Pablo Sandoval

[Kimmi]

And the reason is that Pablo is out of condition, but you keep lumping any reference that suggests Pablo is not in peak physical condition, in with all the "lolfat" posts so that you can conveniently ignore it.

 

I am not ignoring anything. I have acknowledged that Pablo's weight is likely hindering his range.

 

But you bring up a good point. All of the fat jokes and fat Pablo character assassination posts do not help your arguments.

[Kimmi]

Shaw's good enough at third to make the basic defensive plays, he doesn't seem to exactly have top flight reactions, probably owing to the lack of reps he's gotten at the position over the last few years (hey, anyone gets rusty without reps). I'm curious to see if we get lucky here -- if Shaw can get comfortable at third and keep hitting at something approaching the level he demonstrated last year, we could have a stealth All-Star on our hands. Not very probable, but all the pieces are there, andI think the talent is there too, it's down to Shaw figuring out on the fly how to put them all together. That would make Pablo showing up 40 lbs overweight one of the best things that could have happened to the team this Spring.

 

If Shaw plays like an All-Star, I will be saying "Pablo who"? At this juncture, however, it's still not the right call.

 

And I will ask again, where are you getting your information that Pablo is 40 pounds overweight?

[mvp 78]

That was last year. How does that harm giving him a chance this year?

 

Because his chance was coming to ST and being ready for this season. He squandered that opportunity.

[mvp 78]

I am not ignoring anything. I have acknowledged that Pablo's weight is likely hindering his range.

 

But you bring up a good point. All of the fat jokes and fat Pablo character assassination posts do not help your arguments.

 

You just can't ignore the white noise of the jokes. Just because some makes jokes, doesn't mean they have a bad argument.

[Bellhorn04]

LOL Fair point.

 

But no one has answered with a simple yes or no. Because what I say is the truth.

 

If you can honestly and sincerely answer no to that question, I will accept your word on it.

 

It's not the truth, Kimmi, it's your opinion. It's an informed and sincere opinion and I respect it. But we will have to see some results before we can properly judge whether they made the correct decision or not.

[mvp 78]

If Shaw plays like an All-Star, I will be saying "Pablo who"? At this juncture, however, it's still not the right call.

 

And I will ask again, where are you getting your information that Pablo is 40 pounds overweight?

 

I'm seeing "official weight 295 lbs" on every forum, but aside from wikipedia, I don't see that weight listed "officially" anywhere.

[Dojji]

I am not ignoring anything. I have acknowledged that Pablo's weight is likely hindering his range.

 

But you bring up a good point. All of the fat jokes and fat Pablo character assassination posts do not help your arguments.

 

Sorry, Kimmi, no. The point has been made to you in straight sincerity with no jokes at all and you lump those clearly, seriously communicated posts in with lolfat. This is not our bad communication, this is your bad/dishonest parsing and response.

[cp176]

Shaw's good enough at third to make the basic defensive plays, he doesn't seem to exactly have top flight reactions, probably owing to the lack of reps he's gotten at the position over the last few years (hey, anyone gets rusty without reps). I'm curious to see if we get lucky here -- if Shaw can get comfortable at third and keep hitting at something approaching the level he demonstrated last year, we could have a stealth All-Star on our hands. Not very probable, but all the pieces are there, andI think the talent is there too, it's down to Shaw figuring out on the fly how to put them all together. That would make Pablo showing up 40 lbs overweight one of the best things that could have happened to the team this Spring.

 

Young guy who has shown some interesting potential. It might work out for him. He has earned the opportunity. It beats playing foolish little games like the one played with Pablo. One of the last things to worry about when camp starts, is whether or not your professionals are in reasonably decent shape.

[Kimmi]

Because his chance was coming to ST and being ready for this season. He squandered that opportunity.

 

I can understand if that's the way you feel. It still doesn't answer the question about what harm it would do to give him 1-2 months.

 

Again, what I'm hearing from that statement is that he doesn't play because he's fat and lazy.

[Dojji]

I can understand if that's the way you feel. It still doesn't answer the question about what harm it would do to give him 1-2 months.

 

the harm is in playing a 3B who can't play up to standard due to his weight, risking injury and nearly guaranteeing a lower chance to win baseball games, sinking the team in the standings in a season that's up for grabs, in the hope that his condition will improve over the year when it didn't last year, and when there's a 3B who's earned the time and is able to play from day 1, already on the roster.

 

As I said in another thread, kimmi, it is incredibly unusual for a veteran to lose his starting gig in Spring Training, it never ever ever ever happens, especially when it isn't a top youngster making the push, but a guy who's gonna be on the bench anyway. So in that sense you're correct, they could easily have let Pablo screw up for a couple weeks then given Shaw the job.

 

So when they decide to make the call now, bench Pablo for Shaw before game 1 when that never happens to veteran players, you really need to think about just how comprehensively Pablo had to **** up just to be in this position.

 

Personally I think there's something to be said for lighting a fire under Pablo's ass now by taking the unprecedented (and therefore highly embarrassing) step of benching him on day one, in the hope that he takes the message, cleans up his act and slims down into playing shape. And of course if he doesn't or can't, then there's nothing to salvage here and playing him would just be enabling him to begin with.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Dojji

[mvp 78]

I can understand if that's the way you feel. It still doesn't answer the question about what harm it would do to give him 1-2 months.

 

Again, what I'm hearing from that statement is that he doesn't play because he's fat and lazy.

 

The harm is that if he has been outplayed by Shaw since last summer, it makes little sense to play Panda unless you aren't trying to win. Is baseball about the feelings of overpaid players or about fielding a team that can win? I want wins. You seem to want to coddle veterans at the expense of results on the field.

[mvp 78]

I can understand if that's the way you feel. It still doesn't answer the question about what harm it would do to give him 1-2 months.

 

Again, what I'm hearing from that statement is that he doesn't play because he's fat and lazy.

 

And I haven't ever said he was lazy, that's your bias against others' povs.

[User Name]

Castillo has never shown that he can hit though. At least Pablo can hit and he has a proven track record, aside from last year.

 

Pablo cannot field his position. Unless you're trying to tell me that offense is so far in the importance scale over defense that whatever positive value in offensive production Pablo *may* bring outweighs his complete inability to play a competent third base, then I don't buy it.

[Kimmi]

You just can't ignore the white noise of the jokes. Just because some makes jokes, doesn't mean they have a bad argument.

 

I'm not ignoring any information that is posted here.

 

The jokes and the attacks detract from the validity of an argument. Honestly, it gives the impression of an emotionally based argument over any rational thinking.

[Dojji]

Except people have been making that argument without any humor at all, in deadly seriousness, and you're treating it exactly the same as the frat boy humor and ignoring them all alike. That's on you Kimmi. That's your decision.

 

you can't simultaneously blast people for the fat jokes, and also refuse or fail to engage in those not using the fat jokes as if they were, that just gives off the impression that you are trying to utterly fail to have a discussion as loudly as possible, drown the whole mess in white noise of your own and pretend that that means it somehow doesn't exist.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Dojji

[Kimmi]

It's not the truth, Kimmi, it's your opinion. It's an informed and sincere opinion and I respect it. But we will have to see some results before we can properly judge whether they made the correct decision or not.

 

Fair enough that it's my opinion.

 

And yet, no one will give me a straight answer to the question. Which leads me to believe that everyone agrees with my opinion.

[Dojji]

Fair enough that it's my opinion.

 

And yet, no one will give me a straight answer to the question. Which leads me to believe that everyone agrees with my opinion.

 

you won't get a straight answer until you ask a straight question.

[Kimmi]

I'm seeing "official weight 295 lbs" on every forum, but aside from wikipedia, I don't see that weight listed "officially" anywhere.

 

Thank you. The link from Sox Prospects to Pablo's player page has him officially listed at 180 lbs.

 

Seriously, a buddy of mine on another site posts literally every article and tweet regarding the Sox imaginable. He has posted nothing about an amount that Pablo weighs. If he hasn't found the information, it probably doesn't exist. Which means that there is a lot of speculation going on about how much weight Pablo has gained.

[Dojji]

you must have clicked the wrong link Kimmi, the Soxprospect link takes me to Baseball Reference where Pablo is listed at the old weigh in of 255 pounds, probably taken years ago and 20-30 poinds less than his actual weight like most players' "official" weigh in.

 

Even at 255 poinds, for a guy who's 5'11" that's a pretty freaking big dude, easily at least 40lbs overweight, probably more like 60, and as he ages and slows down his weight is going to be more and more of a hindrance for him. Add to that the rumors that he may be as much as 40 pounds heavier than his official weight (which isn't that far off everyone else's actual relationship with their official weight) and you've got problems on the way. One simply cannot play an athlete's position when potentially up to 100 pounds overweight

Edited April 3, 2016 by Dojji

[Kimmi]

Sorry, Kimmi, no. The point has been made to you in straight sincerity with no jokes at all and you lump those clearly, seriously communicated posts in with lolfat. This is not our bad communication, this is your bad/dishonest parsing and response.

 

Let me give you a more serious comparison. If all of these Pablo fat jokes and slurs were instead racial jokes and slurs, or sexist jokes and slurs, would it be any different?

 

If I were mostly very competent at my job, then had a bad month and got demoted, and then men made jokes about how I was a dumb bimbo who slept my way into getting my job, and that women only have one good purpose, or that women belonged in the home. Then when someone called them on those comments, they said but oh, "this has nothing to do with her being a bimbo or a woman, she didn't attend the training that was offered last month, so she deserved to get demoted". In the meantime, the bimbo/sexist jokes continue to be made at every chance they get.

 

Would you not think that these people had more of an issue with their perception of me as a bimbo/woman, rather than with the fact that I didn't attend training?

 

What if they were racial jokes and slurs? Would that be okay?

 

At the very least, it takes away from the sincerity of the argument.

[Kimmi]

Sorry, Kimmi, no. The point has been made to you in straight sincerity with no jokes at all and you lump those clearly, seriously communicated posts in with lolfat. This is not our bad communication, this is your bad/dishonest parsing and response.

 

Once the fat jokes and character assassinations are made, and continue to be made, it detracts from the sincerity of the argument. That's all I'm saying.

[Kimmi]

The harm is that if he has been outplayed by Shaw since last summer, it makes little sense to play Panda unless you aren't trying to win. Is baseball about the feelings of overpaid players or about fielding a team that can win? I want wins. You seem to want to coddle veterans at the expense of results on the field.

 

I am not trying to coddle anyone. In case you haven't noticed, I will defend almost any Sox player until I'm blue in the face, veteran or rookie. Personally, I prefer the home grown players over the veterans. I never thought Pablo's contract was a good one to begin with. The bottom line is, I don't think he is being given a fair chance.

 

Anyway, Shaw is the man now, and I hope he kicks butt and leads the team to a WS.

[Kimmi]

And I haven't ever said he was lazy, that's your bias against others' povs.

 

My apologies.

[Kimmi]

Pablo cannot field his position. Unless you're trying to tell me that offense is so far in the importance scale over defense that whatever positive value in offensive production Pablo *may* bring outweighs his complete inability to play a competent third base, then I don't buy it.

 

And Castillo can't hit. Is his defense going to outweigh his complete inability to hit?

[Kimmi]

you won't get a straight answer until you ask a straight question.

 

The question can't get any straighter.

[Kimmi]

you must have clicked the wrong link Kimmi, the Soxprospect link takes me to Baseball Reference where Pablo is listed at the old weigh in of 255 pounds, probably taken years ago and 20-30 poinds less than his actual weight like most players' "official" weigh in.

 

Even at 255 poinds, for a guy who's 5'11" that's a pretty freaking big dude, easily at least 40lbs overweight, probably more like 60, and as he ages and slows down his weight is going to be more and more of a hindrance for him. Add to that the rumors that he may be as much as 40 pounds heavier than his official weight (which isn't that far off everyone else's actual relationship with their official weight) and you've got problems on the way. One simply cannot play an athlete's position when potentially up to 100 pounds overweight

 

Click on Pablo's name from here:

 

http://www.soxprospects.com/40man.htm

 

At any rate, I agree that that as Pablo ages, his weight will become more and more a factor in his ability to play. So, what am I ignoring?

[Dojji]

Once the fat jokes and character assassinations are made, and continue to be made, it detracts from the sincerity of the argument. That's all I'm saying.

 

And those that never made that argument, which you're jumping in with everyone else because for some reason it's all about how you react emotionally to the argument rather than what is actually said?

[Bellhorn04]

The question can't get any straighter.

 

If Pablo and Castillo played their positions at good levels, would the team be better off with them as starters and Shaw and Holt as bench players than they would be the other way around? Let's assume that Pablo and Castillo would play as well as Shaw and Holt would play, which is certainly within the realm of possibility.

 

This is your question, right? Isn't it based on a questionable assumption?

[Kimmi]

If Pablo and Castillo played their positions at good levels, would the team be better off with them as starters and Shaw and Holt as bench players than they would be the other way around? Let's assume that Pablo and Castillo would play as well as Shaw and Holt would play, which is certainly within the realm of possibility.

 

This is your question, right? Isn't it based on a questionable assumption?

 

Of course. It's still a very straightforward question.

[Dojji]

No it isn't. A question that's based on an assumption is as unstraightforward as it gets. The question is one that clearly comes with a bias. A bias is another word for a slant or an angle, not words one normally associates with the word "straightforward."

 

that's what the media would call a "gotcha question" because to answer it at all you have to play into its fundamental assumptions and then the media can call you on the fact that you've done so and find all kinds of ways to put words into your mouth. It's not quite as bad as "when did you stop beating your wife?" but it's in the same category.

 

you haven't got an answer to that question that satisfies you because no one's played into a question that they know is tilted, either deliberately or accidentally. And I'm sorry Kimmy, I have too much respect for your intelligence to assume it was done accidentally..