Marahiro Tanaka And Sox Starting Rotation.

[a700hitter]

I think the scale has tilted away from them though. They have a big financial advantage, but not nearly as monstrous an advantage as it was even 5-10 years ago. They used to be the premier team, but in a few years from now, are they going to be any different from the Celtics? Storied winners of the past leading their sport in titles, but in 5 years from now, who knows, maybe the reckless spending catches up with them, and they become like the Celtics of the 90s and early 2000s.

I agreee with you on that. Actually, I think the scale has been gradually tilting away from them for decades. I would mark the beginning of that at about the time that Joe Cronin became league president. I think that was in the 60's. The scale tilted back in the 70's with free agency. That was due to economics and market size as opposed to any rigging of the system. I don't think that there has been any systemic unfairness favoring the Yankees in a long time. However, I firmly belilieve think that there was something shady with the series of deals that Gabe Paul pulled off with his former Indian team.

[a700hitter]

I don't see us even close to a matching a 300m dollar offer. LOL. So, no Kershaw to the Sox.

 

But if the Yankees go crazy after missing out on Tanaka, maybe they say the hell with the luxury tax and offer Kershaw 350m. That would be the end of sanity. But it wouldn't surprise me if the Stankees were backed into a corner, this is just the type they could make to 'buy themselves' back into contention.

 

PS I think anyone would be crazy to turn down 300m dollars unless they have a 'wink wink' agreement with another team in pocket for significantly more dollars.

Even if he is the next Sandy Koufax, he's not worth it. Remember, that Koufax lasted only until age 31.

[redsoxrules]

I don't see us even close to a matching a 300m dollar offer. LOL. So, no Kershaw to the Sox.

 

But if the Yankees go crazy after missing out on Tanaka, maybe they say the hell with the luxury tax and offer Kershaw 350m. That would be the end of sanity. But it wouldn't surprise me if the Stankees were backed into a corner, this is just the type of move they could make to 'buy themselves' back into contention.

 

PS I think anyone would be crazy to turn down 300m dollars unless they have an ironclad secret agreement with another team in hand for significantly more dollars.

 

Yeah, that's pretty shocking he declined that. He obviously will not get more. He must not want to play for LA

[mvp 78]

I just don't want to leave any doubt about my intentions to engage you on any topic. Your constant snarky broad based mean-spirited attacks aimed at TalkSox members has made you toxic as far as I am concerned. I'll not validate any of your opinions or discussions by engaging with you. Merry Christmas.

 

Delicious delicious irony.

[a700hitter]

Delicious delicious irony.

Chew on it.

[seabeachfred]

That subway series with the Mets sure did a lot for MLB!

 

The Cubs are a better storyline by not winning.

 

I'm not so sure about that anymore. I think if the Cubs got into a World Series all of baseball would rejoice---and I know the perfect opponent for them. You can guess who I'm talking about but it should be a slam dunk. Two classic franchises in the two classic ballparks. That would do a lot for baseball IMHO.

[seabeachfred]

Seriously. I don't think the Yankees winning is 'good for baseball'. It's good for the Yankees. What makes playoff baseball compelling, is not that you see the same old teams, but rather the storylines that develop for the teams that make it. Would I like to see the Cubs in the World Series? That would get hyped like crazy. I don't think they will, but that's just an example.

 

Using our team as an example - it was the Last to First story. And it was Boston Strong. I think the Boston Red Sox winning the World Series this past season was GREAT for baseball. A much stronger storyline than, oh btw Yankees make it to the Series for the Umpteenth time. But regardless of how good the 'story' is, bottom line we DID have the BEST TEAM in baseball. Our guys played their hearts out and earned that championship by winning against the best and most talented opponents surviving in the playoffs this year.

 

An A+ for that one vj. There were teams that had more raw talent, better hitting, rotations, and even power and defense, but the Red Sox has the BEST TEAM!!!!!! I can't recall any other team in baseball who demonstrated the total team concept of one for all, all for one concept as did our team this season. I would also assume that this gives some inspiration to some other clubs who saw what our team did.....if the Red Sox can do it, so can we. Of course it isn't that simple because they most likely don't have the chemistry we had and, secondly, they aren't the Red Sox.

[SoxSport]

Big markets and cable TV killed the Celtics. They've managed 1 championship in the big market era. The NBA has a phoney soft cap which benefits LA and NY. The Lakers have benefitted living miles above the cap, but the Knicks haven't--from incompetence.

 

In baseball, the Yankees were gifted with a championship team in the 1920s, courtesy of Harry Frazee who generously sold them the core of the Red Sox team. But the Yankees continued to dominate thru the 30s, 40s and 50s, thru the strength of their farm system plus excellent trading. They then went into a fall when Mantle retired. Free agency in the late 70s was made to order for them and new owner Steinbrenner, who vacuumed up every free agent in sight--pushing prices up for everybody else. This was when Boras was still in his crib, or maybe studying business somewhere. Recall that's when Haywood Sullivan rebelled against FAs by "losing" the contracts of Fisk and Lynn. The Yankees then dominated with a largely mercenary team. Then, as I recall, Steinbrenner got prosecuted for some shady doings, expelled as Yankee owner. The team was taken over by CBS, which promptly tanked them by cutting their purse strings. King George ultimately got reinstated, and went back to buying FAs again, but this time the farm system was also contributing the likes of Jeter, Posada, Pettite, Rivera,etc, and the Yankee dominated again in the 90s and early 2000s. But they are in trouble now, because they are loaded with big contracts of aging players and the farm system is barren. The Red Sox, on the other hand, are World champions, with a nice blend of prospects and free agents. Though it seems they still wrestle with the dilemma of giving prospects an opportunity vs signing free agents.

 

How did I get into all this? I don't remember.

[seabeachfred]

What I stated was an opinion. If you want to debunk an opinion, do a better job than some cherry picked stats. How about a three year analysis of attendance at visiting ballparks for the dates when the Yankees were in town-- or something with some statistical validity. Better yet, put me back on ignore. Things worked better that way

 

Man, you're a mean son of a bitch today Ted. Good to get agitated every so often, isn't it? I have to try and do the opposite, wind it down a little. BTW how about letting me know when you're going to be around so I can buzz you. We haven't had a baseball pow wow in some time and I love to pick your brain. Let me know.

[seabeachfred]

I think the scale has tilted away from them though. They have a big financial advantage, but not nearly as monstrous an advantage as it was even 5-10 years ago. They used to be the premier team, but in a few years from now, are they going to be any different from the Celtics? Storied winners of the past leading their sport in titles, but in 5 years from now, who knows, maybe the reckless spending catches up with them, and they become like the Celtics of the 90s and early 2000s.

 

You know Palodios, you're again on to something, but let me add an addenda to it. We can help this along if the Red Sox become perennial WS contenders year in and year out. We now have a second chance to do something like that and whether the Yankee fandom wants to admit it or not we are now the premium team in the game even though talent wise we have to take a back seat to two or three other ball clubs. Still the proof is in the eating and we have three titles the past ten years and no one in our league is closer than two away.

 

Back when I was a regular poster on the old Dirt Dog board before they sold it to some company and screwed things up, I said the first WS Title would end the curse and end our reputation of talented but lovable losers. A second one would validate us as a serious player in the baseball world. A third would put us in the elite category not shared by more than two or three other teams. In fact, had Tito been able to have won another WS his ticket would already be ready to punch to the Hall of Fame. Well we have three now and if we could get two more in the final seven years of this decade (2014-2020) we would be the elite team in the game. It is worth the gamble for the Red Sox to supplant the Yankees once and for all as the TEAM in the Big Leagues.

[seabeachfred]

Big markets and cable TV killed the Celtics. They've managed 1 championship in the big market era. The NBA has a phoney soft cap which benefits LA and NY. The Lakers have benefitted living miles above the cap, but the Knicks haven't--from incompetence.

 

In baseball, the Yankees were gifted with a championship team in the 1920s, courtesy of Harry Frazee who generously sold them the core of the Red Sox team. But the Yankees continued to dominate thru the 30s, 40s and 50s, thru the strength of their farm system plus excellent trading. They then went into a fall when Mantle retired. Free agency in the late 70s was made to order for them and new owner Steinbrenner, who vacuumed up every free agent in sight--pushing prices up for everybody else. This was when Boras was still in his crib, or maybe studying business somewhere. Recall that's when Haywood Sullivan rebelled against FAs by "losing" the contracts of Fisk and Lynn. The Yankees then dominated with a largely mercenary team. Then, as I recall, Steinbrenner got prosecuted for some shady doings, expelled as Yankee owner. The team was taken over by CBS, which promptly tanked them by cutting their purse strings. King George ultimately got reinstated, and went back to buying FAs again, but this time the farm system was also contributing the likes of Jeter, Posada, Pettite, Rivera,etc, and the Yankee dominated again in the 90s and early 2000s. But they are in trouble now, because they are loaded with big contracts of aging players and the farm system is barren. The Red Sox, on the other hand, are World champions, with a nice blend of prospects and free agents. Though it seems they still wrestle with the dilemma of giving prospects an opportunity vs signing free agents.

 

How did I get into all this? I don't remember.

 

Interesting post Sox Sport but please allow me to make one little correction. Dan Topping and Del Webb sold the Yankees to CBS in late 1964. and then CBS sold the team to Steinbrenner in time for the 1973 season. Other than that a decent and timely post.

[mvp 78]

I'm not so sure about that anymore. I think if the Cubs got into a World Series all of baseball would rejoice---and I know the perfect opponent for them. You can guess who I'm talking about but it should be a slam dunk. Two classic franchises in the two classic ballparks. That would do a lot for baseball IMHO.

 

The other tortured franchise? The Rays!

[Bellhorn04]

2003 was the year for the Red Sox and the Cubs to meet, with one of them guaranteed to break the drought. They were each 5 outs away from the World Series.

 

Who would have thought that 10 years later, we'd have won 3 more times and they'd be 0 for the last 105 years. I am so thankful for the last 10 years.

[User Name]

The other tortured franchise? The Guardians!

 

Fixed

[User Name]

2003 was the year for the Red Sox and the Cubs to meet, with one of them guaranteed to break the drought. They were each 5 outs away from the World Series.

 

Who would have thought that 10 years later, we'd have won 3 more times and they'd be 0 for the last 105 years. I am so thankful for the last 10 years.

 

What i wouldn't have thought was the fanbase turning from long-suffering to insufferably entitled in the same span. Even worse, most of the more entitled fans are pink-hats and bandwagon jumpers. Oh, the horror.

[seabeachfred]

2003 was the year for the Red Sox and the Cubs to meet, with one of them guaranteed to break the drought. They were each 5 outs away from the World Series.

 

Who would have thought that 10 years later, we'd have won 3 more times and they'd be 0 for the last 105 years. I am so thankful for the last 10 years.

 

Who would have thought is right Bellhorn!!!!!! Can you even imagine a baseball team founded in 1876 with a certain amount of tradition and a fervent following can have gone 105 years without a title Boggles the mind...and keep in mind they haven't been in a World Series for the past 68 years. That is some drought. 2003 could have been a seminal year for baseball if Grady Little hadn't had that anal-brain cramp and the Cubs could have shook off Bartman's swipe and just concentrated at the business at hand. They still had a lead and they led in games 3-2. That was just a royal choke up job. We were at 85 that year too, but the Cubs and Red Sox have gone in two different directions since then and good for us that we are on the sunny side of the street.

[SoxSport]

Interesting post Sox Sport but please allow me to make one little correction. Dan Topping and Del Webb sold the Yankees to CBS in late 1964. and then CBS sold the team to Steinbrenner in time for the 1973 season. Other than that a decent and timely post.

 

I said I didn't remember.

[redsoxrules]

Tanaka now being posted. f***. I was hopping he would hold out unitl next year

[Palodios]

Sounds like the Cubs are going to go all out for him. Yankees might too. It is going to be one hell of a bidding war.

[Behindenemylines]

Sounds like the Cubs are going to go all out for him. Yankees might too. It is going to be one hell of a bidding war.

 

Hopefully, the rumor of him wanting to play on the west coast are true. Better yet him signing with the Cubs would be great. I hate to see the $pankees get a quick fix by throwing $$$$$ at a problem.

[dupree]

I hope the Mariners sign him. That would be the ultimate shot at the Yankees. Losing Cano and Tanaka to Seattle would be awesome. But i wouldnt rule out the Angels going all in on him. They have been a lil quiet this offseason and need some starting pitching so Tanaka could land there. I just hate that Tanaka is going to get posted i thought the Management had decided to offer him a huge contract so he would stay another year but oh well.

[vjcsmoke]

I hope the Mariners sign him. That would be the ultimate shot at the Yankees. Losing Cano and Tanaka to Seattle would be awesome. But i wouldnt rule out the Angels going all in on him. They have been a lil quiet this offseason and need some starting pitching so Tanaka could land there. I just hate that Tanaka is going to get posted i thought the Management had decided to offer him a huge contract so he would stay another year but oh well.

 

Problem is that there's no way Japanese teams can match the money he would make in the Majors. Tanaka will probably get at LEAST an average of 15m/year in MLB. Probably the most his Japanese team could comfortably afford to offer would be 5m per year and only one year deal at that cos he ain't gonna stay past his window to become a free agent eligible for MLB.

 

Would LOVE to see the Mariners with Cano and Tanaka! Ichiro was a huge star in Seattle, so it might not be beyond the realm of possibility that Tanaka ends up there.

[SoxSport]

On Tanaka, the Red Sox should just sit on the sidelines with a smile and watch the nouveau riche west coast take on the Yankees.

[Behindenemylines]

On Tanaka, the Red Sox should just sit on the sidelines with a smile and watch the nouveau riche west coast take on the Yankees.

 

Unless the Sox move some $$$$ they have no choice then to sit on the side. I haven't heard anyone come out and say it, but is Tanaka better then Darvish?

[iortiz]

Unless the Sox move some $$$$ they have no choice then to sit on the side. I haven't heard anyone come out and say it, but is Tanaka better then Darvish?

 

As I said, If he is something between Darvish and Ryu, call it deal. On the other hand, if he turns into a D-Matsuzaka 2.0, that contract will be a disaster. He's young and I have read great things about him (reason why tons of teams have showed interest); seems like he has the stuff to be at least a #2, IDK, only time will tell.

[Behindenemylines]

Its the Dice-K situation they went through that might keep the Sox from even thinking about getting involved. As good as Darvish was last year he still broke down a little coming down the stretch. MLB teams have to take into consideration how the Japanese pitchers are handled differently over there.

[BSN07]

I read somewhere he was throwing like 150 pitch complete games. The Japanese teams don't give a s*** about the elite players long term health. They know if he's really good he will be going to American so they get as much out of them why they have them and let the ML team deal with the ticking time bomb. I'd pass on him. I hope Seattle gets him because that division would be fun to watch.

[Spitball]

I read somewhere he was throwing like 150 pitch complete games. The Japanese teams don't give a s*** about the elite players long term health. They know if he's really good he will be going to American so they get as much out of them why they have them and let the ML team deal with the ticking time bomb. I'd pass on him. I hope Seattle gets him because that division would be fun to watch.

 

I have heard similar stories. I know his last two outings saw him throw 160 pitches in game six of the Japanese Series, and then come back the very next day to close out game seven with 15 more pitches. Can you imagine an American team doing either?

 

He also threw 359 innings and had 9 complete games before he turned 20. As a 24 year-old, he has already thrown 1315 innings with 53 complete games.

 

I hope someone else gambles $100 million (with signing fee) on this guy's uncertain future.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Spitball

[User Name]

I have heard similar stories. I know his last two outings saw him throw 160 pitches in game six of the Japanese Series, and then come back the very next day to close out game seven with 15 more pitches. Can you imagine an American team doing either?

 

He also threw 359 innings and had 9 complete games before he turned 20. As a 24 year-old, he has already thrown 1315 innings with 53 complete games.

 

I hope someone else gambles $100 million (with signing fee) on this guy's uncertain future.

 

Spot on. I'd also add the fact that there is an adjustment period for these guys coming to pitch on a different mound/different sized ball/different amount of rest. Darvish is a freak of nature, and even he had some growing pains his first year. For a guy that's decidedly inferior in Tanaka's case, you are likely throwing out that first year out the window from the get-go while he adjusts to the league.

[jacksonianmarch]

Decidedly inferior? Maybe he doesn't throw as hard, but he isn't decidedly inferior. Tanaka did go undefeated with a miniscule ERA through a full season. Their numbers are very similar. Tanaka has a deeper arsenal whereas Darvish has the harder FB and strikeout capability. I think both end up as front line starters