A Realistic View at 2016

[User Name]

When you can tell me what Ortiz failed for when it was a banned substance I will take the stance that I don't want him on my team. No ped users on my team is my stance. You don't need to try and explain how I'm "wrong". You can have your own stance and welcome all the cheaters to the sox if you want. That ain't me.

 

I'm not trying to explain that "you're wrong". I'm trying to explain the double standard, which is there.

[Emp9]

I know I'm pretty hard-ass about this and I don't care that others may think so.

 

Here's my problem with Cruz.

2011 $3.65M 29 HR

2012 5.00M 24 HR

2013 10.50M 27 HR in 109 games. (Was linked to biogensis scandal and served 50 game suspension)

2014 8.0 M 40 HR (turned down a $14m QO from the Rangers. Shame on the Rangers for offering it to him. Shame on him for thinking he could get MORE!))

2015 14.5 M 44 HR

2016 14.5M On pace for ~45 HR

 

Issue #1 with me: I could be very contrite for $14.5M

Issue #2 with me: Either he suddenly learned how to hit during his 50 game suspension or the effects of the PED's are still with him.

Issue #3 with me: He continues to reap some pretty significant rewards for his PED-induced 2014 season and I'd prefer the Sox not reward him for it.

 

So no thank you.

 

Ok, ok... So Matt Joyce then? Got it:)

[Slasher9]

I'm not trying to explain that "you're wrong". I'm trying to explain the double standard, which is there.

 

no. it's not. i dont want a proven PED user on my team that cheats the system. we know what Braun failed for. we know what Cruz failed for. we know what peralta failed for. they all served suspensions for cheating. when you can prove to me what David Ortiz failed for and remind me when he served his suspension for cheating the game i will make my decision based on that. thanks.

[moonslav59]

Nice start by Price. We need him to be the ace we all hoped he'd be.

 

OPS+ Sox leaders:

 

193 Ortiz

154 JBJ

142 Bogey

133 Young

126 Betts

114 Pedey

107 Shaw

94 HanRam

93 Swihart

76 Holt

46 Vaz

29 Hanigan

 

We've had quite a few player contribute with plentiful RBIs this year. I know some of you hate to use the word "pace", but here's what some Sox players are on pace for this year in RBIs:

 

Aprox

145 Ortiz

120 Betts

110 Bogey

110 JBJ

90 Ramirez

85 Shaw

70 Pedey

 

We may end up with three 30 HR guys: Ortiz, Betts & JBJ!

[Slasher9]

Price definitely looking like an ace yesterday. maybe the powder blues flashed him back to his devil ray days.....

[moonslav59]

LOL. Speaking of the rays, I read somewhere than Crawford may be a heading back to TB.

[User Name]

no. it's not. i dont want a proven PED user on my team that cheats the system. we know what Braun failed for. we know what Cruz failed for. we know what peralta failed for. they all served suspensions for cheating. when you can prove to me what David Ortiz failed for and remind me when he served his suspension for cheating the game i will make my decision based on that. thanks.

 

The double standard is right there. The fact that he failed a test is common knowledge. It was not forbidden at the time, but he failed the test. By your "standards" we should get rid of Ortiz. Be consistent.

[Bellhorn04]

LOL. Speaking of the rays, I read somewhere than Crawford may be a heading back to TB.

 

Might be a good pickup for them.

[User Name]

Next thing you know, he's f***ing our s*** up again.

[mvp 78]

The double standard is right there. The fact that he failed a test is common knowledge. It was not forbidden at the time, but he failed the test. By your "standards" we should get rid of Ortiz. Be consistent.

 

It's not that he's simply a cheater, he's our cheater. Each team gets to have one.

 

Red Sox: Ortiz

Bruins: Marchand

Patriots: Brady

Celtics: Red

[mvp 78]

Next thing you know, he's f***ing our s*** up again.

 

He's going to break Otis Nixon's record of 6 stolen bases in a game if Swihart is behind the plate.

[Slasher9]

The double standard is right there. The fact that he failed a test is common knowledge. It was not forbidden at the time, but he failed the test. By your "standards" we should get rid of Ortiz. Be consistent.

 

those arent my standards. why dont you take your own advice that you constantly spit at others and dont tell others what they think.

my issue is with players that were caught using PED's and were suspended for them. i have not named a single person that was on the 2003 supposed list leaked by a fly by night website. so dont tell my what my "standards" are. hows that for consistent.

[Slasher9]

LOL. Speaking of the rays, I read somewhere than Crawford may be a heading back to TB.

 

might be just the thing he needs to get his game back. but it may be too late for him....

[Spudboy]

Will Tampa really be willing to assume the remainder of his contract?????

[Bellhorn04]

Will Tampa really be willing to assume the remainder of his contract?????

 

Dodgers have to pay that. I think Tampa can sign him for league minimum (?)

[mvp 78]

Dodgers have to pay that. I think Tampa can sign him for league minimum (?)

 

This is correct.

[User Name]

those arent my standards. why dont you take your own advice that you constantly spit at others and dont tell others what they think.

my issue is with players that were caught using PED's and were suspended for them. i have not named a single person that was on the 2003 supposed list leaked by a fly by night website. so dont tell my what my "standards" are. hows that for consistent.

 

You're the one who's saying you don't want "known" PED users on the team. Ortiz is a known PED user, It could've been leaked by a unicorn, but it's undeniable that he failed a test.

 

Let me put it another way: Only a sith deals in absolutes. Extremist views are never a good thing.

[cp176]

It's not that he's simply a cheater, he's our cheater. Each team gets to have one.

 

Red Sox: Ortiz

Bruins: Marchand

Patriots: Brady

Celtics: Red

 

hey seriously, Red was the best of them all plus he did it without the drugs

[mvp 78]

You're the one who's saying you don't want "known" PED users on the team. Ortiz is a known PED user, It could've been leaked by a unicorn, but it's undeniable that he failed a test.

 

Let me put it another way: Only a sith deals in absolutes. Extremist views are never a good thing.

 

That's just begging for a temp ban from YOTN.

[Nick]

can we get off the topic of PED? I think we've all heard from both sides.....lets move on guys and gals

[Slasher9]

You're the one who's saying you don't want "known" PED users on the team. Ortiz is a known PED user, It could've been leaked by a unicorn, but it's undeniable that he failed a test.

 

Let me put it another way: Only a sith deals in absolutes. Extremist views are never a good thing.

 

this is apparently where we differ. tell me when and what he used a banned PED substance that was against the rules. anyone that was caught after 2004 was cheating the game and cheating the other players. any team that signed or signs a player that was suspended for PED's is perpetuating the problem. i dont want the team i root for to perpetuate the PED usage and the cheating. i dont care that jose canseco shot mcwire in the azz with a boatload of steroids in 1989. i do care that Jhonny Peralta was suspended for using and the St Louis Cardinals signed him to a $53MM contract.

[Nick]

Moon, you are much better at this......instead of looking from Sox perspective.....what teams would be interested in making trades with the Sox knowing Betts, Bradley, Xander and Moncada are all untouchable?

 

From my perspective Devers is blocked, Espinoza is still years away (and as I've said often our #1 pick would replace him), Benintendi is a nice player but not a game changer. You're the GM of our trading partner and you know that Sox is looking for a team controlled young SP....what trade would you be happy with?..

 

what would you give up for Devers, Espinoza, Benintendi and Swihart?

[S5Dewey]

this is apparently where we differ. tell me when and what he used a banned PED substance that was against the rules. anyone that was caught after 2004 was cheating the game and cheating the other players. any team that signed or signs a player that was suspended for PED's is perpetuating the problem. i dont want the team i root for to perpetuate the PED usage and the cheating. i dont care that jose canseco shot mcwire in the azz with a boatload of steroids in 1989. i do care that Jhonny Peralta was suspended for using and the St Louis Cardinals signed him to a $53MM contract.

 

Well put, Slash. This is where I am too, most especially the part I edited to bold print.

 

A short time ago Babe suggested that Nomar had used PED's during his career and challenged us to be "more informed" before we opined that Nomar was "clean". So I did. And I found... suggestions/suspicions but no proof, no failed tests. Bear with me... I'm going someplace with this....

 

What I DID find was Nomar saying that some players asked to be listed as testing positive even though they weren't using PED's in order to bring the percentage of positive tests to the threshold where MLB would investigate usage. I'd never heard that before. Does that sound familiar to anyone else?

[Emp9]

Well put, Slash. This is where I am too, most especially the part I edited to bold print.

 

A short time ago Babe suggested that Nomar had used PED's during his career and challenged us to be "more informed" before we opined that Nomar was "clean". So I did. And I found... suggestions/suspicions but no proof, no failed tests. Bear with me... I'm going someplace with this....

 

What I DID find was Nomar saying that some players asked to be listed as testing positive even though they weren't using PED's in order to bring the percentage of positive tests to the threshold where MLB would investigate usage. I'd never heard that before. Does that sound familiar to anyone else?

 

I don't remember Nomar saying that, but yes I do indeed remember hearing that.

[a700hitter]

Nomar and PEDs is pure smear without any evidence. It is garbage.

[Emp9]

Ortiz is the only player i can recall who was actually honest about PED use. Before there was even a list (2003-2004), he went on record & said he was sure he himself most likely drank some shady sport drinks or whatnot while in the DR and didn't think twice about it. That kind of stuff was rampant. Every player who failed after the anonymous list was out, got a letter that they failed, and why. Ortiz never got such a letter. He requested MLB provide such a letter and they never could. Still waiting on this letter. If there was such a letter, all MLB had to do was simply release it. Seems like all heresay to me.

[moonslav59]

Moon, you are much better at this......instead of looking from Sox perspective.....what teams would be interested in making trades with the Sox knowing Betts, Bradley, Xander and Moncada are all untouchable?

 

From my perspective Devers is blocked, Espinoza is still years away (and as I've said often our #1 pick would replace him), Benintendi is a nice player but not a game changer. You're the GM of our trading partner and you know that Sox is looking for a team controlled young SP....what trade would you be happy with?..

 

what would you give up for Devers, Espinoza, Benintendi and Swihart?

 

I'd give up a great young pitcher for those 4. I probably do it for 3 of these guys, however only if I was a non-contender.

.

The problem is twofold and may be insurmountable:

 

1) There are only a handful of teams that pretty much know they are not going to be winning a championship in the next 3-5 years and would be willing to trade any immediate hope they have at a near championship to greatly improve their odds at winning 3-5 or more likely 4-7 years from now. (Teams looking to win in the next 1-3 years will not look to trade an ace for better extended hopes.)

 

2) Of these handful of teams (maybe PHI, ATL, SDP, MN, OAK & CIN), not many have an ace-caliber young pitcher under team control for 4+ years (counting 2016) at a reasonable cost?

 

You want specifics? If I was Billy Beane, I'd trade Gray for Swihart, Benintendi and Swihart. I don't think Devers would be needed, but maybe Owens or Johnson might be added. I'm not sure what Phily would want for Nola or Eickoff, but I'm not sure if either of them project as an ace. There's a lot of talk abour Teheran of the Braves, and if I was their GM, I'd trade him for 3 of those guys, but if I was the Sox, I'm not sure I would. I'd give Swihart, Devers and 2-3 mid-level guys but not 3 of our top 5 prospects. The other teams don't have anyone I think meets our needs.

 

I seriously doubt we can lure a contending team to deal an ace without giving something MLB ready and of near top quality.

 

As much as I hate to say it, I think what I want might be impossible to get.

[oldtimer]

I'd give up a great young pitcher for those 4. I probably do it for 3 of these guys, however only if I was a non-contender.

.

The problem is twofold and may be insurmountable:

 

1) There are only a handful of teams that pretty much know they are not going to be winning a championship in the next 3-5 years and would be willing to trade any immediate hope they have at a near championship to greatly improve their odds at winning 3-5 or more likely 4-7 years from now. (Teams looking to win in the next 1-3 years will not look to trade an ace for better extended hopes.)

 

2) Of these handful of teams (maybe PHI, ATL, SDP, MN, OAK & CIN), not many have an ace-caliber young pitcher under team control for 4+ years (counting 2016) at a reasonable cost?

 

You want specifics? If I was Billy Beane, I'd trade Gray for Swihart, Benintendi and Swihart. I don't think Devers would be needed, but maybe Owens or Johnson might be added. I'm not sure what Phily would want for Nola or Eickoff, but I'm not sure if either of them project as an ace. There's a lot of talk abour Teheran of the Braves, and if I was their GM, I'd trade him for 3 of those guys, but if I was the Sox, I'm not sure I would. I'd give Swihart, Devers and 2-3 mid-level guys but not 3 of our top 5 prospects. The other teams don't have anyone I think meets our needs.

 

I seriously doubt we can lure a contending team to deal an ace without giving something MLB ready and of near top quality.

 

As much as I hate to say it, I think what I want might be impossible to get.

 

The Sox are in need of backup, righty/lefty subs and pinch hitters now. Both Holt and Swihart have shown the ability to play at the major league level and might have had an impact in a game like last night with the bases loaded and 0 outs. I wouldn't let Moncada or Benintendi go either as they are likely to be brought up in August. I would give up Devers, Owens or Johnson (not both), and maybe 2 or 3 of our mid level prospects. If that isn't enough then we will need to go to the free agent list.

[User Name]

this is apparently where we differ. tell me when and what he used a banned PED substance that was against the rules. anyone that was caught after 2004 was cheating the game and cheating the other players. any team that signed or signs a player that was suspended for PED's is perpetuating the problem. i dont want the team i root for to perpetuate the PED usage and the cheating. i dont care that jose canseco shot mcwire in the azz with a boatload of steroids in 1989. i do care that Jhonny Peralta was suspended for using and the St Louis Cardinals signed him to a $53MM contract.

 

Then again, let's say the Sox are interested in Mondesi Jr. He failed a test because of an OTC medicine, and even got a reduced suspension because it was, by all accounts, an honest mistake. Should they shy away because he's a "known user"?

[User Name]

Ortiz is the only player i can recall who was actually honest about PED use. Before there was even a list (2003-2004), he went on record & said he was sure he himself most likely drank some shady sport drinks or whatnot while in the DR and didn't think twice about it. That kind of stuff was rampant. Every player who failed after the anonymous list was out, got a letter that they failed, and why. Ortiz never got such a letter. He requested MLB provide such a letter and they never could. Still waiting on this letter. If there was such a letter, all MLB had to do was simply release it. Seems like all heresay to me.

 

If it was a Yankees player, you wouldn't consider it hearsay, I bet. Let's at least resemble objectivity. He failed a test. It was probably for some stupid BS like Bastardo, Davis and Mondesi Jr., but he failed a test.