Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

[Bellhorn04]

For better or worse, Benny Boy is really putting himself on the line with the pitching staff he has assembled.

[GomesBeard]

I think Ranaudo has potential. He only has 7 games in the big leagues, but was 14-4 in Pawtucket last year with a 2.61 ERA. Needs to work on his control a bit, but he is someone I'd like to see get a shot as a starter if we need one.

[jd98]

“We’re pursuing some stuff but I think it’€™s more what you would classify as depth related,” Cherington said. “…We like where we’€™re at. We like the collection of pitchers we have. We think there’€™s untapped potential in the group and the collection we have now can give us a strong pitching staff this year.”

 

If true, the worst rotation on paper since I can remember entering into a new season.

 

Maybe he was talking about Pawtucket. PawSox rotation does look good.

[Spitball]

I look at the contract the Nationals just gave Max Scherzer and realize the competition for starting pitching is at a foolishly high level. I would have been very concerned if the Sox had paid that much for that long. The guy is going to be making $35 million in the sixth and seventh years of the contract when he is 35 and 36 years-old.

 

I don't think the Red Sox rotation is that far behind anyone in the AL East. With the possible exceptions of Cobb and a healthy Tanaka, there isn't a true ace in the division.

 

And an ace doesn't guarantee anything in the post season. Take out Baumgarden's ace statistics and this year’s post-season saw Kershaw, Lester, Verlander, Scherzer and Shields pitched 57 1/3 innings, allowing 69 hits and 42 earned runs for a 6.59 ERA.

 

Red Sox

1. Clay Buchholz

2. Rick Porcello

3. Wade Miley

4. Joe Kelly

5. Justin Masterson

 

Orioles

1. Chris Tillman

2. Wei-Yin Chen

3. Bud Norris

4. Miguel Gonzalez

5. Kevin Gausman

 

Rays

1. Alex Cobb

2. Matt Moore

3. Chris Archer

4. Jake Odorizzi

5. Drew Smyly

 

Yankees

1. Masahiro Tanaka

2. Michael Pineda

3. Nathan Eovaldi

4. Chris Capuano

5. CC Sabathia

 

Blue Jays

1. R.A. Dickey

2. Mark Buehrle

3. Drew Hutchison

4. Marcus Stroman

5. Aaron Sanchez

[cp176]

I look at the contract the Nationals just gave Max Scherzer and realize the competition for starting pitching is at a foolishly high level. I would have been very concerned if the Sox had paid that much for that long. The guy is going to be making $35 million in the sixth and seventh years of the contract when he is 35 and 36 years-old.

 

I don't think the Red Sox rotation is that far behind anyone in the AL East. With the possible exceptions of Cobb and a healthy Tanaka, there isn't a true ace in the division.

 

And an ace doesn't guarantee anything in the post season. Take out Baumgarden's ace statistics and this year’s post-season saw Kershaw, Lester, Verlander, Scherzer and Shields pitched 57 1/3 innings, allowing 69 hits and 42 earned runs for a 6.59 ERA.

 

Red Sox

1. Clay Buchholz

2. Rick Porcello

3. Wade Miley

4. Joe Kelly

5. Justin Masterson

 

Orioles

1. Chris Tillman

2. Wei-Yin Chen

3. Bud Norris

4. Miguel Gonzalez

5. Kevin Gausman

 

Rays

1. Alex Cobb

2. Matt Moore

3. Chris Archer

4. Jake Odorizzi

5. Drew Smyly

 

Yankees

1. Masahiro Tanaka

2. Michael Pineda

3. Nathan Eovaldi

4. Chris Capuano

5. CC Sabathia

 

Blue Jays

1. R.A. Dickey

2. Mark Buehrle

3. Drew Hutchison

4. Marcus Stroman

5. Aaron Sanchez

 

 

I enjoy reading your posts and I do like your philosophical outlook toward the over paying of players not just pitchers. I also like your optimism. You might be right. If the glass is half empty though, I am thinking that based on past history you only have two pitchers there that could go a full season without at least one stint on the DL. If there are no more moves made, we better hope that some of those young good arms playing in Rhode Island are ready to go.

[iortiz]

Maybe he was talking about Pawtucket. PawSox rotation does look good.

 

LOL, maybe.

[pruneface]

I enjoy reading your posts and I do like your philosophical outlook toward the over paying of players not just pitchers. I also like your optimism. You might be right. If the glass is half empty though, I am thinking that based on past history you only have two pitchers there that could go a full season without at least one stint on the DL. If there are no more moves made, we better hope that some of those young good arms playing in Rhode Island are ready to go.

 

Their biggest problem last year was hitting. Is it unreasonable to expect a decent performance from the rotation given that runs are at a premium these days (down about a whole run/game from 10 years ago)? I'm willing to entertain the possibility that a competitive team can get by with good pitching provided its hitting is above average. In other words, scoring runs is much harder now so pitchers across the board are becoming more effective.

[cp176]

Their biggest problem last year was hitting. Is it unreasonable to expect a decent performance from the rotation given that runs are at a premium these days (down about a whole run/game from 10 years ago)? I'm willing to entertain the possibility that a competitive team can get by with good pitching provided its hitting is above average. In other words, scoring runs is much harder now so pitchers across the board are becoming more effective.

 

I don't think that it is an unreasonable thought at all and if you expect it, I hope that you are right. That means that you must expect that staff to stay healthy and whole for the season. I also believe that good pitching can indeed be successful. If they stay healthy, they could be good. Once again I hope that I am wrong but I don't like the health record of 3 out of the 5. I don't think that you can be successful with one good and one average pitcher in any division at that level. I like thinking that they will all stay healthy and pitch the way many think they can. I just don't expect it. If this is the end product, I'll take what I get like the rest of us. You obviously are a positive person. I like that - so for the record - Renaudo,Barnes, Johnson, Owens, Rodriguez I think makes a pretty 5 at the triple A level.

[pruneface]

I don't think that it is an unreasonable thought at all and if you expect it, I hope that you are right. That means that you must expect that staff to stay healthy and whole for the season. I also believe that good pitching can indeed be successful. If they stay healthy, they could be good. Once again I hope that I am wrong but I don't like the health record of 3 out of the 5. I don't think that you can be successful with one good and one average pitcher in any division at that level. I like thinking that they will all stay healthy and pitch the way many think they can. I just don't expect it. If this is the end product, I'll take what I get like the rest of us. You obviously are a positive person. I like that - so for the record - Renaudo,Barnes, Johnson, Owens, Rodriguez I think makes a pretty 5 at the triple A level.

 

All these guys are young except for Clay, who's an old man in disguise. Like you listed, there are some decent prospects in the minors should a starter need shelf time. There's also that knuckleballer Wright. No team can expect to be competitive if they are decimated with injuries. I think there's reason for guarded optimism. If healthy, they should be able to keep the sox in games so their offense can win it. It remains for the games to be played.

[cp176]

All these guys are young except for Clay, who's an old man in disguise. Like you listed, there are some decent prospects in the minors should a starter need shelf time. There's also that knuckleballer Wright. No team can expect to be competitive if they are decimated with injuries. I think there's reason for guarded optimism. If healthy, they should be able to keep the sox in games so their offense can win it. It remains for the games to be played.

 

I would really like to see that one big signing. I think that a clear majority of fans, writers, and the rest of us wannabes expected or maybe still even expect it to happen. Whether it happens or not, I agree that there is reason for guarded optimism.

I really can't say that I am much of a Stephen Wright fan but who knows that may change as well. I do like some of those youngsters though. The health of that rotation will go a long way toward determining how the season goes. Let's hope that glass of water is half full and not half empty.

[Spitball]

I enjoy reading your posts and I do like your philosophical outlook toward the over paying of players not just pitchers. I also like your optimism. You might be right. If the glass is half empty though, I am thinking that based on past history you only have two pitchers there that could go a full season without at least one stint on the DL. If there are no more moves made, we better hope that some of those young good arms playing in Rhode Island are ready to go.

 

Thanks, cp. I very much enjoy your contributions. Building a team around high priced pitching is not necessarily a prescription for success. Otherwise, the 2011 Phillies, 2014 Dodgers, 2014 Tigers would have been champions.

[iortiz]

Thanks, cp. I very much enjoy your contributions. Building a team around high priced pitching is not necessarily a prescription for success. Otherwise, the 2011 Phillies, 2014 Dodgers, 2014 Tigers would have been champions.

 

Yeah but those teams were in POs and with realistic posibilities to make a big splash. Do u really think this rotation is even comparable with those? Really?

 

Again, hopefully I eat my words but I see a bunch of mediocre arms with serious prone injury issues in this current rotation.

[cp176]

Thanks, cp. I very much enjoy your contributions. Building a team around high priced pitching is not necessarily a prescription for success. Otherwise, the 2011 Phillies, 2014 Dodgers, 2014 Tigers would have been champions.

Very very true. Thnx for the compliment. Great fans on this board all hoping for the same result .

[User Name]

Yeah but those teams were in POs and with realistic posibilities to make a big splash. Do u really think this rotation is even comparable with those? Really?

 

Again, hopefully I eat my words but I see a bunch of mediocre arms with serious prone injury issues in this current rotation.

 

That's exactly the point he was trying to make. Furthermore, the 2013 Red Sox had a bunch of question marks and beat a behemoth of a rotation in the form of the Tigers on the way to the WS. No one expected Lester and Lackey to rebound the way they did.

[iortiz]

That's exactly the point he was trying to make. Furthermore, the 2013 Red Sox had a bunch of question marks and beat a behemoth of a rotation in the form of the Tigers on the way to the WS. No one expected Lester and Lackey to rebound the way they did.

 

What point?

[seabeachfred]

I think Renaudo has potential. He only has 7 games in the big leagues, but was 14-4 in Pawtucket last year with a 2.61 ERA. Needs to work on his control a bit, but he is someone I'd like to see get a shot as a starter if we need one.

 

I thought the same thing too Gomes. Renaudo looked real good in his first win of the year and it was against the Yankees. He might develop further and he was a very successful pitcher at both LSU and in the Cape Cod League so he knows how to win. Can he transfer that in a tougher environment is the question. As for getting a shot if we need a pitcher, I think you can safely put that one in the bank my friend. If Ben is really serious about now standing pat with our starters you can bet your last dime that Renaudo will get his shot sooner rather than later. Remember who we have in that rotation---one coming off a crippling season both in stats and health and another who if he blinks wrong is on the shelf for a month.

[iortiz]

I do not want to take away any credit to anybody of the 2013 red sox, cause they were a very exciting team to watch, but in that year a lot of good and unexpected things happened. The planets just aligned I would say.

 

Is it going to happen again if this is the finish product?

Hopefully, but this current rotation is not even a PO one in my book.

Edited January 23, 2015 by iortiz

[mvp 78]

I do not want to take away any credit to anybody of the 2013 red sox, cause they were a very exciting team to watch, but in that year a lot of good and unexpected things happened. The planets just aligned I would say.

 

Is it going to happen again if this is the finish product?

Hopefully, but this current rotation is not even a PO one in my book.

 

If the planets aligning mean Lackey was finally healthy, Lester pitched to career norms, Buchholz spent half the year on DL, and the rest of the rotation was mediocre at best, then I guess the planets aligned? It's not like every guy had career years and they lucked into the playoffs.

[iortiz]

If the planets aligning mean Lackey was finally healthy, Lester pitched to career norms, Buchholz spent half the year on DL, and the rest of the rotation was mediocre at best, then I guess the planets aligned? It's not like every guy had career years and they lucked into the playoffs.

 

You are missing the point. You are looking it in a retrospective way. In a retrospective take, it is easy to judge, even a 10 Y old can. Point is, look it as it is right now; entering into a new season. Did you expect a microscopic ERA from Buch while giving u 12 W even with his healthy situation during that season? Did you really expect a solid Lackey? a lot of scepticism was around Lester everywhere.

 

...And yes! a lot of things aligned as well. Our back-end of the BP was found during the season and their performance were simply ridiculous; an automatic win. Papi hit as he was out of this planet, specially in PO. etc.

 

Point is, while I was very sceptical entering into 2013 season, I was not this sceptical specially regarding pitching.

Edited January 23, 2015 by iortiz

[Palodios]

...And yes! a lot of things aligned as well. Our back-end of the BP was found during the season and their performance were simply ridiculous; an automatic win. Papi hit as he was out of this planet, specially in PO. etc.

 

The Red Sox built a bullpen with several excellent relief options that year. Andrew Bailey, Jack Hanrahan, Koji Uehara, Tazawa, Andrew Miller. Three guys with closer potential had season ending injuries. That was simply excellent-team-building that went well in some places and poorly in others.

 

If you're going to point to guys going ham, you're looking at the wrong sources. Felix Doubront's streak of consistency, Iglesias hitting like a major leaguer, Victorino being a beast, and Ellsbury staying healthy were pretty incredible.

[iortiz]

The Red Sox built a bullpen with several excellent relief options that year. Andrew Bailey, Jack Hanrahan, Koji Uehara, Tazawa, Andrew Miller. Three guys with closer potential had season ending injuries. That was simply excellent-team-building that went well in some places and poorly in others.

 

If you're going to point to guys going ham, you're looking at the wrong sources. Felix Doubront's streak of consistency, Iglesias hitting like a major leaguer, Victorino being a beast, and Ellsbury staying healthy were pretty incredible.

Bailey and Hanrahan were busts, so at the time you had two options, trade for a closer or try with Koji or Tazawa. It worked out but in all fairness nobody saw that coming specially with those numbers posted.

[iortiz]

The Red Sox built a bullpen with several excellent relief options that year. Andrew Bailey, Jack Hanrahan, Koji Uehara, Tazawa, Andrew Miller. Three guys with closer potential had season ending injuries. That was simply excellent-team-building that went well in some places and poorly in others.

 

If you're going to point to guys going ham, you're looking at the wrong sources. Felix Doubront's streak of consistency, Iglesias hitting like a major leaguer, Victorino being a beast, and Ellsbury staying healthy were pretty incredible.

Yeah! Add this as well to the planets haha.

 

Will all the things align again? I do not want to be negative but it is a looooooong crap shot.

[a700hitter]

It was very key in 2013 that Buch came out of the gate 11-0, and he was pitching to an ERA under 2. That was better than anyone would have predicted and it was a best case scenario. By the time he went on the DL, the team was rolling pretty good, because Lester had turned around his performance from the prior 2 seasons (a period where his performance was declining in direct correlation to losing movement on his cutter). Also key was the fact that the other 4 rotation spots made between 27 and 33 starts a piece. When you do that, you will have some consistency and usually be successful. Jake Peavy was acquired to pick up the slack for Buch and a slumping Doubs. He performed consistently too taking 10 starts. It was the healthiest year for our rotation since 2008 -- a year that we should have won another champion.

[Palodios]

Bailey and Hanrahan were busts, so at the time you had two options, trade for a closer or try with Koji or Tazawa. It worked out but in all fairness nobody saw that coming specially with those numbers posted.

 

It worked out because the bullpen was built in a way that it could endure multiple injuries. Koji's K/BB was historically good before coming to Boston-- there is something about having pinpoint control that can make a pitcher thrive. Look at his WHIP from the 4 previous years -- 0.64, 0.78, 0.70, 0.95. The guy just never gave up base runners.

[iortiz]

It worked out because the bullpen was built in a way that it could endure multiple injuries. Koji's K/BB was historically good before coming to Boston-- there is something about having pinpoint control that can make a pitcher thrive. Look at his WHIP from the 4 previous years -- 0.64, 0.78, 0.70, 0.95. The guy just never gave up base runners.

 

I like Koji and all he did but at the time Koji had very little experience closing. Not even comparable with the other 2 busts. At the time I clearly remember Cherrys asking for closers included Papelbon since Koji and Tazawa weren't that "safe bet" for the rest of the season left.

[User Name]

Experience has very little to do with closing effectiveness. You are arguing for the sake of arguing here anyways.

[a700hitter]

It worked out because the bullpen was built in a way that it could endure multiple injuries. Koji's K/BB was historically good before coming to Boston-- there is something about having pinpoint control that can make a pitcher thrive. Look at his WHIP from the 4 previous years -- 0.64, 0.78, 0.70, 0.95. The guy just never gave up base runners.

The best thing that could have happened was that Bailey and Hanrahan pulled a Bobby Jenks act and went down right away. We knew Koji had a quality arm and that he puts up good numbers, but his performance was other-worldly. It was definitely in the top 3 closer performances that I can remember. The other 2 were the year Eck had an 0.61 ERA and the year that Wilie Hernandez seemed to pitch everyday for the Tigers. Koji's season was another example of the planets aligning for the Red Sox in 2013.

[iortiz]

Experience has very little to do with closing effectiveness. You are arguing for the sake of arguing here anyways.

 

Then any reliever could close, and is not the case.

[Palodios]

Koji's season was another example of the planets aligning for the Red Sox in 2013.

 

I just want to point out that Koji's career WHIP is the lowest for any player with 200+ IP at 0.85. The next on the list is Kimbrel at .90. He had been very effective for his career -- the problem has always been health.

[a700hitter]

I just want to point out that Koji's career WHIP is the lowest for any player with 200+ IP at 0.85. The next on the list is Kimbrel at .90. He had been very effective for his career -- the problem has always been health.

I realize that, but getting one of the best season performances for a closer in the history of the game was not to be expected.