Referendum on John Farrell

[Elktonnick]

I do have questions about Farrell and the coaching staff in regards to the number of underperformances that have plagued this team the past 3 years. That said, there is no indication that he has lost the players or that there is any discord in the clubhouse.

 

If he hadn't been sick when Dombrowski was hired, Farrell would have been fired last year IMO. Whether there is discord in the clubhouse or not, the fact is this team has played extraordinarily sloppy baseball the last six weeks and that is an indication of poor morale.

[cp176]

If he hadn't been sick when Dombrowski was hired, Farrell would have been fired last year IMO. Whether there is discord in the clubhouse or not, the fact is this team has played extraordinarily sloppy baseball the last six weeks and that is an indication of poor morale.

 

Bad baseball ultimately might lead to bad morale. There is absolutely no certainty that when the baseball is bad that it indicates bad morale. That is a stretch that I can see someone who has never really coached would make. there has been zero indication that Farrell has lost the clubhouse. You want him gone as do many others I'm sure. Guess you think that it might make a difference. Many people just don't see it that way. Personally, I'm not beating the drum claiming that he is a great coach but firing him and promoting Farrell jr. (imo) wouldn't make much of a difference.

[Kimmi]

If he hadn't been sick when Dombrowski was hired, Farrell would have been fired last year IMO. Whether there is discord in the clubhouse or not, the fact is this team has played extraordinarily sloppy baseball the last six weeks and that is an indication of poor morale.

 

You are probably correct that Farrell would have been fired last year if he had not been sick. That said, you are making assumptions about the team's morale that really have no merit.

[Kimmi]

Bad baseball ultimately might lead to bad morale. There is absolutely no certainty that when the baseball is bad that it indicates bad morale. That is a stretch that I can see someone who has never really coached would make. there has been zero indication that Farrell has lost the clubhouse. You want him gone as do many others I'm sure. Guess you think that it might make a difference. Many people just don't see it that way. Personally, I'm not beating the drum claiming that he is a great coach but firing him and promoting Farrell jr. (imo) wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

Agreed CP.

[Elktonnick]

Bad baseball ultimately might lead to bad morale. There is absolutely no certainty that when the baseball is bad that it indicates bad morale. That is a stretch that I can see someone who has never really coached would make. there has been zero indication that Farrell has lost the clubhouse. You want him gone as do many others I'm sure. Guess you think that it might make a difference. Many people just don't see it that way. Personally, I'm not beating the drum claiming that he is a great coach but firing him and promoting Farrell jr. (imo) wouldn't make much of a difference.

Oh! but I have coached sports and ran large non sports organizations before I retired. I know poor morale when I see it. Webster defines morale as: the confidence, enthusiasm, and discipline of a person or group at a particular time. What we have witnessed over the past six weeks clearly falls within the definition of a unit with poor morale. Whether he has lost the clubhouse is immaterial. He is still a lousy manager.

[a700hitter]

Oh! but I have coached sports and ran large non sports organizations before I retired. I know poor morale when I see it. Webster defines morale as: the confidence, enthusiasm, and discipline of a person or group at a particular time. What we have witnessed over the past six weeks clearly falls within the definition of a unit with poor morale. Whether he has lost the clubhouse is immaterial. He is still a lousy manager.

Big Papi did state this week that no one is goingto care if his heelblows out if they keep getting their asses kicked. That was a surprisingly negative comment from Ortiz.

[Elktonnick]

People misunderstand the term morale when it comes to the workplace. They mistakenly confuse morale with being happy in your job or with your boss. A group can be happy with their jobs and with their boss and still have lousy morale. At the same time a group can hate their boss and their jobs and have high morale. Morale means unit cohesion discipline and effectiveness. In WW2 the troops may have hated Gen Patton but the units he commanded generally had high morale.

[cp176]

People misunderstand the term morale when it comes to the workplace. They mistakenly confuse morale with being happy in your job or with your boss. A group can be happy with their jobs and with their boss and still have lousy morale. At the same time a group can hate their boss and their jobs and have high morale. Morale means unit cohesion discipline and effectiveness. In WW2 the troops may have hated Gen Patton but the units he commanded generally had high morale.

 

I'm sure as hell not going to argue with you. You made a definitive statement that bad baseball is a direct indicator of bad morale. the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. That is a ******** statement and anybody who has actually coached - possibly I should have said and been good at what they were doing - knows that it is. Firing Farrell might in fact happen. Until the pitchers pitch better, they won't be any better. If he has a strength, it is his personal relationships with his players.

[Spudboy]

I happen to agree that Farrell waited too long to pull Wright, knowing how he struggled in his other rain soaked outing. However, calling him one of the worst managers in baseball and saying he is inept at in game management is quite a stretch. He makes mistakes, or at least what we fans deem to be mistakes, but all managers do.

 

I completely agree with this post.

 

The thing is, Farrell does his job in the Boston market where every minute detail of even the seemingly least significant matters is scrutinized and dissected for days and even weeks and months.

 

Once one thing happens it becomes a theme and all of a sudden you have "Francoma" mindsets.

 

Farrell is no where near as inept as his many detractors would like to believe. I, like most ardent fans, scratch my head at what he does ( and in the case of allowing Wright to continue ) does not do.

 

Unfortunately once he began to receive criticism it all began to snowball. Now he is a goner.

 

Where is Eric Wedge when we need him?

[Spudboy]

Bad baseball ultimately might lead to bad morale. There is absolutely no certainty that when the baseball is bad that it indicates bad morale. That is a stretch that I can see someone who has never really coached would make. there has been zero indication that Farrell has lost the clubhouse. You want him gone as do many others I'm sure. Guess you think that it might make a difference. Many people just don't see it that way. Personally, I'm not beating the drum claiming that he is a great coach but firing him and promoting Farrell jr. (imo) wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

I second this.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

I say fire farrell and bring back valentine!!

[Bellhorn04]

I say fire farrell and bring back valentine!!

 

That's about as likely as you guys bringing back Billy Martin.

[Elktonnick]

You say you aren't going to argue with me then proceed to argue with me. To be precise I said extraordinarily sloppy baseball is a sign of poor morale which it is . Sloppy baseball is a sign of ill-discipline. Ill discipline is a sign of poor morale. Anyone who has managed for results a large number of people over many years would know that.

 

It isn't a question of the sox being sloppy in isolated cases but repeatedly over several weeks. How good a coach I was is irrelevant. It isn't about me. The ******** is watching an inept manager and Farrell is inept.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

That's about as likely as you guys bringing back Billy Martin.

 

At least Martin was a helluva manager.

[Kimmi]

I completely agree with this post.

 

The thing is, Farrell does his job in the Boston market where every minute detail of even the seemingly least significant matters is scrutinized and dissected for days and even weeks and months.

 

Once one thing happens it becomes a theme and all of a sudden you have "Francoma" mindsets.

 

Farrell is no where near as inept as his many detractors would like to believe. I, like most ardent fans, scratch my head at what he does ( and in the case of allowing Wright to continue ) does not do.

 

Unfortunately once he began to receive criticism it all began to snowball. Now he is a goner.

 

Where is Eric Wedge when we need him?

 

Agreed.

 

Of course, many of the fans who criticize Farrell relentlessly (and Francona before him) are the same fans who wanted Bobby Valentine. Enough said.

[Maxbialystock]

You say you aren't going to argue with me then proceed to argue with me. To be precise I said extraordinarily sloppy baseball is a sign of poor morale which it is . Sloppy baseball is a sign of ill-discipline. Ill discipline is a sign of poor morale. Anyone who has managed for results a large number of people over many years would know that.

 

It isn't a question of the sox being sloppy in isolated cases but repeatedly over several weeks. How good a coach I was is irrelevant. It isn't about me. The ******** is watching an inept manager and Farrell is inept.

 

Watching the movie Patton sure as hell doesn't make you knowledgeable about military discipline and morale in wartime. You and I have different definitions of sloppy too. Our biggest problem isn't sloppiness but terrible pitching and periodic lulls in what is otherwise a great hitting lineup. I am by no means letting Farrell off the hook because he is ultimately responsible for the overall performance and especially the W-L record.

[yankonyankee]

Elktonnick - I can appreciate a man on a mission. OCF: Operation CAN Farrell. Here's the thing, though. Sox need pitching. Focusing on the manager is like a guy who finds out his wife's got herpes from f$%#ing another man, and instead of confronting her about it, he decides to clean the house - you know, becomes mr. clean for a day, shaves his head, puts on a white t-shirt, lifts some dumbbells a couple of times to get a pump, and then tackles that mold, scrubs the sh$% out of the mildew, even gets those hard to reach places between the tiles, and then takes a big sigh of relief after the job's done. But his wife still has herpes on top of being unfaithful. Go ahead, can the manager. I'm a Yankee fan. I'd enjoy the circus. But the pitching problem's still there. Cleaning the house is easy. Dealing with a dirty wife isn't.

 

By the way, the Sox win a few games and the Robespierres go back to slumbering; the reign of terror with the blood flowing in the streets can wait for another day.

[mvp 78]

So we can't make more than one change at a time? Can't bring in new pitching and fire the manager?

[Elktonnick]

Watching the movie Patton sure as hell doesn't make you knowledgeable about military discipline and morale in wartime. You and I have different definitions of sloppy too. Our biggest problem isn't sloppiness but terrible pitching and periodic lulls in what is otherwise a great hitting lineup. I am by no means le setting Farrell off the hook because he is ultimately responsible for the overall performance and especially the W-L record.

No watching Patton doesn't but 6 years as an NCO plus a 2 year civilian tour in the five sided puzzle palace on the Potomac in SOLIC plus a three year tour in El Salvador during that civil war plus surviving an Embassy bombing in Kuwait which killed four of our Foreign Service national employees does give me a first hand point of view.

[User Name]

So you've done everything: Been in the military, managed people, traveled the world. You, sir, are full of s***.

[SoxnCycles]

You say you aren't going to argue with me then proceed to argue with me. To be precise I said extraordinarily sloppy baseball is a sign of poor morale which it is . Sloppy baseball is a sign of ill-discipline. Ill discipline is a sign of poor morale. Anyone who has managed for results a large number of people over many years would know that.

 

It isn't a question of the sox being sloppy in isolated cases but repeatedly over several weeks. How good a coach I was is irrelevant. It isn't about me. The ******** is watching an inept manager and Farrell is inept.

 

If you need to exaggerate to prove a point, you don't have one.

They haven't played sloppy for "several weeks" it's been two weeks at the most.

 

I can just as easily say that the it's a result of the pitching staff spotting the opposing team 2-3 run at the start of every game is causing the team to press, offensively and defensively.

That's just as plausible as this "poor morale" nonsense.

If the players have poor morale, it's because they're constantly playing from behind.

 

You've been reading too many "Culture of Losing" posts from Fred.

Edited July 5, 2016 by SoxnCycles

[User Name]

"It's the pitching, stupid!"

[a700hitter]

"It's the pitching, stupid!"

Yep!!!!

[Maxbialystock]

No watching Patton doesn't but 6 years as an NCO plus a 2 year civilian tour in the five sided puzzle palace on the Potomac in SOLIC plus a three year tour in El Salvador during that civil war plus surviving an Embassy bombing in Kuwait which killed four of our Foreign Service national employees does give me a first hand point of view.

 

Gotta love NCO's, the backbone of the armed services and what truly makes them better than those of other countries. But my objection remains: Patton, especially the one in that splendid movie, isn't the right reference point. In the movie he keeps saying that he trained those guys, but he actually did not. They were all trained in BCT and AIT and, once in theater, by their immediate leaders, NCO's like you. His two great strengths were his firm grounding in military history and tactics, made even stronger by his regimental command (light tanks--1917 French Renault) in World War I and by the slow period between WW I and WW II, and his ability and willingness to go forward and challenge his subordinate leaders. Those helped after D-Day, but he was only so-so (Bradley was better) in N.Africa and Sicily. An MLB manager is more like a platoon leader than a general, on top of which he has to deal with guys who make more money and who have a pretty powerful union. While a manager can delegate coaching and teaching, he makes most of the big decisions himself, probably with input from his coaches. He can fire and fire coaches, but would be hard pressed to fire them up.

[Maxbialystock]

So we can't make more than one change at a time? Can't bring in new pitching and fire the manager?

 

Johnny one note. I watch the games too, and I just don't think we are at that point. You like to blame him for specific in-game decisions, and I think his rationale for all of them is pretty good, so I focus on the players.

[mvp 78]

Johnny one note. I watch the games too, and I just don't think we are at that point. You like to blame him for specific in-game decisions, and I think his rationale for all of them is pretty good, so I focus on the players.

 

How is my response "one note?" It's more "one note" to state that we need to fix the pitching and not worry about anything else until the pitching is settled.

[Spudboy]

I'm like a700. A Johnny three note.

 

Pitching, Pitching, Pitching.

[Maxbialystock]

How is my response "one note?" It's more "one note" to state that we need to fix the pitching and not worry about anything else until the pitching is settled.

 

Look at your mantra down below: Trade Pedroia. Fire Farrell. Put Buchholz on Waivers. So call it three notes, but it's the same three notes every single time you post. You would do far better with Spudboy's mantra, "pitching, pitching, pitching." I frankly think trading Pedroia would not be smart and certainly wouldn't help this year--unless, of course, his departure brought back a front-line pitcher, which ain't going to happen. I am not against firing Farrell ever, just against doing it now because he ain't the problem.

[FredLynn]

Look at your mantra down below: Trade Pedroia. Fire Farrell. Put Buchholz on Waivers. So call it three notes, but it's the same three notes every single time you post. You would do far better with Spudboy's mantra, "pitching, pitching, pitching." I frankly think trading Pedroia would not be smart and certainly wouldn't help this year--unless, of course, his departure brought back a front-line pitcher, which ain't going to happen. I am not against firing Farrell ever, just against doing it now because he ain't the problem.

 

He isn't the whole problem; he isn't even most of the problem. But he IS part of the problem.

[mvp 78]

Look at your mantra down below: Trade Pedroia. Fire Farrell. Put Buchholz on Waivers. So call it three notes, but it's the same three notes every single time you post. You would do far better with Spudboy's mantra, "pitching, pitching, pitching." I frankly think trading Pedroia would not be smart and certainly wouldn't help this year--unless, of course, his departure brought back a front-line pitcher, which ain't going to happen. I am not against firing Farrell ever, just against doing it now because he ain't the problem.

 

If you think I only post about Pedroia (I hardly ever post about him), Buchholz and Farrell, then you haven't been paying attention... Which would actually make a lot of sense.