that pretty quickly, if you're paying attention.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Dojji

[Nick]

They're pussies who can do things you and I cannot do, and I'll leave managing the egos that allow these guys to go out there and pitch with confidence, up to the professionals.

 

I just like saying it.

[illinoisredsox]

Back in the day, Kimbrel would have had a 2 year career and been out of hte league with an elbow or shoulder injury. It's absolutely stupefying the level of turnover in those old tyme bullpens you guys laud so much.

 

There's a reason we have these roles. As it is we've already broken 2 relievers this year, possibly a third of Tazawa can't regain effectiveness. The roles are designed to stop us breaking them even more. When we try to push relievers beyond the strict roleplay system, we wind up with Alfredo Aceves and Manny Delcarmen -- guys that look good because they can take it, for a little while, but these guys never last long.

 

That's true. We always remember the Fingers and Gossages and Sutters who were able to do it for years. We forget about the guys who were gone in a blink.

 

Sutter once said one of the classiest things I ever heard when he finally blew his arm out after 15 or so seasons. Everyone was telling him how sorry they were that his career ended that way. Paraphrasing, he said don't feel sorry for me, I had 15 years. Feel sorry for the 19 year old kid in A ball who just blew his arm out.

[Wade Boggs]

On July 27 Ziegler gave up a game-winning dinger to, guess who, Cabrera. Plus, as we know, he has amazing control issues, by which I mean walking guys after getting an 0-2 count. He might have been better than Tazawa, but it wasn't as clearcut as you seem to think. I personally would not have sent Tazawa out there because of his recent outings, but I think the real issue is the bullpen.

 

I agree with you with on the bullpen part. But wasn't Ziegler brought into that game with the score 3-3 in the top of the 9th, Also Kimbrel was still on the DL. The game yesterday was 3-1 B/8... total different games IMO. What I'm trying to say it looked like to me , he tried to avoid sending Ziegler in, because he didn't want to use him at all. It didn't work out that way. He was used anyway. I though Ziegler was the prime setup man when he doesn't pitch three days straight. He was not traded to the Red Sox to put out bases- loaded no out jams every time Farrell brings him in. He starts the inning clean , unless their is a lefty up and he wants to mix/match with Ross or the awful Abad. jmo I get it. Farrell loses both ways. It always backfires. I agree with you on some stuff , In the long run , it's hard to win like this... bullpen.. The sticky part that is 3 straight one run losses to DET...9-8 and BACK2BACK 4-3's

[Dojji]

There is no way for the manager to look good when a reliever blows the game. Because there's always a different reliever he COULD have brought in, and of course there's absolutely NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER that that other reliever also blows the exact same game in the exact same way. We know that because reasons.

[Wade Boggs]

There is no way for the manager to look good when a reliever blows the game. Because there's always a different reliever he COULD have brought in, and of course there's absolutely NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER that that other reliever also blows the exact same game in the exact same way. We know that because reasons.

 

Agree.. But if he wanted to rest Ziegler, which he did , then don't bring him in at all. Yesterday it was on him. Nobody would have said one word if Ziegler blew the 8th yesterday. Farrell is in a tight spot I understand. But yesterday was basic. You have 2 closers in the pen and you go to Taz who I think is not a 100%, but that is besides the point.. hey, it's good debate talk. Right?

[Dojji]

Why bring him in at all? Because it was still a winnable game. There was no point in which that game was not imminently winnable. Why bring a junktime guy? There was every chance that game could have been salvaged even after Tazawa puked all over himself and the rest of the pen couldn't clean it up.

 

If Farrell had brought in a white-flag pitcher with only 1 run down against a team with a mediocre pen such as Detroit, he would have been murdered for THAT as well.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Dojji

[Wade Boggs]

Why bring him in at all? Because it was still a winnable game. There was no point in which that game was not imminently winnable. Why bring a junktime guy? There was every chance that game could have been salvaged even after Tazawa puked all over himself and the rest of the pen couldn't clean it up.

 

If Farrell had brought in a white-flag pitcher with only 1 run down against a team with a mediocre pen such as Detroit, he would have been murdered for THAT as well.

 

That's not what I'm saying. He keeps bringing in Ziegler where it's hard for him to always get out of. I know the game is still winnable. I never said wave the white flag or said junk time pitcher. Z for the top8.. If he gets out of it, Kimbrel to close it. If he blows up, then bring in the combo of Tazawa and Hembree, to take the pounding and save the rest of the pen.. If it worked out like that. Why bring him in at all? Because it looked liked the manager was trying to rest him and changed his mind. I'm not a manager hater, but that use of the bullpen was sketchy at best. Jmo.

[Maxbialystock]

As others have pointed out, Tazawa had better numbers than Ziegler against the guys due up in the 8th and he was well rested. When Farrell sent Ziegler in, the game was still winnable, but Ziegler walked the first guy he faced after getting an 0-2 count. I put that on the pitcher, not the manager. Same goes for the other guy he walked to bring in the winning run--after an 0-2 count.

 

The simple fact remains: our bullpen stinks. My goodness, it was barely more than a week ago when our high priced closer walked 4 men in the 9th and had to be bailed out by Barnes. And the very next time Barnes goes into a game, he brings in guys left on base by the prior reliever and gives up another run of his own (actually, the guy who relieved him did that).

[Thunder]

There is no way for the manager to look good when a reliever blows the game. Because there's always a different reliever he COULD have brought in, and of course there's absolutely NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER that that other reliever also blows the exact same game in the exact same way. We know that because reasons.

 

I completely agree. I believe that we can't completely put the blame on Farrell for some of these blown bullpen leads, but at the same time, I am starting to question everything about him, not just his decision making. I look back to last year. When he was on leave for his leukemia, the team was notably better than the last place product they fielded for the rest of the season.

[reYoukilis]

I completely agree. I believe that we can't completely put the blame on Farrell for some of these blown bullpen leads, but at the same time, I am starting to question everything about him, not just his decision making. I look back to last year. When he was on leave for his leukemia, the team was notably better than the last place product they fielded for the rest of the season.

I thought they got better to show support for Farrells leukemia. Bad play can be because of complacency too and Farrells illness was like a slap in the face.

[Dojji]

I completely agree. I believe that we can't completely put the blame on Farrell for some of these blown bullpen leads, but at the same time, I am starting to question everything about him, not just his decision making. I look back to last year. When he was on leave for his leukemia, the team was notably better than the last place product they fielded for the rest of the season.

 

And the fact that that stretch of games happened during no-pressure time when we were already out of contention and were filtering young players into the lineup a lot more often, had nothing to do with why those games were so much better, no it was definitely all Lovullo. Again, because reasons.

 

If it wasn't for a different face behind the bench we would have simply called that run a late surge by a team that couldn't put their crap together until it was too late. Because that's really all it was.

[S5Dewey]

And the fact that that stretch of games happened during no-pressure time when we were already out of contention and were filtering young players into the lineup a lot more often, had nothing to do with why those games were so much better, no it was definitely all Lovullo. Again, because reasons.

 

If it wasn't for a different face behind the bench we would have simply called that run a late surge by a team that couldn't put their crap together until it was too late. Because that's really all it was.

 

I'll say this. They were a lot more fun to watch - as well as being more likeable- after JF left the team. And I'm not assessing blame on Farrell.

[southpaw777]

I tend to not believe much of what Farrell says...sounds like front office speak everytime a mic is put in front of him. IMHO, he doesnt have very good instincs for whats going on during a game. Most managers will make a couple head-scratching moves during a year, but Farrell has turned it into an artform in Boston. Some moves are completely undefendable. He has been able to be a great director of scouting in the past and has proved to be a solid pitching coach. as far as a Manager? I just dont care for his "style" of Managing here in Boston anymore.

[Elktonnick]

I tend to not believe much of what Farrell says...sounds like front office speak everytime a mic is put in front of him. IMHO, he doesnt have very good instincs for whats going on during a game. Most managers will make a couple head-scratching moves during a year, but Farrell has turned it into an artform in Boston. Some moves are completely undefendable. He has been able to be a great director of scouting in the past and has proved to be a solid pitching coach. as far as a Manager? I just dont care for his "style" of Managing here in Boston anymore.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. The problem we fans generally have with Farrell is what we see on the field. What we don't see is what is going on behind the scenes and in the clubhouse. JF obviously has his strengths. His weakness is his in game management and decision-making. These are quite evident for all to see.

 

What I find interesting is the increased criticism of some of his game moves by paid NESN employees like Lyons, Eckersley, Remy and O'Brien. I simply don't recall such criticism in years past at least not with the frequency we have seen recently.

 

I do think Farrell is likely to be back next year, however, baring a complete collapse and a clear series of mishaps on his part which results in the Sox missing the playoffs entirely.

[Kimmi]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 12h12 hours ago

 

#RedSox win, 10-2. They have won seven of eight and are a half-game out of first. Stupid Farrell.

[Dojji]

I'll say this. They were a lot more fun to watch - as well as being more likeable- after JF left the team. And I'm not assessing blame on Farrell.

 

Yes -- because Farrell's departure happened to coincide with the time of year when a basement team starts seriously playing its young players more and getting them experience for next year. I'm speaking of guys like Shaw, Bradley, Wright, etc...

[Kingface]

JF is not the best manager.....we can all agree on that. However he has done a solid job this year shuffling the lineup around, managing the starters IP, making sure his players are playing when they have the best matchups and keeping with the more aggressive style of baseball this year. I see no reason to keep the hang mans noose on him.....

[sk7326]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 12h12 hours ago

 

#RedSox win, 10-2. They have won seven of eight and are a half-game out of first. Stupid Farrell.

 

He clearly has not integrated Benintendi seamlessly or anything

[Kimmi]

JF is not the best manager.....we can all agree on that. However he has done a solid job this year shuffling the lineup around, managing the starters IP, making sure his players are playing when they have the best matchups and keeping with the more aggressive style of baseball this year. I see no reason to keep the hang mans noose on him.....

 

I agree with you King. One of the beat writer's made the point that Dombrowski almost always travels with the team, and he sees first hand the job that Farrell is doing day in and day out, both on and off the field. If Dombrowski thinks that Farrell needs to be fired, he will be fired. Until then, I'm not going to worry about Farrell.

[Kimmi]

He clearly has not integrated Benintendi seamlessly or anything

 

Yup. I was a little critical of Farrell not playing Beni regularly when he was first called up, but it seems that Farrell knew what he was doing.

[Wade Boggs]

lol He may go with Young maybe in the lineup tonight, he might have to make a tough call. But if he went with Young , I can understand the thinking.

[Maxbialystock]

Kimmi makes a great point about Dombrowski--he travels with the team and must know the kind of job Farrell is doing.

 

If the guys in the booth are criticizing specific moves, to me they are just showing their ignorance. Yes, pinchrunning with Wright was a mistake, and there have no doubt been 2 or 3 others, but overall the decision-making has been rational.

 

Southpaw777 says Farrell was a good pitching coach but is not a good manager, but 90% of the criticism is about pitching changes. As someone quoted Whitey Herzog, "the difference between a great manager and a lousy one is a great bullpen"--or something like that.

[User Name]

You think Lou Merloni, Dennis Eckersley and Jerry Remy are ignorant? Those guys have forgotten more baseball than we'll ever know. They criticize specific decisions to create commentary for us, the viewing (or listening) audience, and are rarely wrong. Give it a rest.

[sk7326]

Kimmi makes a great point about Dombrowski--he travels with the team and must know the kind of job Farrell is doing.

 

If the guys in the booth are criticizing specific moves, to me they are just showing their ignorance. Yes, pinchrunning with Wright was a mistake, and there have no doubt been 2 or 3 others, but overall the decision-making has been rational.

 

Southpaw777 says Farrell was a good pitching coach but is not a good manager, but 90% of the criticism is about pitching changes. As someone quoted Whitey Herzog, "the difference between a great manager and a lousy one is a great bullpen"--or something like that.

 

You are running counter to what television IS. If you are analyzing plays and strategy - at some point that SHOULD come into second-guessing ... that's the whole point.