Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[Dojji]

You really can't grasp anything today. In fact for the last couple of day, I hope that you understand yourself.

 

Well thanks for that non-sequitur.

[Dojji]

I am sorry, but in my business, not doing anything is not making progress toward a long term plan. Saying that not going for Greinke, Hamilton et. al. is an implementation of their plan for the future is a stretch. I wish that I could sell that to my boss-- that my doing nothing was progress, because at least I didn't make any stupid moves. They didn't blow up Fenway either. Was that also part of their implementation of their long term plans?

 

Not doing the wrong thing is better than doing the wrong thing. Is that really so difficult to comprehend?

 

Sometimes taking the best immediate opportunity does not lead to the best long-term results. If you can't wait through a market correction to get the best possible deal, and you feel you must evaluate everything only on the basis of immediate gain, you're not much of a businessman

[BSN07]

And this is exactly what BSN07 is talking about. The fact that you can't grasp his point IS his point.

 

It's ok dojji, he's a lost cause. All I can hope is someone else will read what I'm saying and be able to comprehend it. It's certainly not a view that can be understood with horse blinders on.

[a700hitter]

Not doing the wrong thing is better than doing the wrong thing. Is that really so difficult to comprehend?

 

Sometimes taking the best immediate opportunity does not lead to the best long-term results. If you can't wait through a market correction and get the best possible deal and evaluate everytong only on the basis of immediate gain, you're not much of a businessman

Business is not about doing nothing, especially when your business is very weak or deficient in a critical area as is the Red Sox pitching. If they don't want to improve the major league staff then they should be improving their pitching on the farm. It's a completely unrealistic to think that there were no opportunities to improve either their current or future pitching. You are entitle to your own opinion, however, I am free to view them as lame ass excuses.

[a700hitter]

It's ok dojji, he's a lost cause. All I can hope is someone else will read what I'm saying and be able to comprehend it. It's certainly not a view that can be understood with horse blinders on.

My guess is that neither of you has a real job in a real business responsible to management or stockholders. Just a guess. Doing nothing when your business has deficiencies is not progress. You would get fired.

[Dojji]

Business is not about doing nothing

 

Apparently someone failed economics.

 

Business is about holding when holding is the best way to build value. Buisness is about making moves when making moves is the best way to build value. Both are valid strategies depending on the situation.

[BSN07]

Not doing the wrong thing is better than doing the wrong thing. Is that really so difficult to comprehend?

 

Sometimes taking the best immediate opportunity does not lead to the best long-term results. If you can't wait through a market correction to get the best possible deal, and you feel you must evaluate everything only on the basis of immediate gain, you're not much of a businessman

 

No he can't. Doing anything is better then nothing to him. Well until it doesn't work out, then it gets filed as a "boob" move.

[BSN07]

My guess is that neither of you has a real job in a real business responsible to management or stockholders. Just a guess. Doing nothing when your business has deficiencies is not progress. You would get fired.

 

Actually my business is baseball. I literally get paid to coach, scout and develop talent through KNBSB here in the Netherlands. If you were in charge of a baseball team, you would get fired.

[a700hitter]

Apparently someone failed economics.

 

Business is about holding when holding is the best way to build value. Buisness is about making moves when making moves is the best way to build value. Both are valid strategies depending on the situation.

It is never about doing nothing when your business is deficient in a critical area. You may not be able to fix the problem right away, but doing nothing is not progress. You really have never had a responsible position, have you?

[BSN07]

It is never about doing nothing when your business is deficient in a critical area. You may not be able to fix the problem right away, but doing nothing is not progress. You really have never had a responsible position, have you?

 

They added a SP in Dempster and added 2 solid BP pieces. They had 4 guys returning with pretty much guaranteed rotation spots. Again, how is this not doing "Something". What you should be saying is they didn't make a move you feel is note worthy.

[a700hitter]

Actually my business is baseball. I literally get paid to coach, scout and develop talent through KNBSB here in the Netherlands. If you were in charge of a baseball team, you would get fired.

Are you a GM of team that produces financial reports for it's investors? You are a coach. They typically have a very high business acumen and even higher intellect.

[BSN07]

Are you a GM of team that produces financial reports for it's investors? You are a coach. They typically have a very high business acumen and even higher intellect.

 

No I run the baseball program the generates 100K+ a year in sponsorship from organizations ranging across Europe plus thousands of more euros from ticket sales and national tournaments. I've worked directly with two scouts for the Padres and Mariners concering two players that have developed under my watch(my fingers are crossed, they have an outside chance of being promoted from the under 21 team early in time for WBC '13. Tony Kriesel and Jorin Van Amstel).

 

No it's not MLB. But it's closer to running a baseball organization then you have ever sniffed.

[Bellhorn04]

It is never about doing nothing when your business is deficient in a critical area. You may not be able to fix the problem right away, but doing nothing is not progress. You really have never had a responsible position, have you?

 

One problem that I see here is that you can't necessarily make a direct comparison between major league baseball and other businesses. Major league baseball is an economy unto itself. The human resources available are limited, their performance is uncertain and their price and risk level can be prohibitive.

 

Anibal Sanchez was one almost certain way of upgrading our pitching. But I believe that you yourself said that passing on him was the correct move because he was so overpriced.

[a700hitter]

No I run the baseball program the generates 100K+ a year in sponsorship from organizations ranging across Europe plus thousands of more euros from ticket sales and national tournaments. I've worked directly with two scouts for the Padres and Mariners concering two players that have developed under my watch(my fingers are crossed, they have an outside chance of being promoted from the under 21 team early in time for WBC '13. Tony Kriesel and Jorin Van Amstel).

 

No it's not MLB. But it's closer to running a baseball organization then you have ever sniffed.

Good luck to your boys, coach. Hopefully, one of them will make a name for himself and you'll be able to work for a baseball program that makes more than one of the peanut vendors at Fenway.

[a700hitter]

One problem that I see here is that you can't necessarily make a direct comparison between major league baseball and other businesses. Major league baseball is an economy unto itself. The human resources available are limited, their performance is uncertain and their price and risk level can be prohibitive.

 

Anibal Sanchez was one almost certain way of upgrading our pitching. But I believe that you yourself said that passing on him was the correct move because he was so overpriced.

Bells, look at how many major league pitchers and prospects were traded and or signed by teams this off season. The list is pretty long. To say that there were no opportunities there for the Sox is beyond belief. I didn't expect them to make the number and magnitude of moves made by the Jays, but we almost nothing for today and zero for the future. Why didn't they try to pry away a pitching prospect or 2 for the future? I think the answer lies in Cherington's statements that he believes that our pitching is improved over last year. He thinks that our major league starting pitching is solid right now and he feels no pressure to build it for the future. He said the same things last year, and look how that turned out. He wasted 86% of the money spent this off season on old position players who are not that good. That is not a drop in the bucket, and it makes no sense if people here are telling me that the FO isn't trying to be competitive this year. Napoli, Drew, Gomes and Victorino are not guys that will send fans rushing to the box office. If they are not going to help the team win this year, what is their purpose. I think the FO thinks the pitching will be good and he got these low profile veterans to help him win this year. I don't think he has built a winning team as it currently stands, but he must think they can compete if he ran the payroll up to $170 million.

[a700hitter]

They added a SP in Dempster and added 2 solid BP pieces. They had 4 guys returning with pretty much guaranteed rotation spots. Again, how is this not doing "Something". What you should be saying is they didn't make a move you feel is note worthy.

I have been addressing the deficiency in our starting pitching. What do you think of Dempster? Do you think that he fixes the problem? Weren't there better options?

[Bellhorn04]

I have been addressing the deficiency in our starting pitching. What do you think of Dempster? Do you think that he fixes the problem? Weren't there better options?

 

I think A. Sanchez was a better option, but many people including yourself feel he was prohibitively overpriced.

 

We could go through every option there was, starting at Greinke, and in each case I believe we would find factors that would stop it from being a slam-dunk 'yes, do it'.

[a700hitter]

I think A. Sanchez was a better option, but many people including yourself feel he was prohibitively overpriced.

 

We could go through every option there was, starting at Greinke, and in each case I believe we would find factors that would stop it from being a slam-dunk 'yes, do it'.

I don't believe that I weighed in much on Sanchez. Very few deals are perfect slam dunks. If they are waiting for perfect deals, they will never make a deal. Arguments can and have been made against each of the deals where we signed positional players. There can always be arguments both pro and con made with regard to any acquisition or trade. It's not an excuse to do nothing.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't believe that I weighed in much on Sanchez. Very few deals are perfect slam dunks. If they are waiting for perfect deals, they will never make a deal. Arguments can and have been made against each of the deals where we signed positional players. There can always be arguments both pro and con made with regard to any acquisition or trade. It's not an excuse to do nothing.

 

I totally understand your position. I'm not trying to defend the front office. It may turn out that they completely f***ed up by passing on guys like Haren, McCarthy etc. I try to figure out why they did or didn't do things, for my own satisfaction I guess.

[a700hitter]

I totally understand your position. I'm not trying to defend the front office. It may turn out that they completely f***ed up by passing on guys like Haren, McCarthy etc. I try to figure out why they did or didn't do things, for my own satisfaction I guess.

Me too. I have been trying to make sense of what they have done in the off season. I am having trouble seeing a cohesive plan. I can't tell if they are trying to be competitive this season or if they are looking more with an eye to the future. The payroll is bloated with uninspiring low profile positional acquisitions, but almost nothing was done for the starting pitching currently or for the future. In a prior post, I said that I believe that the explanation of their off season plan is one of three possibilities:

 

The possibilities that I see at this point are: 1. they have not completed their off season plan yet, 2. they were unable to implement their off season plan, or 3. they formulated a poor off season plan.

 

I am hoping that #1 is correct, because 2 and 3 give us little hope for the upcoming season. I don't see any other possibilities, because they have done very little to improve our current starting pitching and nothing to improve our future starting pitching. Starting pitching is this teams biggest need.

 

I would add by way of explaining the third possibility that Cherington has several times said that he thinks the starting pitching is improved, and he said this before they got Dempster. I just don't see how he can believe that with much confidence. It's just my opinion, but others disagree without being specific about what they think the off season plan is.

[Voice of Reason]

Out of curiosity, what moves should Cherington have made to improve the starting pitching in the future that would not have hurt the team longterm by including a prospect like Bogaerts, Bradley or Barnes? I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the premise that the team could have done more to improve the starting pitching. But saying "there were other options" is one thing, actually naming what other routes the team should have taken is another. If you actually name an option, such as signing Greinke or Sanchez to the deals they would have required to sign here, then we could examine the pros and cons of such options.

[a700hitter]

Out of curiosity, what moves should Cherington have made to improve the starting pitching in the future that would not have hurt the team longterm by including a prospect like Bogaerts, Bradley or Barnes? I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the premise that the team could have done more to improve the starting pitching. But saying "there were other options" is one thing, actually naming what other routes the team should have taken is another. If you actually name an option, such as signing Greinke or Sanchez to the deals they would have required to sign here, then we could examine the pros and cons of such options.

Due to high volume, I have instituted a 250 post minimum limit for members before I will consider a reply post. Get back to me with this question when you hit 250 posts.

 

Welcome to TalkSox, but only established members can troll me.

[Voice of Reason]

It's an open question, not directed at any one person in particular. What should the Red Sox have done to improve the starting pitching in the future that wouldn't harm them in the future by trading a top 5 prospect or signing a fringe #1 pitcher to a 5-6 year deal? What options would have been better than what they did? I can see why you might not want to answer that, it's not an easy one.

 

I suppose the Red Sox could have dealt some of their established players for pitching prospects. But I understand why they might want to see what they have in De La Rosa, Webster, Wright and Barnes before giving up someone like Ellsbury or Pedroia. I like that they at least kept a rotation spot open for Doubront.

[a700hitter]

It's an open question, not directed at any one person in particular. What should the Red Sox have done to improve the starting pitching in the future that wouldn't harm them in the future by trading a top 5 prospect or signing a fringe #1 pitcher to a 5-6 year deal? What options would have been better than what they did? I can see why you might not want to answer that, it's not an easy one.

 

I suppose the Red Sox could have dealt some of their established players for pitching prospects. But I understand why they might want to see what they have in De La Rosa, Webster, Wright and Barnes before giving up someone like Ellsbury or Pedroia. I like that they at least kept a rotation spot open for Doubront.

What do you think they should have done?

[Voice of Reason]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's much more they could have done. I don't like that they're paying $178 million for a team that likely won't make the playoffs but rebuilding the starting rotation is going to be a longterm project. At least they didn't give up any draft picks, trade any pitching prospects or take away Doubront's spot in the rotation.

 

That's just my opinion though. If you feel otherwise, I'd love to hear what some of your ideas are for what they could have done differently. I understand why you'd be hesitant to answer that though, it's not an easy one.

[a700hitter]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's much more they could have done. I don't like that they're paying $178 million for a team that likely won't make the playoffs but rebuilding the starting rotation is going to be a longterm project. At least they didn't give up any draft picks, trade any pitching prospects or take away Doubront's spot in the rotation.

 

That's just my opinion though. If you feel otherwise, I'd love to hear what some of your ideas are for what they could have done differently. I understand why you'd be hesitant to answer that though, it's not an easy one.

I wish you had a little more imagination. You'll never be successful as a GM with that kind of defeatist attitude. I was hoping that you had some good ideas to discuss.

[jung]

I could be wrong on this but I think what BC actually said was that he believed there was more improvement in the SP to be had by the pitchers already on the payroll pitching to their potential than in pitchers that he could acquire one way or another this off season.

 

Maybe you are referring to a different BC quote 700. I remember the one I referred to above but can't say that I remember one predating the Dempster deal that has BC saying that the pitching is "already" improved.

[a700hitter]

I could be wrong on this but I think what BC actually said was that he believed there was more improvement in the SP to be had by the pitchers already on the payroll pitching to their potential than in pitchers that he could acquire one way or another this off season.

 

Maybe you are referring to a different BC quote 700. I remember the one I referred to above but can't say that I remember one predating the Dempster deal that has BC saying that the pitching is "already" improved.

Yes, those are the ones that I remember. Those statements concerned me a great deal, but I was hoping that he just was not tipping his hand. Based on his actions, I guess he was being honest. Up to this point in his tenure, I have found Cherries to be very honest. Unfortunately, I think that his assessment is a huge crap shoot that can flame out in an ugly way.

[seabeachfred]

Yeah, I think you don't really read other people's posts or just really struggle with reading comprehension. Every poster on here has said something negative about the FO at one time or another. Maybe you just have a terminal case of hyperbole?

 

I read them carefully enough and know full well that when you do offer criticism it is also loaded with qualifications and rationalizations that end up nothing more than a lame excuse to keep defending the Red Sox front office. As for other posters I read them to and in no way does your "critical analysis" come even close to the stuff written by 700, Palodios, Sox Sport or even iortiz.The only terminal case I can see is that you actually believe you take a tough stance against some of the crap the front office when in fact it full of holes, excuses and rationalizations. But don't let me stop you MVP; go right ahead with your "tough" stance towards the front office. Pretending that have a salubrious effect on a person.

[MANNYHOF24]

I don't believe that I weighed in much on Sanchez. Very few deals are perfect slam dunks. If they are waiting for perfect deals, they will never make a deal. Arguments can and have been made against each of the deals where we signed positional players. There can always be arguments both pro and con made with regard to any acquisition or trade. It's not an excuse to do nothing.

 

Sanchez is a mediocre pitcher with less upside then Lester or Buchholz. They wouldnt wise not to invest Pedro Martinez money over 5 years. I'm sorry I think the best option for 2013 is to hope they hit that upside. It's not unreasonable o think that they will. I just feel like there was no real number 1 starter out there that would have fulfilled your desires.