Referendum on John Farrell

[Spudboy]

You have never, ever thrown a baseball from a pitcher's mound have you?

 

Jacko broke it down.

[mvp 78]

Despite the workload from earlier in the season, Koji was rested and available to pitch.

 

His body broke down from overuse. It's as simple as that.

[Dojji]

His body broke down from overuse. It's as simple as that.

 

It's nowhere near as simple as that, and it never is. You are grossly oversimplifying the situation.

 

We knew going in that Koji would probably be good for at least one trip to the DL sometime this year. this is not that much of a surprise regardless of his usage pattern.

[mvp 78]

If he was "good for a DL stint," why not manage his innings better to get more out of him.

[Dojji]

Not sure what you're implying. They've gotten plenty out of Koji. Once he comes back off the DL he should be alright for awhile.

[Kimmi]

His body broke down from overuse. It's as simple as that.

 

As Dojji said, it's not as simple as that.

 

At any rate, my post was about being okay with Farrell putting Koji into that game in that particular situation. As I said, he was rested and he was available to pitch. And as we saw last night, a 4 run lead can disappear in the blink of an eye. It was important to nail down the win in the opening game of the home stand.

 

If his body broke down from overuse, it was not due to being put into that game.

[User Name]

But that's the game where he got injured. I went back and checked video out, and Jacko's right. Koji stopped his arm and body violently post-release and that lead to the tear. The wear and tear caused by pitching on the human body is not a zero-sum game. Fatigue and fraying accumulates when prolonged use happens during any stretch of the season and it can persist for a while, even for the rest of the year. The end result are injuries like this one.

[S5Dewey]

But that's the game where he got injured. I went back and checked video out, and Jacko's right. Koji stopped his arm and body violently post-release and that lead to the tear. The wear and tear caused by pitching on the human body is not a zero-sum game. Fatigue and fraying accumulates when prolonged use happens during any stretch of the season and it can persist for a while, even for the rest of the year. The end result are injuries like this one.

 

A tad off topic here, but that's why umpires should be VERY judicious in allowing a batter to call a late time-out. I've long been an advocate of the pitcher "accidentally" throwing AT the batter when that happens. Not head-hunting, but at the hip area. Send the batter the message that if he's going to risk an injury to you then he needs to be aware of what might happen.

[greenwell]

If he was "good for a DL stint," why not manage his innings better to get more out of him.

 

Is it really worth a roster spot for a guy with a 4.5 ERA who can't pitch 2 innings a week?

[Dojji]

But that's the game where he got injured.

 

Is it? It's the game where the injury became obvious. Is it really the game where he first became injured? Do we know that for sure? With muscle tears, the damage could have been initially sustained awhile ago, and exacerbated by the motion of pitching over a period of time. Big league players play through a lot of muscle pain and incidental bumps and scrapes. Who knows when the damage was really sustained.

 

I've noticed that they've used Uehara a lot more tenatively in the last few weeks, and the team's response to Kimbrel's injury was to bring in Zeigler rather than lean on Koji. I think it's quite possible that Koji has been a hurting unit for awhile, but trying to pitch through it until yesterday when he couldn't go any further.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Dojji

[User Name]

Is it? It's the game where the injury became obvious. Is it really the game where he first became injured? Do we know that for sure? With muscle tears, the damage could have been initially sustained awhile ago, and exacerbated by the motion of pitching over a period of time. Big league players play through a lot of muscle pain and incidental bumps and scrapes. Who knows when the damage was really sustained.

 

I've noticed that they've used Uehara a lot more tenatively in the last few weeks, and the team's response to Kimbrel's injury was to bring in Zeigler rather than lean on Koji. I think it's quite possible that Koji has been a hurting unit for awhile, but trying to pitch through it until yesterday when he couldn't go any further.

 

It's unlikely that, with this specific injury, there was prior history. But perhaps a pre-existing injury to another body part is what created the imbalance that led to this one, so your statement has logic behind it.

[Maxbialystock]

His body broke down from overuse. It's as simple as that.

 

Truer words were never spoken. Kimbrel and all those other relievers on the DL have had the same fate. Farrell seems intent on wrecking the bullpen by constantly sending those guys out to pitch when they need rest and lots of it. I've heard rumors that before going out there the last time, Uehara was on the phone begging Farrell not to send him out yet again. I understand the UN is looking into the possibility of human rights abuses. When will this Red Sox nation nightmare finally end?

[cp176]

Is it really worth a roster spot for a guy with a 4.5 ERA who can't pitch 2 innings a week?

 

I'm thinking that maybe it isn't. Everyone wants strong, durable pitchers in the bullpen. We are seeing a ton of overuse injuries as well as others recently. Since Holt and the rest of the boys aren't out there in the bullpen, I'm not sure blaming Farrell for the latest injury works. I wonder what his bench coach and heir apparent had to say? Koji is a fan favorite whom we need if he can pitch. If he has to babied out in the bullpen, think we have to keep looking for durability. My question - what to hell is going on with Kelly? As near as I can tell, he is currently wasting bullets in the minors. If there is any blame to cast because of a 40 year relief pitcher's injury, i'm blaming our starting staff - all 35 of them. Not sure that is an accurate count(lol).

[Dojji]

Every bullpen needs to be able to abuse its relievers from time to time. You just can't ration out appearances the way MVP says we should. You don't know when you're going to have a bad stretch from your starters and need 4+ innings a night for 2-3 nights in a row. Managing the bullpen so that no one was ever overtaxed would be an act of epic baseball genius, and anyone who could predict the future well enough to pull it off in realtime is probably making a killing in the stock market.

[illinoisredsox]

Every bullpen needs to be able to abuse its relievers from time to time. You just can't ration out appearances the way MVP says we should. You don't know when you're going to have a bad stretch from your starters and need 4+ innings a night for 2-3 nights in a row. Managing the bullpen so that no one was ever overtaxed would be an act of epic baseball genius, and anyone who could predict the future well enough to pull it off in realtime is probably making a killing in the stock market.

 

Actually, you hit on the answer. You just have to leave the starter in for 6 innings minimum every game, no matter what.

 

Of course, that leads to other issues, but it does allow one to ration bullpen innings.

[Bellhorn04]

Actually, you hit on the answer. You just have to leave the starter in for 6 innings minimum every game, no matter what.

 

Of course, that leads to other issues, but it does allow one to ration bullpen innings.

 

Totally impossible.

[User Name]

He was being facetious.

[Bellhorn04]

I figured so, but it was quite subtly done.

[Kimmi]

I figured so, but it was quite subtly done.

 

The point stands though. Farrell cannot be blamed for the 'overuse' of Koji when the starters aren't consistently going 6+ innings.

[mvp 78]

The point stands though. Farrell cannot be blamed for the 'overuse' of Koji when the starters aren't consistently going 6+ innings.

 

Was Koji the only guy in the bullpen or were other arms underused? Was was Ross wasting away on the bench in June?

[Dojji]

Not every situation in which Uehara was pitching is a situation in which I'd want Ross pitching. Barnes is my better pick for an alternative in late innings, and Barnes did see a lot of use in that time.

 

For all the hatred Farrell gets for his "abuse" of Koji and tazawa, take a look at Barnes' workload. He's on pace for nearly 90 innings pitched out of the bullpen. That is a TON. And guess what, any late inning work that isn't going to Koji would have been heaped onto Barnes since he's our best middle reliever.

 

The fact is that the entire bullpen has been overworked by the struggles of the Bastard Batallion. Every one of our RP's have pitched more than they ideally should. Those innings have to be pitched by SOMEONE.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Dojji

[User Name]

Barnes is a very young, converted starter who pitches mostly in low-leverage situations. Apples to oranges comparison.

[greenwell]

Was Koji the only guy in the bullpen or were other arms underused? Was was Ross wasting away on the bench in June?

 

Koji was the right choice. He hadn't pitched in the previous 2 days. A 4 run lead with 3 days of rest is the perfect place for him. He's not that good, why waste one of your better relievers when Koji should have been well rested by then. When he was putting up a 2ish ERA, I was fine with babying him. With a 4.5 ERA it's not worth it.

[southpaw777]

Not every situation in which Uehara was pitching is a situation in which I'd want Ross pitching. Barnes is my better pick for an alternative in late innings, and Barnes did see a lot of use in that time.

 

For all the hatred Farrell gets for his "abuse" of Koji and tazawa, take a look at Barnes' workload. He's on pace for nearly 90 innings pitched out of the bullpen. That is a TON. And guess what, any late inning work that isn't going to Koji would have been heaped onto Barnes since he's our best middle reliever.

 

The fact is that the entire bullpen has been overworked by the struggles of the Bastard Batallion. Every one of our RP's have pitched more than they ideally should. Those innings have to be pitched by SOMEONE.

 

Barnes is younger and was just a starter a little over a year ago so im guessing the Ip for him may be slightly different than a 41yo. Or even Taz. Farrell overworks some of his guys. He uses tham a lot when he doesnt need to.

[southpaw777]

Koji was the right choice. He hadn't pitched in the previous 2 days. A 4 run lead with 3 days of rest is the perfect place for him. He's not that good, why waste one of your better relievers when Koji should have been well rested by then. When he was putting up a 2ish ERA, I was fine with babying him. With a 4.5 ERA it's not worth it.

 

You dont use him in that situation because hes now your closer at 41yo. You save his bullets whenever you can. Hes been doing this a long time, so a bit of a rest for him is probably better than say someone like Barnes.

[Bellhorn04]

I'll just repeat myself on one point. I think it's totally appropriate to use your closer in a 4 run game, especially in Fenway.

[mvp 78]

You dont use him in that situation because hes now your closer at 41yo. You save his bullets whenever you can. Hes been doing this a long time, so a bit of a rest for him is probably better than say someone like Barnes.

 

Basically this.

 

It has nothing to do with him being "well rested." It's about him being overused for the whole season. Giving him a few days off doesn't fix that.

[Bellhorn04]

Funny how Koji looked probably the best he's looked all year in his 3 previous appearances before this. Did anybody notice any issues when he closed the 2 wins against the Yanks on 21 total pitches?

[greenwell]

Basically this.

 

It has nothing to do with him being "well rested." It's about him being overused for the whole season. Giving him a few days off doesn't fix that.

 

I can understand saving your closer, especially if he's good. I don't think they intended for Koji to be the closer for the rest of the year, that's why they got Ziegler. He would not be an effective closer if you have to monitor his workload that much. It seems to me the perfect way to get the most out of him is find your spots to pitch him without using him more than 2 days in a row or resting him too many days in a row. He's not effective when he has too many days off.

[mvp 78]

I can understand saving your closer, especially if he's good. I don't think they intended for Koji to be the closer for the rest of the year, that's why they got Ziegler. He would not be an effective closer if you have to monitor his workload that much. It seems to me the perfect way to get the most out of him is find your spots to pitch him without using him more than 2 days in a row or resting him too many days in a row. He's not effective when he has too many days off.

 

It looks like they didn't find his spots though and just threw him out there willy nilly.