2014 Offseason Thread

[cp176]

I am very excited about this team. I don't think that it is the typical excitement that I feel every year. They are young almost across the board. They appear to be very talented. Just a couple more moves and they might take me well into my old age. I think that they are on the threshold of being as good as they have ever been. I might buy those tickets after all. I might also even slide on over to Ft. Myers if I can get out of New England.

[seabeachfred]

I still remember vividly reading a chapter in a large unit on Reconstruction back in college so many decades ago, and that chapter was entitled "The Critical Year". The year was 1866, the year after the Civil War ended and the theme was obvious-----which way would the country turn? Would it be President Johnson's way or that of the Radical Republicans? I liken that to our Red Sox this coming season. I think all of us will get a very clear picture of which way this team is going when the 2015 season is over. We spent big money to recharge an offense that was starving last season, we have some players hopefully who will contribute after overcoming a lot of injuries last year, and we have sort of retooled our starting rotation, though many of still think the job is not quite complete. The whole division right now is ours for the taking if we can play solidly this season and not have the reverses or pratfalls we suffered in 2014. By October I think those questions will be answered and I'm keeping the good thoughts coming that we're smiling about that time.

[Northern Star]

comparing a Red Sox team to the country after the Civil War is a showstopper even for you, Fred.

[Bellhorn04]

For that option to activate though, he'd have to pitch 200 innings.

 

This is about Cliff Lee's vesting option for 2016. From what I can tell, Lee is guaranteed the $12.5 million buyout even if the option doesn't vest.

[BSN07]

Apologies if this is being discussed elsewhere and I have missed it but what's everyone's thoughts on this supposed phenom from Cuba Yoan Moncada? He seems to be one of the biggest hyped players from Cuba to date. From what I've read he has 4 good tools in hit, power, arm and speed he looks to be a legit upper echelon prospect. I think the Sox need to be all in on him. Tho LAD and NYY are in the running too, not to mention if he doesn't get cleared before the end of the signing period the Sox will lose the chance to sign him and the Cubs would gain the chance. I don't think it's gonna take 6 months for him to get cleared tho.

[User Name]

This is about Cliff Lee's vesting option for 2016. From what I can tell, Lee is guaranteed the $12.5 million buyout even if the option doesn't vest.

 

Why would the buyout have to be paid out if the option doesn't vest?

[Palodios]

Apologies if this is being discussed elsewhere and I have missed it but what's everyone's thoughts on this supposed phenom from Cuba Yoan Moncada? He seems to be one of the biggest hyped players from Cuba to date. From what I've read he has 4 good tools in hit, power, arm and speed he looks to be a legit upper echelon prospect. I think the Sox need to be all in on him. Tho LAD and NYY are in the running too, not to mention if he doesn't get cleared before the end of the signing period the Sox will lose the chance to sign him and the Cubs would gain the chance. I don't think it's gonna take 6 months for him to get cleared tho.

 

Moncada certainly has been hyped enough. The story is kind of insane, and a real reason why improving relations with Cuba could really help baseball.

 

He's under house arrest in Guatemala, protected by guards with machine guns. Meanwhile, Scott Boras sent agents down to try to pry him away from his current agents, and the armed guards "escorted" them off the property.

 

Every single team sent multiple representatives to a Guatemala showcase in December. Every single one, even the Cubs and Rangers who probably can't even bid on him because they went over the international cap last year. The other teams will have to pay DOUBLE whatever he gets because of the international draft rules, and many of them will lose international drafting rights next year if they sign him.

 

Whoever wins the bidding gets an extremely talented player who will likely be even more of an arrogant prick than most of the other Cubans we've seen come up.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Palodios

[seabeachfred]

comparing a Red Sox team to the country after the Civil War is a showstopper even for you, Fred.

 

You've exposed me NS. The Civil War and the Red Sox are my two most consuming passions. Oh hell, I just let the cat out of the bag.

[seabeachfred]

He's certainly been hyped enough. The story is kind of insane, and a real reason why improving relations with Cuba could really help baseball.

 

He's under house arrest in Guatamala, protected by guards with machine guns. Meanwhile, Scott Boras sent agents down to try to pry him away from his current agents, and the armed guards "escorted" them off the property.

 

Every single team sent multiple representatives to a Guatamala showcase in December. Every single one, even the Cubs and Rangers who probably can't even bid on him because they went over the international cap last year. The other teams will have to pay DOUBLE whatever he gets because of the international draft rules, and many of them will lose international drafting rights next year if they sign him.

 

Whoever wins the bidding gets an extremely talented player who will likely be even more of an arrogant prick than most of the other Cubans we've seen come up.

 

No doubt these Cuban ballplayers have a ton of talent but teams like the Red Sox had better make sure these guys can function as team players or we could have a fractured clubhouse. If the emphasis is on self and not team trouble can erupt at any time. Puig of the Dodgers is a good example. I watched him on TV from time to time and read about him in the papers. Prick doesn't begin to describe this ********, and then there was Cespedes who soured everyone before he was traded. Check these guys out carefully.

[a700hitter]

If they want to be pricks for making millions playing baseball in a country where you can drive a car built after 1957, they are free to go back and live in a shithole of oppression.

[mvp 78]

Yup, there are already enough pricks born in the States everyday.

[Kimmi]

Why would the buyout have to be paid out if the option doesn't vest?

 

 

 

It isn't a straight vesting option. It's a club option with a $12.5 mil buyout that becomes guaranteed at 200 innings pitched. So, even Lee does not reach 200 innings, the Phillies can still exercise the option. And Lee is guaranteed $12.5 mil either way.

 

As Bellhorn said, if Lee stinks in 2015, that could be a very expensive one year contract.

[Kimmi]

Agreed. He thinks he is a genius.

 

 

Even worse, he thinks he's the main attraction of the ball games.

[Kimmi]

Whoever wins the bidding gets an extremely talented player who will likely be even more of an arrogant prick than most of the other Cubans we've seen come up.

 

 

The amount of hype surrounding this kid is indeed insane.

 

Honestly, I don't know much about him other than what I've read. Players need some degree of arrogance, IMO, but that line can be far too easily be crossed to where it becomes a detriment to the team rather than being an asset. Pedroia is as arrogant as they come, but in a manner that is good for the team both on and off the field. I guess that's the difference between being arrogant and being an arrogant pr__k.

[cp176]

The amount of hype surrounding this kid is indeed insane.

 

Honestly, I don't know much about him other than what I've read. Players need some degree of arrogance, IMO, but that line can be far too easily be crossed to where it becomes a detriment to the team rather than being an asset. Pedroia is as arrogant as they come, but in a manner that is good for the team both on and off the field. I guess that's the difference between being arrogant and being an arrogant pr__k.

 

Being a team player and being coachable at any level are valued attributes in athletes. I am sure that people that play against Pedroia probably do think that he is a bit arrogant. We just consider him a winner. It's ok to have a little chip on your shoulder and he proves that you can still be a decent person. The Sox have a taken a few chances in the past. Some have worked - others have not. The toughest and best athletes that I ever worked with with good humans. During a contest, you never really knew what they were thinking because they were able stay focused on the job and did not react to anything that came toward them from the outside. The good ones know that it isn't all about them.

[a700hitter]

Yup, there are already enough pricks born in the States everyday.

They should also be forced to live in an oppressive shithole like Cuba to gain some perspective.

[a700hitter]

Even worse, he thinks he's the main attraction of the ball games.

it will probably take him a few weeks before the genius realizes that he can't pencil in a DH.

[User Name]

It isn't a straight vesting option. It's a club option with a $12.5 mil buyout that becomes guaranteed at 200 innings pitched. So, even Lee does not reach 200 innings, the Phillies can still exercise the option. And Lee is guaranteed $12.5 mil either way.

 

As Bellhorn said, if Lee stinks in 2015, that could be a very expensive one year contract.

 

You misunderstand. The discussion referred to Lee costing the Sox 37.5 million if they traded for him and he bombed. What i'm telling Bellhorn is that if Lee doesn't pitch 200 innings, the buyout doesn't have to be paid.

[Kimmi]

it will probably take him a few weeks before the genius realizes that he can't pencil in a DH.

 

 

LOL

 

Actually, I was reading earlier where Maddon is toying with the idea of batting his pitcher 8th, ala La Russa. Just another example of him trying convince the baseball world of his genius.

[Palodios]

You misunderstand. The discussion referred to Lee costing the Sox 37.5 million if they traded for him and he bombed. What i'm telling Bellhorn is that if Lee doesn't pitch 200 innings, the buyout doesn't have to be paid.

 

11:$11M, 12:$21.5M, 13:$25M, 14:$25M, 15:$25M, 16:$27.5M club option ($12.5M buyout)

option becomes guaranteed if Lee 1) is not on the disabled list at end of 2015 season with injury to left elbow or left shoulder, and 2) has 200 IP in 2015 or 400 IP in 2014-15

 

Snippet from Cots. The way it is worded gives me the impression that the Phillies have to pay it no matter what. There is an option with a buyout on the contract. From what I understand, The 200 IP clause guarantees the final year at 27.5 to be vested, and the buyout will always be part of the contract.

[Kimmi]

You misunderstand. The discussion referred to Lee costing the Sox 37.5 million if they traded for him and he bombed. What i'm telling Bellhorn is that if Lee doesn't pitch 200 innings, the buyout doesn't have to be paid.

 

 

I understood the point you were trying to make to Bellhorn. What I am saying is that I am pretty sure that whether Lee pitches 200 innings or not, the Phillies are on the hook for the buy out.

 

As I said in my previous post, this is not a straight vesting option. It is a club option, albeit with a vesting clause, which is the difference. In other words, the club has control over whether to exercise the option or not, if Lee does not reach his 200 innings. With club option buyouts, the buyout is guaranteed whether the vesting clause is reached or not.

[Kimmi]

Snippet from Cots. The way it is worded gives me the impression that the Phillies have to pay it no matter what. There is an option with a buyout on the contract. From what I understand, The 200 IP clause guarantees the final year at 27.5 to be vested, and the buyout will always be part of the contract.

 

 

This is the way I interpret it as well.

[seabeachfred]

Being a team player and being coachable at any level are valued attributes in athletes. I am sure that people that play against Pedroia probably do think that he is a bit arrogant. We just consider him a winner. It's ok to have a little chip on your shoulder and he proves that you can still be a decent person. The Sox have a taken a few chances in the past. Some have worked - others have not. The toughest and best athletes that I ever worked with with good humans. During a contest, you never really knew what they were thinking because they were able stay focused on the job and did not react to anything that came toward them from the outside. The good ones know that it isn't all about them.

 

And Pedroia fits that bill. No one can say he puts himself before the team without looking silly. There's a difference between playing hard with a chip on your shoulder and playing with only your stats and personal baggage in mind. Cp, like you I did a lot of coaching as did Elktonnick and a few others on the board, and it is easy for us to see the difference between those two types of players. In fact, I would venture to guess that even if one did not coach a solid fan can tell the difference between a team player and one that counts only for himself. And the Red Sox cannot afford to g et stuck with any of the latter.

[Kimmi]

Being a team player and being coachable at any level are valued attributes in athletes. I am sure that people that play against Pedroia probably do think that he is a bit arrogant. We just consider him a winner. It's ok to have a little chip on your shoulder and he proves that you can still be a decent person. The Sox have a taken a few chances in the past. Some have worked - others have not. The toughest and best athletes that I ever worked with with good humans. During a contest, you never really knew what they were thinking because they were able stay focused on the job and did not react to anything that came toward them from the outside. The good ones know that it isn't all about them.

 

 

Agreed CP. Good post. This is one thing that I like so much about Holt. He is willing to play wherever the team needs him.

[User Name]

Snippet from Cots. The way it is worded gives me the impression that the Phillies have to pay it no matter what. There is an option with a buyout on the contract. From what I understand, The 200 IP clause guarantees the final year at 27.5 to be vested, and the buyout will always be part of the contract.

 

I understood the point you were trying to make to Bellhorn. What I am saying is that I am pretty sure that whether Lee pitches 200 innings or not, the Phillies are on the hook for the buy out.

 

As I said in my previous post, this is not a straight vesting option. It is a club option, albeit with a vesting clause, which is the difference. In other words, the club has control over whether to exercise the option or not, if Lee does not reach his 200 innings. With club option buyouts, the buyout is guaranteed whether the vesting clause is reached or not.

 

Both of the requirements need to be met in order for the option to vest. If the option doesn't vest, you don't have to pay the buyout. What Palodios just posted verifies it. Requirements 1 AND 2 need to be met for the option to become guaranteed.

[User Name]

http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/philadelphia-phillies/cliff-lee/

 

No contract breakdown i've found specifies that Cliff Lee earns the buyout no matter what. The Phillies have to exercise it only if the option becomes guaranteed, which he can only do via the requirements mentioned above.

[cp176]

Agreed CP. Good post. This is one thing that I like so much about Holt. He is willing to play wherever the team needs him.

 

You are right there. Have to look at guys like Holt under a different microscope. I think the Sox have done a good job recently of recognizing value in players like him. A poor attitude and clubhouse disruption doesn't tend to stick around in boston very long. that is the way it should be.

[pruneface]

I agree. The FO wouldn't have signed who they signed, and wouldn't have gone over the luxury tax this season if their eyes are on 2016. I believe they are all in it for this year.

 

Hi Kimmi. Is it enough? I think they need another starter. I can see the rationale for waiting midseason to see how the team is doing, however.

[Kimmi]

http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/philadelphia-phillies/cliff-lee/

 

No contract breakdown i've found specifies that Cliff Lee earns the buyout no matter what. The Phillies have to exercise it only if the option becomes guaranteed, which he can only do via the requirements mentioned above.

 

 

That doesn't make any sense. If Lee reaches 200 innings, then the option becomes guaranteed. If the option is guaranteed, the Phillies don't have the choice of buying out. They can only buy out if the option does not vest.

 

Here is a short blurb that Jeff Sullivan wrote about it.

 

"Lee's 2016 option will vest if he throws at least 200 innings in 2015, or if he throws at least 400 innings between 2014-2015. If he does that, he'll make his $135 million. If not, the Phillies will probably opt for the buyout, although it's impossible to say right now."

[Kimmi]

Hi Kimmi. Is it enough? I think they need another starter. I can see the rationale for waiting midseason to see how the team is doing, however.

 

 

Hi Pruneface. While I would definitely like to see another starter, and I think the Sox should add one, I don't think it's a necessity. I like the team as currently constructed and think they are legitimate contenders. I can see the rationale for waiting until midseason as well, but I'm still hopeful they pick up another starter this offseason.