Craig Kimbrel to Boston

[SoxFanForsyth]

Paid a premium on winning now and striking early to make sure we didn't miss out on getting an elite reliever. Guy got traded the night before OD and had a rough go of it early last season when he was getting used to his new team. You could really see him turn the corner at the end of May. From 5/25 to the end of the season, he posted a 1.44 ERA, 13.19 K/9, and kept getting better as the season progressed.

 

Giving up Margot and Guerra sucked, for sure. But Margot (I've always thought) was overrated and Guerra is a Low-A prospect that you can dream on but carries a ton of risk. I get why DD had to pay both.

 

If this is the deal that is painful, and the Sox land Price via FA and keep all their kids (JBJ, Betts, Swihart, Bogaerts, Espinoza, Devers, Moncada, Benintendi, Owens, Johnson), this team is in a hell of a spot to do some major, major damage this year and in years to come.

 

Simply put, go get Price and you're a contender with a bunch of studs in the farm still, and an absolute lights out closer

[Elktonnick]

It is too bad for him, that he built such a terrific farm system, and he will not be here to see the fruits of his labor.

 

A farm system's sole purpose is to provide players for the big club. Few prospects themselves make it to the big club. Many who do never turn out to be a Mookie Betts or a Xander Bogaerts but raather are more likely to be a Will Middlebrooks, Lars Anderson, Manny Delcarmen or a Michael Bowdoiin. So giving up prospects no matter how promising for an established All Star is a very good strategy.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I am not opposed to Dombrowski trading away some prospects. It has to be done and I understand that. I am not opposed to any of the particular prospects that were traded being traded. But that doesn't mean you give them away for less than they are worth.

 

Market bears worth. DD and Preller have been talking since the end of the season, there were negotiations going on and I'm sure that this was the most comfortable price that DD could get to.

 

That said, it is a big price, but you pay a premium on making early moves and keeping other teams from coming in and stealing a player away while you wait for the price to drop.

 

I look at it this way: maybe the Sox could have waited and tried to not include Guerra. So they wait, and they get outbid. Now they're left w the farm but a pen that is leaky. Give me the chance to win a WS for the next 3 years and you can have Guerra.

[Dojji]

I am not opposed to Dombrowski trading away some prospects. It has to be done and I understand that. I am not opposed to any of the particular prospects that were traded being traded. But that doesn't mean you give them away for less than they are worth.

 

And what is a top 5 relief arm in all of baseball worth?

 

Ask the Royals what Wade Davis is worth!

 

Ask the Mets what they would have been willing to pay for a closer who made his saves!

 

Do not underestimate what a top shelf bullpen can do for a team. The Royals just won the World Series with neither an offense nor a rotation that was in any way elite, simply because the bullpen didn't give up runs and allowed the team to keep fighting back in late innings.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

Paid a premium on winning now and striking early to make sure we didn't miss out on getting an elite reliever. Guy got traded the night before OD and had a rough go of it early last season when he was getting used to his new team. You could really see him turn the corner at the end of May. From 5/25 to the end of the season, he posted a 1.44 ERA, 13.19 K/9, and kept getting better as the season progressed.

 

Giving up Margot and Guerra sucked, for sure. But Margot (I've always thought) was overrated and Guerra is a Low-A prospect that you can dream on but carries a ton of risk. I get why DD had to pay both.

 

If this is the deal that is painful, and the Sox land Price via FA and keep all their kids (JBJ, Betts, Swihart, Bogaerts, Espinoza, Devers, Moncada, Benintendi, Owens, Johnson), this team is in a hell of a spot to do some major, major damage this year and in years to come.

 

Simply put, go get Price and you're a contender with a bunch of studs in the farm still, and an absolute lights out closer

 

This post makes me feel good.

[a700hitter]

So you're okay with trading a big pile of prospects for a non-ace ?

We still have a pile of prospects and Margot is blocked in our OF by 3 very young talented OFers and Guerra is blocked at SS by a young star. There was no place for them in our system. Rather than let them die on the vine in our system, he got a young bullpen ace for 3 years. And status quo means last place with our roster and no, I am not okay with that. We were not just going to buy our way out of last place. Using prospects as trading chips is a smart move if there is no place in your organization for them. A cost controlled ace is not going to be obtained for this level of prospects. You can forget that happening.

[a700hitter]

I love the fact that the Sox got Kimbrel. He is one of the best relief pitchers in the game, and he will no doubt make our team better.

 

That said, I hate the deal. It is definitely an overpay, and IMO, a pretty steep one. Very good relief pitchers, including closers, can be found for much cheaper.

 

Trading four prospects for a cost-controlled Kimbrel would have been an overpay. Signing Kimbrel in free agency for 2 yrs/$24 mil or 3 yrs/$37 mil would have been an overpay. Giving up four prospects and having to pay that salary is a double whammy.

 

Dombrowski filled a need, and a pretty big one at that, for which I am happy. However, I think he could have made better use of our resources.

 

He was right. This was painful.

So, you love it and you hate it?

[Dojji]

Can one really not love the result and hate what it took to achieve the result?

 

I mean the end of WWII was a pretty objectively good thing, whether you lost the war or won it the fact that it was over did increase your standard of living and life expectancy, especially if you were a military age male, but I think we would have all appreciated it, especially the Japanese, if a way had been found to achieve that result without becoming the only nation ever in the history of the world to actually deploy nuclear weapons.

[cp176]

Paid a premium on winning now and striking early to make sure we didn't miss out on getting an elite reliever. Guy got traded the night before OD and had a rough go of it early last season when he was getting used to his new team. You could really see him turn the corner at the end of May. From 5/25 to the end of the season, he posted a 1.44 ERA, 13.19 K/9, and kept getting better as the season progressed.

 

Giving up Margot and Guerra sucked, for sure. But Margot (I've always thought) was overrated and Guerra is a Low-A prospect that you can dream on but carries a ton of risk. I get why DD had to pay both.

 

If this is the deal that is painful, and the Sox land Price via FA and keep all their kids (JBJ, Betts, Swihart, Bogaerts, Espinoza, Devers, Moncada, Benintendi, Owens, Johnson), this team is in a hell of a spot to do some major, major damage this year and in years to come.

 

Simply put, go get Price and you're a contender with a bunch of studs in the farm still, and an absolute lights out closer

 

I agree with this post very much. I would even add a few other young names to your list. People can and will shout and holler about this being an overpay or maybe we should have gone in a different direction via the trade. Doesn't matter. We just got better. I'm happy. The only reason to keep Margot and Guerra for sure was to use them in a trade. Once again as most of us realize, they were not going to be playing in Boston. The Red Sox whole concept of building up the farm system has been great. We have a general manager who obviously intends to move some of those players who have some talent but are clearly blocked. We might not always appreciate the direct moves that he makes but personally I like to see some action taken. Hopefully there is more to come via either free agency or the trade. Trading these 4 does not look like any damage to our future was done.

[mvp 78]

It is too bad for him, that he built such a terrific farm system, and he will not be here to see the fruits of his labor.

 

Also built some s***** MLB clubs if I remember. Actual MLB performance is more important than prospect projections.

 

Time will tell if DD let the right guys go. For now, the MLB bullpen is better than we've had in a few years.

 

Lightened load on Koji. Tax pushed to less pressurized situations. Top flight closer. That's a lights out 7-8-9.

[Spudboy]

I love the fact that the Sox got Kimbrel. He is one of the best relief pitchers in the game, and he will no doubt make our team better.

 

That said, I hate the deal. It is definitely an overpay, and IMO, a pretty steep one. Very good relief pitchers, including closers, can be found for much cheaper.

 

Trading four prospects for a cost-controlled Kimbrel would have been an overpay. Signing Kimbrel in free agency for 2 yrs/$24 mil or 3 yrs/$37 mil would have been an overpay. Giving up four prospects and having to pay that salary is a double whammy.

 

Dombrowski filled a need, and a pretty big one at that, for which I am happy. However, I think he could have made better use of our resources.

 

He was right. This was painful.

 

On the other hand, what were the odds that one , let alone all four prospects, would end up being productive players for the Sox? This team needs quality bp arms. If Kimbrel is healthy than this was a justifiable deal.

[Spudboy]

And what is a top 5 relief arm in all of baseball worth?

 

Ask the Royals what Wade Davis is worth!

 

Ask the Mets what they would have been willing to pay for a closer who made his saves!

 

Do not underestimate what a top shelf bullpen can do for a team. The Royals just won the World Series with neither an offense nor a rotation that was in any way elite, simply because the bullpen didn't give up runs and allowed the team to keep fighting back in late innings.

 

Amen Bro.

[jacksonianmarch]

I still don't trust Tazawa, but moving him into the 7th inning means he should get some more rest when a starter gets through 7.

[Meh]

Do not underestimate what a top shelf bullpen can do for a team. The Royals just won the World Series with neither an offense nor a rotation that was in any way elite, simply because the bullpen didn't give up runs and allowed the team to keep fighting back in late innings.

 

Royals did it with a really good, deep line up. Cain, Hosmer, Zobrist, Escobar, Gordon, Perez, and Moustakas are all very good players. Morales and Dyson/Rios aren't bad either. Their lineup was balanced and it was deep. They do have some work to do this year though, like trying to extend their players but I really liked their line up last year.

[Meh]

I still don't trust Tazawa, but moving him into the 7th inning means he should get some more rest when a starter gets through 7.

 

He's not bad, if they are able to add O'Day and mix and match him and Tazawa in the 7th and convery one of Owens or Johnson as a lefty out of the bullpen, they'll be fine. They'd have a really solid bullpen top 10 in baseball, maybe even some consideration for a top 5 spot.

[sk7326]

two top 20 prospects for 160 innings or so of a guy coming off his worst season ... awesome

 

Kimbrel will be fine - but this is a shockingly poor use of assets, and loses some of the real currency they had to get a starter - unless ... (hides)

Edited November 14, 2015 by sk7326

[sk7326]

This is a big dominant bullpen arm added. It is a good start to overhauling the bullpen. I see the pen as definitely including Koji, Tazawa and Kimbrel, possibly with Kelly. Do people think Workman might be a possibility?

 

Given that 2 seasons ago we got two dominant bullpen arms for a sack of magic beans - this is a wild overpay. Two top 30 prospects and a couple of other guys with big prospects for 160 innings which you could have found elsewhere.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I still don't trust Tazawa, but moving him into the 7th inning means he should get some more rest when a starter gets through 7.

 

Yeah this is kind of silly. Tazawa is a very good reliever that wore down in the second half because of overuse in the first half because we had starters going 3 innings every other night. His K rate and BB rate were still very good, as was his FIP.

 

He's going to be a lights out 7th inning guy, for sure. Not sure how you can not trust him.

[sk7326]

I enjoy that Dombrowski's first trade was to move four prospects (two top 100 ones) for a closer who was WAR neutral over the closer they had last year (and did it in 20 less innings). It moves the previous closer into the sort of role he probably is not built for anymore.

[Bellhorn04]

I enjoy that Dombrowski's first trade was to move four prospects (two top 100 ones) for a closer who was WAR neutral over the closer they had last year (and did it in 20 less innings). It moves the previous closer into the sort of role he probably is not built for anymore.

 

Do you think Koji is built for closer anymore?

[Behindenemylines]

This seems like an overpay. Giving up a top 25 prospect and a top 100 prospect for an expensive reliever? Why not just pay the 30-40 million on Darren O'Day and save the prospects?

 

I miss Ben already.

 

Both those prospects are behind players that are 22 and 23 years old. Margot would be stuck behind Betts, and Guerra stuck behind Xander. At some point you have to use your prospects to fill current team needs. Sox needed to upgrade bullpen. Kimbrel is easily a top three closer in baseball. The Royals have gone to two straight WS based on their dominant 7-8-9 inning bullpen guys. This puts us closer to that. You have give up something to get something. Margot and Guerra are 2 to 3 years away from being in the show. If anyone thinks that teams are going to give us top players to fill the Sox needs without getting something back you are dreaming. Finally, you would only have Chapman for a year, while Kimbrel the Sox could have control of for the next three seasons.

[Palodios]

Both those prospects are behind players that are 22 and 23 years old. Margot would be stuck behind Betts, and Guerra stuck behind Xander.

 

Its not about the prospects, its the value given up. Add Swihart to that mix, and maybe they could have found an ace with that haul. Maybe there was a three team trade out there.

 

I get that this team needed relief help, but there were more reasonable options out there. Papelbon, O'day, Clippard... none of those guys would have cost remotely this much.

[User Name]

DD clearly trying to detach the "can't build a competent BP" button from his shirt. See the logic, hate the deal.

[User Name]

Its not about the prospects, its the value given up. Add Swihart to that mix, and maybe they could have found an ace with that haul. Maybe there was a three team trade out there.

 

I get that this team needed relief help, but there were more reasonable options out there. Papelbon, O'day, Clippard... none of those guys would have cost remotely this much.

 

Papelbon? Are you serious. Washington can't give the guy away. O'day would be a good get, and Clippard looked very suspect the second half of the season.

[a700hitter]

Can one really not love the result and hate what it took to achieve the result?

 

I mean the end of WWII was a pretty objectively good thing, whether you lost the war or won it the fact that it was over did increase your standard of living and life expectancy, especially if you were a military age male, but I think we would have all appreciated it, especially the Japanese, if a way had been found to achieve that result without becoming the only nation ever in the history of the world to actually deploy nuclear weapons.

WWII is a very good analogy to the acquisition of Craig Kimbrel. A reality check might be in order.

[User Name]

Hate it when I'm obligated to agree with a700.

[a700hitter]

I agree with this post very much. I would even add a few other young names to your list. People can and will shout and holler about this being an overpay or maybe we should have gone in a different direction via the trade. Doesn't matter. We just got better. I'm happy. The only reason to keep Margot and Guerra for sure was to use them in a trade. Once again as most of us realize, they were not going to be playing in Boston. The Red Sox whole concept of building up the farm system has been great. We have a general manager who obviously intends to move some of those players who have some talent but are clearly blocked. We might not always appreciate the direct moves that he makes but personally I like to see some action taken. Hopefully there is more to come via either free agency or the trade. Trading these 4 does not look like any damage to our future was done.

People need to understand that our current roster produced a last place finish. Changes need to be made to get out of last place. Every team in our division that fnished ahead of us will be making moves to improve. It's not like DD is in the process of breaking up the 1978 Red Sox juggernaut --truly a sad period. He is trying not to finish last, and each of those guys was blocked in the Red Sox organization by very young players. We got an All Star bullpen pitcher helping to address the team's biggest need. And people are wringing their hands. LOL! I am with you CP, we just got better, and that makes me happy.

[Dojji]

Its not about the prospects, its the value given up.

 

And what value was actually given up? None of these guys are in any way locks to make the big show.

[a700hitter]

Given that 2 seasons ago we got two dominant bullpen arms for a sack of magic beans - this is a wild overpay. Two top 30 prospects and a couple of other guys with big prospects for 160 innings which you could have found elsewhere.

Throw rocks at DD if you want. I don't give a hoot for the suits, but status quo would mean another last place finish, and we might ooh and ahh over some prospects, but unless there were changes, the only thing that would be below us in the standings on the monster score board would have been the left field warning track. These guys had no future with this club. The only thing worse than our starters might have been our bullpen. This was a big move to help address the team's biggest weakness. If you want to cry about it, that is your right. I like that we just improved.

 

So, you don't like giving up prospects to get talent. Are you also going to complain if we spend $200 million on David Price? If we want to get better, it will cost prospects or money. There is no getting around that.

Edited November 14, 2015 by a700hitter

[Dojji]

:rolleyes:WWII is a very good analogy to the acquisition of Craig Kimbrel. A reality check might be in order.

 

It's an example of a principle. The bigger the example the more obvious the point.

 

Is it really so hard to love a result but hate what had to be done to get there that we have to mock Kimmi for saying it out loud?