Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

You don't just sign players to sign players. They have to be smart business choices as it effects how you can sustain a team long term. Sometimes that means waiting.

 

Again why is it so hard to believe these guys can bounce back to career norms? Does wearing "Red Sox" on your jersey make that feat impossible?

 

Why is it hard to believe these guys can bounce back? Let me be very frank here. Lester last season and the month of September the year before was a total s***, both on the mound and in the dugout and club house. Instead of dedicating himself to make up for his folderoo in late 2011 he came to ST with a chip on his shoulder, spent most the season bitching and complaining about calls with the umpires and most of the time melted away on the diamond. He became a very hateful character and in Dan Shaunessy's own words to me....a first class *******!!!!!!!!!

 

Buchholz, mr nervous nelly. Can this guy put even one f***ing season together without breaking down like an old car? Can we expect a different Clay this season instead of the one we've seen since he became part of the rotation.

 

Lackey??? Coming off major surgery, can be really be expected to be a quality pitcher after two seasons of s***ing the bed for us?

 

Doubrant? When will potential finally emerge as talent?

Dempster? In the AL East? You've to be friggin' kidding me!!!!!!!

 

That's why my friend.

[SCM33]

It's better to have opened eyes. We can hope for a surprise, but if it doesn't happen the disappointment will not be as crushing, because we knew the probability that it would come. I am still hoping for some reinforcements. I never give up hope.

What were the alternatives? Everyday, same old s***. What were the alternatives????

 

^ This is all ridiculous. If you can't back up your arguments, just say nothing. It's hard to back up some opinions, but this stuff ^ is garbage.

....and keep in mind that I do like you as a member here, but you and SBF are the most negative members here. There is a difference between being critical and negative. I am critical of them, very critical.....but I am also very realistic. There was very little on the market that would have been worth the investment.

 

Sorry, I don't realize NAPOLI will play 1B for us--------not at all. Glad you have confidence in the front office getting this done once and for all, but I don't have that confidence in that bungling bunch. Yes, I hope it does get done because I don't like the idea of having a stumblebum like Gomez playing first base for us. Here's to getting Napoli signed and sealed.

What is a stumblebum? Its not a real word since spell check detected an error with it as I typed it. When will you get used to the idea that we aren't spending money on bad investments this offseason?

 

BTW, we are making the playoffs this season, and its not going to be decided by Gomez playing 1B. It will be decided by our starting pitchers performing to their abilities.

[RedSoxNC84]

Sox looking at Javier Vazquez, who says he's considering a return to MLB. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

[Lucienbel]

Sox looking at Javier Vazquez, who says he's considering a return to MLB. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

 

I feel decent in the fact that he'd be depth and I seriously doubt he'd be any kind of investment. Seems like someone who would probably just get a minor league deal with an invite at most.... Couldn't hurt really.

 

While I don't really see him as the kind of depth I'd like the Red Sox to add, I don't see a real downside to this. He's always thrown a lot of innings so he's somewhat interesting at the least.

[Bellhorn04]

Some people in all walks of life like to fool themselves about things until it hits them in the face. Their take on this is that why worry and just be happy until the building finally falls on them. At least they were assured of good things by keeping up a brave front.

 

Remember, falling off a 30 story building can be exhilirating at hell, but its when the body meets up with the ground that reality sets in----way to late though. Some of us know what's going on Ted. Pollyannism will never take over this board.

 

What the board should never do is divide up into the Pollyanna party and the Pessimist party or whatever.

 

Everybody should just have their say without being labelled.

[BSN07]

Why is it hard to believe these guys can bounce back? Let me be very frank here. Lester last season and the month of September the year before was a total s***, both on the mound and in the dugout and club house. Instead of dedicating himself to make up for his folderoo in late 2011 he came to ST with a chip on his shoulder, spent most the season bitching and complaining about calls with the umpires and most of the time melted away on the diamond. He became a very hateful character and in Dan Shaunessy's own words to me....a first class *******!!!!!!!!!

 

Buchholz, mr nervous nelly. Can this guy put even one f***ing season together without breaking down like an old car? Can we expect a different Clay this season instead of the one we've seen since he became part of the rotation.

 

Lackey??? Coming off major surgery, can be really be expected to be a quality pitcher after two seasons of s***ing the bed for us?

 

Doubrant? When will potential finally emerge as talent?

Dempster? In the AL East? You've to be friggin' kidding me!!!!!!!

 

That's why my friend.

 

Ok you have taken "the glass is empty" look on every single SP. Go take that same look at all the other division SP and maybe you won't feel so bad about the Sox chances. In fact I will give it a whirl,

 

TB- Lost Shields, needs Hellickson and Moore to become 2-3, if they don't they are in trouble as they will have a harder time adding talent.

 

Baltimore- hahaha just look at the rotation, I don't even have to say anything.

 

Yankees- CC had elbow surgery, Pineda will give nothing this season, Hughes is as wonky as Bucc, Kuroda is good, but we know what happens to Japanese pitchers exposed over time in the AL East. Nova? he needs to take a big step forward

 

Toronto- Romero is terrible, Johnson is Beckett 2.0, Buerhle is a soft tossing LHP now and Dickey is a 38 year old KB riding a three year run of success. He will either regress or keep his streak going and probably be considered the greatest KB ever. What's more likely?

 

Now an alternate look at the Sox SP

 

I'm not willing to overlook Lester's body of work for his career for a 12 month span.

 

Doubront talent emerged last season when he was the head of the rotation for the beginning of the season. He hit a wall as he broke past his innings total from the previous season and understandably struggled for a period. I believe his last 5-6 starts last season were all good starts.

 

I probably dislike that moose knuckle Lackey more then anyone here. But even I can step back and look at his ineptitude in Boston being partly to blame from a bum elbow. He wouldn't be the first and won't be the last guy to bounce back from TJS.

 

I wasn't thrilled with Dempster. I would have rather had Marcum considering he has some AL experience. But given the Sox issues last year in the rotation, getting a guy that pitches close to 200 innings every season was important.

[a700hitter]

What the board should never do is divide up into the Pollyanna party and the Pessimist party or whatever.

 

Everybody should just have their say without being labelled.

Here here or hear hear!

[a700hitter]

The odds are against all the "ifs" coming out in a positive way. That's just how it is. If you have one question mark, if it doesn't work out, you might be okay. In order of importance, both Lester and Buchholz need to rebound. If one of them doesn't rebound, we're dead. Next in importance is that Dempster is not an ALE pi?ata. We don't need him to be an AllStar, but he needs to be solid and make quality starts. Lackey needs to be at least 2010 Lackey. We can live without Dempster or Lackey if Buch and Lester come up big. I don't think we can survive both Lackey and Dempster failing even if Buch and Lester come up big.

[BSN07]

The odds are against all the "ifs" coming out in a positive way. That's just how it is. If you have one question mark, if it doesn't work out, you might be okay. In order of importance, both Lester and Buchholz need to rebound. If one of them doesn't rebound, we're dead. Next in importance is that Dempster is not an ALE pi?ata. We don't need him to be an AllStar, but he needs to be solid and make quality starts. Lackey needs to be at least 2010 Lackey. We can live without Dempster or Lackey if Buch and Lester come up big. I don't think we can survive both Lackey and Dempster failing even if Buch and Lester come up big.

 

Ok that's a little more reasonable. I don't think all ? will fail or turn out perfectly. It will be some combination.

[a700hitter]

Ok that's a little more reasonable. I don't think all ? will fail or turn out perfectly. It will be some combination.

I never said anything otherwise. However, I do think that almost all of the question marks need to be answered on the positive side in order for the team to compete. That is unlikely. At least 3 of the 5 need to come through and in that 3 of 5 scenario Buchholz and Lester performing would be a must to compete. If one of them falters, we would need 4 of 5 to perform. That is not impossible, but highly unikely.

[Palodios]

I never said anything otherwise. However, I do think that almost all of the question marks need to be answered on the positive side in order for the team to compete. That is unlikely. At least 3 of the 5 need to come through and in that 3 of 5 scenario Buchholz and Lester performing would be a must to compete. If one of them falters, we would need 4 of 5 to perform. That is not impossible, but highly unikely.

 

If one of Lester/Buch pitches like an ace, and the rest of the rotation doesn't completely s*** the bed, they're in good shape. Its much easier to fill the #2/3 spots midseason than the number one spot

[BSN07]

I never said anything otherwise. However, I do think that almost all of the question marks need to be answered on the positive side in order for the team to compete. That is unlikely. At least 3 of the 5 need to come through and in that 3 of 5 scenario Buchholz and Lester performing would be a must to compete. If one of them falters, we would need 4 of 5 to perform. That is not impossible, but highly unikely.

 

I'm leaning towards Farrell having a big effect on the pitchers. Clay was one of the more promising arms and Lester was considered one of the best young LHP in the game before Farrell left. Both have trailed off since Farrell left to get his bumps in Canada.

 

We are just in wait and see mode as it's only January. I think a little more optimism will trickle into the board once the boys head south for ST. This is the rotten in between stage of the off season :thumbdown

[a700hitter]

It depends on how well Lester/Buchholz pitches, and how Dubront/Dempster pitches. If one of Buchholz/Lester puts its together as a #1, and one of Dubront/Dempster puts it together as a #2/3, I would bet that there are enough pieces for the team to fill in #4-5.

 

The middle of the rotation may be a problem, but maybe they'll find another starter. My point is if only one of L/B has a 2010 season where he pitches like a lock-down ace, it helps the team out immensely.

Two holes in the rotation usually spells disaster for a team, because it puts pressure on the other 3 to win nearly every start. It also puts an enormous strain on the pen which would likely reduce its effectiveness as a result of over use. I leave open the possibility that we could survive if Lester and Buch pitch to their potential, but it would be tight. If one of them falters, I don't see any other combination of 3 that could have us survive 2 holes in the rotation. It's just too much to overcome.

 

With regard to the possibility of filling a hole during the season, that is not easy to do, and the organization has not shown an inclination to do what it takes to make such an acquisition during the season. Also, if there are 2 holes in the rotation, the team could be in such a deep hole at the trading deadline that it wouldn't matter.

[a700hitter]

I'm leaning towards Farrell having a big effect on the pitchers. Clay was one of the more promising arms and Lester was considered one of the best young LHP in the game before Farrell left. Both have trailed off since Farrell left to get his bumps in Canada.

 

We are just in wait and see mode as it's only January. I think a little more optimism will trickle into the board once the boys head south for ST. This is the rotten in between stage of the off season :thumbdown

I am not a big believer in the notion that pitching coaches have anything more than a nominal influence. I am not counting on that. I am starting to believe that the staff would markedly improve if Salty is traded. Of course, if Salty is traded and the staff improves, everyone will attribute it to the positive influence of Farrell. IMO, they would be mistaken.

[User Name]

What the board should never do is divide up into the Pollyanna party and the Pessimist party or whatever.

 

Everybody should just have their say without being labelled.

 

He doesn't seem to understand the notion that he can post his opinions with being a jerk and insulting other members of the board.

[BSN07]

I am not a big believer in the notion that pitching coaches have anything more than a nominal influence. I am not counting on that. I am starting to believe that the staff would markedly improve if Salty is traded. Of course, if Salty is traded and the staff improves, everyone will attribute it to the positive influence of Farrell. IMO, they would be mistaken.

 

I think it would be a combo of Farrell coming back and Salty leaving.

 

And pitching coaches do make a difference. The good ones at least. Most of it is on the player, but coaches have the purpose.

[User Name]

I think it would be a combo of Farrell coming back and Salty leaving.

 

And pitching coaches do make a difference. The good ones at least. Most of it is on the player, but coaches have the purpose.

 

Two words: Dave Duncan. Saying that pitching coaches do not have a profound effect on pitchers (specially the young ones) is a display of ignorance imo.

[BSN07]

Two words: Dave Duncan. Saying that pitching coaches do not have a profound effect on pitchers (specially the young ones) is a display of ignorance imo.

 

Yup. Some guys are good with younger pitchers, some guys are tweakers, some are the masters of overhauling guys and some are good at all of them. Whatever it is, coaches have influence. If they didn't matter, they wouldn't exist.

[a700hitter]

I think it would be a combo of Farrell coming back and Salty leaving.

 

And pitching coaches do make a difference. The good ones at least. Most of it is on the player, but coaches have the purpose.

I think the biggest role played by pitching coaches is keeping pitchers ready by making sure that they gets their work in, and he provides information to the manager with regard to how a guy looks. As for helping pitchers figure things out, I think that does not happen very often. I have not taken a scientific survey, but I have spoken with a number of former pitchers. When I asked Seaver and Koosman about the Met organization's philosophy on developing pitchers they laughed. I noted how many of them had similar deliveries and mechanics. They told me that they learned from each other-- that Joe Pignatano was busy tending to his tomato plants. By and large, the pitchers watch each other and learn from each other. There are exceptions. Dave Duncan has been a success, but on each of his staffs he has had some great pitchers who were good teachers starting with Dave Stewart on the A's. A fellow pitcher, Larry Sherry has been credited by Sandy Koufax with turning Koufax's career around. I don't have a lot of faith in Farrell turning guys around. He didn't do such a great job in Toronto. Ricky Romero's promising career took a nose dive under Farrell, and Alvarez flopped too. When the highly regarded Leo Mazzone went to Baltimore he couldn't accomplish a thing. No one improved. Mazzone looked like a genius because of Maddox, Glavine and Smoltz et al.

 

IMO, the bigger impact will come from losing Salty.

[BSN07]

I think the biggest role played by pitching coaches is keeping pitchers ready by making sure that they gets their work in, and he provides information to the manager with regard to how a guy looks. As for helping pitchers figure things out, I think that does not happen very often. I have not taken a scientific survey, but I have spoken with a number of former pitchers. When I asked Seaver and Koosman about the Met organization's philosophy on developing pitchers they laughed. I noted how many of them had similar deliveries and mechanics. They told me that they learned from each other-- that Joe Pignatano was busy tending to his tomato plants. By and large, the pitchers watch each other and learn from each other. There are exceptions. Dave Duncan has been a success, but on each of his staffs he has had some great pitchers who were good teachers starting with Dave Stewart on the A's. A fellow pitcher, Larry Sherry has been credited by Sandy Koufax with turning Koufax's career around. I don't have a lot of faith in Farrell turning guys around. He didn't do such a great job in Toronto. Ricky Romero's promising career took a nose dive under Farrell, and Alvarez flopped too. When the highly regarded Leo Mazzone went to Baltimore he couldn't accomplish a thing. No one improved. Mazzone looked like a genius because of Maddox, Glavine and Smoltz et al.

 

IMO, the bigger impact will come from losing Salty.

 

That's one organization in the 1970's.

 

Toronto did not have good SP in Farrell's tenure. Romero had one decent year and got over hyped. That and for a stretch there it seemed every SP hit the DL with some major injury. Hard to blame that on Farrell. All I know is Boston's pitching was much better while he was around.

 

You think TB, ATL, Miami, Oakland and SF all teams that produce solid P are all just learning from one another in the BP?

[jung]

Nobody is likely to want to hear this but in truth, pro baseball players are more responsible for themselves than any of the other players that play high level pro team sports in the US. Football and Hockey probably are the most structured sports. They are violent. In both cases the risk is much higher that as a player you may just leave the game in a pine box or at least never be the same again. Best way to get hurt in either of those two sports is for a teammate to miss an assignment and for you to get blindsided or just plain run over because of it.

 

Baseball is without question the most independent of the team sports. Players are pretty much responsible for themselves. This is not the first you have heard me say this. I said it often enough when folks wanted to string up the Sox conditioning coaches and I called them glorified towel holders cause that is in essence what they are. They will help you with your routines, nice to have around but have authority over nothing.

 

Baseball is built on the principle of the independent contractor. While on the job site, there are a set of overarching rules that each must abide by. However, nobody tells you how to do your job. The prime contractor does not have a guy that is a specialist in your particular area that governs what you are going to do. He might have some advice for you that comes from a particular knowledge he has as the prime on this particular job but he is not going to teach you your job.

 

I know it might sound kind of silly but in truth, pitchers and players generally learn more from each other and from their own efforts than they will ever learn from a major league coach at the professional level. They bring more in knowledge into the game than they are ever going to take from it. They might hire a personal trainer that is a fitness expert. They might hire a guy to help them in the off season. They might go back to a buddy or old coach that knew them when they had it right.

 

Once a player gets to the major leagues the assumption is that he has learned his craft. He has graduated if you will and is now an independent contractor working as any other independent contractor would. In part that is why I commented last year that sending Bard with all of his issues right into an ML rotation was a real oddity to me because Bard would be caught in no mans land....there would be no assets at the ML level designed to actually teach him what he did not know. If they were truly serious about turning Bard into a starter, they really had no choice but to send him back at least one level if not more than one level in order to find a spot where he would have the assets available that he would need every day. But that is not what the Sox wanted to do. Bard wanted to start...he was a ML ballplayer...the Sox wanted to take the shot that he could start.

 

Coaches are not meaningless in Major League baseball but they are not more than advisors either. They are advisors that have grown up in the same system that they are a part of. You are not ever going to see a coach at the ML level even act like he can govern what a player will or won't do....how he will hit, how he will pitch, how he will do anything. The player may ask for his help and he will give it willingly but he will give it almost the way a valet attends to his employer. Lester's comments about "fearing" Farrell when he was the pitching coach, says more about Lester than it does about Farrell.

[Spitball]

I think it would be a combo of Farrell coming back and Salty leaving.

 

And pitching coaches do make a difference. The good ones at least. Most of it is on the player, but coaches have the purpose.

 

You are right. Major league pitching coaches do make a difference.

 

A pitching staff may have 11 or 12 individuals with individual mechanics and abilities, but the pitching coach has to keep the staff opporating efficiently. Each individual pitcher has mechanical processes that starts with toeing the rubber and ends with the follow through. In between there are a series of necessary actions including leg lift, hand seperation, forward thrust, elbow alignment, release point, and foot landing.

 

A pitcher's ability to repeat the all the complexities of his pitching motion are the result of thousands of repetitions of that motion which results in rote muscle memory. A pitching coach must be able to detect when a flaw surfaces in the chain of events that lead to an effective pitch.

 

Also, a pitching coach establishes a pitching philosophy. Dave Duncan was famous for his "pitch to contact" approach to pitching, and he turned around a lot of careers. Matsuzaka was an excellent example of an uncoachable pitcher.

 

This is an era in which there is a need to maximize a pitcher's velocity and effectiveness. The process doesn't come by way of a bunch of guys doing their own thing on the mound.

[jung]

I would say that there is not pitching coach alive that could bend pitchers to adopt a particular approach, not with the kind of money at stake these days. Pitchers simply are to different one to the next. Even what they do with and for each other is not more than a series of efforts to try something that might work.

 

It is true that a pitching coach has to understand each pitchers motion and try if he can to catalog them in such a way as to able to detect when one of them has gone awry. More importantly he has to be up to speed on the changes that the pitcher has made in the offseason if he has made any so that the coach is not one year behind where the pitcher is now. However there is no one way to pitch. Sure drop and drive power pitchers are going to use their lower bodies more and all power pitchers are more likely to come as much over the top as they can but you can't cookie cutter these guys. If a pitching coach had a bunch of soft tossers he could probably try to get them pitching to contact especially if they were cost controlled but I happen to think that the era of coaches "dictating" anything to players is gone.

 

The Manager is the only guy this generation of players really cares about because he rules their playing time and even that control is clearly limited. You have to go back a lotta' years to find that higher level of control being exercised by hitting and pitching coaches.

 

Coaches may advise the Manager with regard to who should play or who should pitch but the Manager is going to decide who plays and who does not, at least with regard to day to day decisions, the GM having more to do with who is actually on the roster to begin with.

 

Coaches will help players and watch for changes in their motion or in the swing for a hitter but they are't dictating anything to these guys. Would you let some guy making a few $100k per year dictate to you what you are going to do to maintain your multimillion $$ stature?

[jacksonianmarch]

Red Sox are looking at Javier Vazquez, who wants to return for 2013. Please, please, please make this happen.

[Lucienbel]

Red Sox are looking at Javier Vazquez, who wants to return for 2013. Please, please, please make this happen.

 

All the news I've heard on him say he's throwing well too. I said it in another thread too, but if you can get him on a minor league contract with an invite to Spring Training it wouldn't be a bad idea really.

 

The Nationals seem to be offering him a minor league contract with an opt out if he isn't called up to the majors by a certain point. I'd like to see the Red Sox offer something comparable to this. The one advantage the Nationals have is he seems to be pretty driven to play for a contender, so I'd imagine he'd favor them.

[jacksonianmarch]

He isnt going to take a minor league deal. He'll get a big league offer with some money to it, something in the range of $5 mil or so

[jacksonianmarch]

And I REALLY hope he ends up in Fenway. Small parks and big stages make Javy a dull boy

[Lucienbel]

And I REALLY hope he ends up in Fenway. Small parks and big stages make Javy a dull boy

 

I'd really hope if he were able to get a major league deal it wouldn't be from the Red Sox. They don't seem to want to give major league deals to any other pitchers, so I hope he wouldn't become an exception.

[BSN07]

I don't like Javy on anything other then a minor league deal. And that probably won't happen. He needs to join a NL contender. Phillies are looking for a cheap replacement I believe. That makes more sense. We have witnessed not one but two stints that say Javy can't handle the AL East(although the division is a less of a monster then it was his last tour).

[mvp 78]

He isnt going to take a minor league deal. He'll get a big league offer with some money to it, something in the range of $5 mil or so

 

There's no f'n way... Is there?