Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[BSN07]

You keep saying the spent money on other positions. Has it even crossed your mind that they SP they did like out priced themselves, and instead of sitting on the money this year(a700 and others would have had a god damn conniption fit) they spent it on other pieces to help solidify other parts of the roster?

 

I don't know for sure and I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm just looking at it reasonably.

[iortiz]

Did John Lackey improve the pitching staff here? This team needs less mediocre pitchers and more frontline starters. Sanchez is a 3-4. We have enough of those already...

 

C'mon... Sanchez is not f***ing Lackey.

 

Anyway, I suggested an alternative, you didn't like it, fine. what would you do then...

[BSN07]

In my realistic glasses we are a 4th place team in the ALE next year as it is.

So the Yankees are ancient, Baltimore's done absolutely f*** all and is not going 18-1 or whatever in 1 run games and Toronto has won the off season title.*

 

Why do some of you look at the Red Sox and everything is a sure fire miss while everyone else in the division will come up roses?

 

I still take that bet, I say they finish 3rd or above, you think they are a 4-5.

Did John Lackey improve the pitching staff here? This team needs less mediocre pitchers and more frontline starters. Sanchez is a 3-4. We have enough of those already...

 

Exactly, no point in filling the team with mediocre SP when they have that.

[iortiz]

You keep saying the spent money on other positions. Has it even crossed your mind that they SP they did like out priced themselves, and instead of sitting on the money this year(a700 and others would have had a god damn conniption fit) they spent it on other pieces to help solidify other parts of the roster?

 

I don't know for sure and I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm just looking at it reasonably.

 

Again, I would have gone all in pitching... but that's me, and yes... I would have gone after Sanchez and Jackson or Sanchez and Kuroda or traded for Johnson and Buehrle or Sanchez and traded for Garza or whatever, but I would have added 2 arms, but again that's me.

[BSN07]

C'mon... Sanchez is not f***ing Lackey.

 

Anyway, I suggested an alternative, you didn't like it, fine. what would you then...

 

Exactly. Lackey was better and more accomplished at Sanchez's age. Glad to see you finally get it...

[BSN07]

Again, I would have gone all in pitching... but that's me, and yes... I would have gone after Sanchez and Jackson or Sanchez and Kuroda or traded for Johnson and Buehrle or Sanchez and traded for Garza or whatever, but I would have added 2 arms, but again that's me.

 

That would have decimated the farm system and locked the Sox into the LT for the next 3-5 years. This is not MLB the Show, money matters and you actually have to give up something in trades and not just turn the "force trades" on.

[iortiz]

That would have decimated the farm system and locked the Sox into the LT for the next 3-5 years. This is not MLB the Show, money matters and you actually have to give up something in trades and not just turn the "force trades" on.

 

Thing is that you have a crystal ball and saying that a guy like Sanchez would have failed in Boston. Sure, he is a risk. Every player is, but jesus christ, at least try something regarding helping our pitching.

 

BTW Who in the farm is better (and ready) than Snachez?... C'mon this guy cost what it costs since his numbers under his belt. Kids in the farm are just promises and I would treat most of them like trade chips in an organization like the Red Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

BTW Who in the farm is better (and ready) than Snachez?... C'mon this guy cost what it costs since his numbers under his belt. Kids in the farm are just promises and I would treat most of them like trade chips in an organization like the Red Sox.

 

The best possible scenario is to have a lot of cheap young talent. If you keep treating your prospects as trade chips, like Anthony Rizzo, you will never have that scenario. The Red Sox are finally trying to show some patience here.

[BSN07]

Thing is that you have a crystal ball and saying that a guy like Sanchez would have failed in Boston. Sure, he is a risk. Every player is, but jesus christ, at least try something regarding helping our pitching.

 

BTW Who in the farm is better (and ready) than Snachez?... C'mon this guy cost what it costs since his numbers under his belt. Kids in the farm are just promises and I would treat most of them like trade chips in an organization like the Red Sox.

 

They did do something to help the pitching. they added an innings eater and a couple nice pieces to go in the BP, helping shorten the game, thus helping the rotation.

 

I didn't say he would fail. I said he wasn't worth the money he got. And that's the reason I wasn't upset they didn't get him. I don't need a crystal ball to project Sanchez being a #3 in the AL East. Anything higher is pure hope. And for a #3 he was too expensive IMO.

 

Their SP prospects aren't ready yet. That's just fact. Maybe some mid season(De le Rosa, Webster, Wright) maybe some next season(Barnes). But within the next year or two they should start to show up. There would be nowhere for them if they added Sanchez or Ajax for 4+ seasons. I believe the FO feels(although I admit having no possible way of knowing, just guessing from what they have been doing of late) these players will be ready within the next couple years and was unwilling to block them for average over priced guys.

 

BTW it's nice to have a decent conversation with you

[mvp 78]

C'mon... Sanchez is not f***ing Lackey.

 

Anyway, I suggested an alternative, you didn't like it, fine. what would you do then...

 

Trade for an ace. Figure out the rest from there. Without a true #1, this team will always be an "also-ran." No combination of Sanchez, Jackson, Buerhle, Johnson, Dempster, and Kuroda would change that.

[mvp 78]

Thing is that you have a crystal ball and saying that a guy like Sanchez would have failed in Boston. Sure, he is a risk. Every player is, but jesus christ, at least try something regarding helping our pitching.

 

BTW Who in the farm is better (and ready) than Snachez?... C'mon this guy cost what it costs since his numbers under his belt. Kids in the farm are just promises and I would treat most of them like trade chips in an organization like the Red Sox.

 

And yet your crystal ball is saying none of the prospects will be as good as Sanchez (a prospect we dumped btw).

[a700hitter]

This all comes back to our core argument. I don't mind them not winning this season. You do. I'm ok with them taking some time to rebuild/retool the roster for a couple seasons while the next group of talent comes up. Your not. I like the thought of building from within and using $ when need be. You want every dime spent and a name at every position with WS expectations every season. We both love the Red Sox. We just approach it differently.

 

 

 

I also don't think it's outlandish to think Some of the SP will rebound.

You have presumed wrong, so you don't know what the core of the argument. I have said what my expectations and hopes were for 2013 many man times. I do not expect an elite team at all. I was hoping for a somewhat competitive team that would play meaningful games throughout August and hopefully into September. If you are going to presume what I want, get it right or don't put words in my mouth.

 

That being said, the biggest need on this team going into the off season was starting pitching. That is as clear as the nose on your face. Thus far they have chosen to address that issue with the great Ryan Dempster. There isn't a Sox fan on this planet who thinks Dempster will fix our rotation. The real mystery to me is why they would pump up the payroll when they have built a 4th place pitching rotation. The possibilities that I see are 1) they are not finished building their pitching (that's what I am hoping), 2) they like the staff and think everyone will rebound and the team will compete (this is pure folly IMO), or 3) they spent the other money expecting to also improve the pitching, but they couldn't execute that part of the plan.

 

If they went into the off season without the expectation of improving the starting pitching, then they should have saved their money. So, you see you are wrong again. I don't want them to spend every penny. Spending 84% of their money on stopgap position players while spending only 16% on the biggest need is foolish.

 

After asking you twice how you would rebuild the pitching and how long it should take, it is obvious that you have no strategy. We don't have the talent in our system to rebuild a rotation any time soon. You answered with nothing but wrong assumptions and presumptions about my positions on these issues. You basically just spewed insults. In your next lame attempt at empty rhetoric and accusations maybe you could accuse me of wanting to give tax breaks to the wealthy or accuse me of being in bed with big business. From what I can see, it seems that you are taking approach #2-- the staff will all improve in 2013-- the approach that I have called "folly". Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because - wouldn't want to put words in your mouth.

 

I will leave open one slim possibility for all of the starters to improve. I call it the Salty effect. It is possible that he has been a big part of the problem, and that getting rid of him will pay "addition by subtraction" benefits.

[User Name]

The best possible scenario is to have a lot of cheap young talent. If you keep treating your prospects as trade chips, like Anthony Rizzo, you will never have that scenario. The Red Sox are finally trying to show some patience here.

 

A lot of truth right here. People want to have their cake and eat it too, and it doesn't work that way. The red sox won't return to prominence by blocking their young talent with overpriced and long contracts for mediocre or aging talent.

[iortiz]

They did do something to help the pitching. they added an innings eater and a couple nice pieces to go in the BP, helping shorten the game, thus helping the rotation.

 

I didn't say he would fail. I said he wasn't worth the money he got. And that's the reason I wasn't upset they didn't get him. I don't need a crystal ball to project Sanchez being a #3 in the AL East. Anything higher is pure hope. And for a #3 he was too expensive IMO.

 

Their SP prospects aren't ready yet. That's just fact. Maybe some mid season(De le Rosa, Webster, Wright) maybe some next season(Barnes). But within the next year or two they should start to show up. There would be nowhere for them if they added Sanchez or Ajax for 4+ seasons. I believe the FO feels(although I admit having no possible way of knowing, just guessing from what they have been doing of late) these players will be ready within the next couple years and was unwilling to block them for average over priced guys.

 

BTW it's nice to have a decent conversation with you

This goes to MVP too. It is just the way how we see the things. In the end, we all want that this team improves and be better.

 

Hell, I just do not want to be a blank check again.

 

Same about the decent conv. BSN.

[a700hitter]

Trade for an ace. Figure out the rest from there. Without a true #1, this team will always be an "also-ran." No combination of Sanchez, Jackson, Buerhle, Johnson, Dempster, and Kuroda would change that.

Everyone would love for the Sox to get an ace, but teams aren't exactly lining up to have fire sales for their ace pitchers. They are keeping them long term. When Gio was available last off season we didn't land him. Big mistake. He signed a 5 year/$40 million extension. He should kill his agent.

[Palodios]

That being said, the biggest need on this team going into the off season was starting pitching. That is as clear as the nose on your face. Thus far they have chosen to address that issue with the great Ryan Dempster. There isn't a Sox fan on this planet who thinks Dempster will fix our rotation. The real mystery to me is why they would pump up the payroll when they have built a 4th place pitching rotation. The possibilities that I see are 1) they are not finished building their pitching (that's what I am hoping), 2) they like the staff and think everyone will rebound and the team will compete (this is pure folly IMO), or 3) they spent the other money expecting to also improve the pitching, but they couldn't execute that part of the plan..

 

I agree that they needed to do more for their starting pitching... but look at the prices, and the talent. A guy with a 3.70 career ERA set historic contract records. Edwin Jackson, a guy that a dozen teams have moved on from got four years. Liriano got $14 million after two straight years with a 5+ ERA.

 

The rotation is probably going to suck for a year or two. It is what it is. They spent money to make this team atleast be competitive, and I don't know about you, but I'm glad they didn't pocket it.

[iortiz]

You have presumed wrong, so you don't know what the core of the argument. I have said what my expectations and hopes were for 2013 many man times. I do not expect an elite team at all. I was hoping for a somewhat competitive team that would play meaningful games throughout August and hopefully into September. If you are going to presume what I want, get it right or don't put words in my mouth.

 

That being said, the biggest need on this team going into the off season was starting pitching. That is as clear as the nose on your face. Thus far they have chosen to address that issue with the great Ryan Dempster. There isn't a Sox fan on this planet who thinks Dempster will fix our rotation. The real mystery to me is why they would pump up the payroll when they have built a 4th place pitching rotation. The possibilities that I see are 1) they are not finished building their pitching (that's what I am hoping), 2) they like the staff and think everyone will rebound and the team will compete (this is pure folly IMO), or 3) they spent the other money expecting to also improve the pitching, but they couldn't execute that part of the plan.

 

If they went into the off season without the expectation of improving the starting pitching, then they should have saved their money. So, you see you are wrong again. I don't want them to spend every penny. Spending 84% of their money on stopgap position players while spending only 16% on the biggest need is foolish.

 

After asking you twice how you would rebuild the pitching and how long it should take, it is obvious that you have no strategy. We don't have the talent in our system to rebuild a rotation any time soon. You answered with nothing but wrong assumptions and presumptions about my positions on these issues. You basically just spewed insults. In your next lame attempt at empty rhetoric and accusations maybe you could accuse me of wanting to give tax breaks to the wealthy or accuse me of being in bed with big business. From what I can see, it seems that you are taking approach #2-- the staff will all improve in 2013-- the approach that I have called "folly". Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because - wouldn't want to put words in your mouth.

 

I will leave open one slim possibility for all of the starters to improve. I call it the Salty effect. It is possible that he has been a big part of the problem, and that getting rid of him will pay "addition by subtraction" benefits.

 

Hopefully BSN and others do not bother if I agree with this a lot.

 

 

hell, if the pitching was/is the issue, and you are going to spend the money anyway, why in the hell not to address it in your priority #1. Sorry, I just do not get it.

[a700hitter]

The best possible scenario is to have a lot of cheap young talent. If you keep treating your prospects as trade chips, like Anthony Rizzo, you will never have that scenario. The Red Sox are finally trying to show some patience here.

Bells, the problem is that Anthony Rizzo and our current prime youn talent are not pitchers. We can be as patient as we want, but that is not going to make young pitching talent appear in the organization. For several year we have sucked at identifying and signing good young pitching. We got scooped by Cleveland who landed Bauer for Choo (in his walk year). Why not offer them Ells to get Bauer and the Cincy CFer?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Bells, the problem is that Anthony Rizzo and our current prime youn talent are not pitchers. We can be as patient as we want, but that is not going to make young pitching talent appear in the organization. For several year we have sucked at identifying and signing good young pitching. We got scooped by Cleveland who landed Bauer for Choo (in his walk year). Why not offer them Ells to get Bauer and the Cincy CFer?

 

Huh?!? Webster, Barnes, De La Rosa are all young arms that are top 5 prospects in the Sox organization.

 

Barnes and Webster could both crack the top 50 list on BA, and De La Rosa would likely crack the list too if he was eligible.

[a700hitter]

I agree that they needed to do more for their starting pitching... but look at the prices, and the talent. A guy with a 3.70 career ERA set historic contract records. Edwin Jackson, a guy that a dozen teams have moved on from got four years. Liriano got $14 million after two straight years with a 5+ ERA.

 

The rotation is probably going to suck for a year or two. It is what it is. They spent money to make this team atleast be competitive, and I don't know about you, but I'm glad they didn't pocket it.

I think it all flows from the pitching. We had a strong run producing team for about 3/4 of 2012, but the pitching sunk us and then the wheels came off the whole thing. I don't think the offensive acquisitions will be enough to overcome suck ass starting pitching. The strengthened pen will help, but it will wilt from pitching 3 or 4 innings every game.

[a700hitter]

Huh?!? Webster, Barnes, De La Rosa are all young arms that are top 5 prospects in the Sox organization.

 

Barnes and Webster could both crack the top 50 list on BA, and De La Rosa would likely crack the list too if he was eligible.

I'll respectfully disagree with you on our pitching prospects. They are not our best prospects, and they are just not that good yet. Let's see if Barnes can dominate at AA before we start penciling him into the 2014 rotation. Let's see if De La Rosa can hold up over the course of a season as a starter anywhere before we start mentioning him in sentences with Pedro. As for Webster, he's just slightly better than Zach Stewart.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I'll respectfully disagree with you on our pitching prospects. They are not our best prospects, and they are just not that good yet. Let's see if Barnes can dominate at AA before we start penciling him into the 2014 rotation. Let's see if De La Rosa can hold up over the course of a season as a starter anywhere before we start mentioning him in sentences with Pedro. As for Webster, he's just slightly better than Zach Stewart.

 

Your valuation of these prospect is almost the complete opposite than that of almost every talent evaluator that I've read.

[SoxFanForsyth]

By the way, who do you have as our top 5? Mine go Bogaerts - De La Rosa - Bradley / Barnes in either order - Webster

[a700hitter]

Your valuation of these prospect is almost the complete opposite than that of almost every talent evaluator that I've read.

I don't doubt that they are in our top 5, and I think that speaks volumes to the lack of overall talent in our system. SFF, I do follow this stuff, but I acknowledge that you follow the prospects more closely. If your solution to our pitching strategy is to wait 3 years and Barnes, De La Rosa and Webster will be anchoring our rotation, that's fine. That's one strategy, and only time will tell.

[mvp 78]

If anyone cares:

 

@JennyDellNESN: Checked @RedSox site-changed #'s: @Middlebrooks 16, Gomes 5, @dnavs33 29, Iglesias 10, Ciriaco 23, @RyanLavarnway 20, Tazawa 36, Doubront 35

[jung]

The Jays probably took down the biggest pitching haul in the AL this off season with the Marlins deal plus Dickey. But that whole deal hinged on Johnson really. Once the Jays made that deal they felt confident in going after Dickey just like they felt they could add Cabrera from where they were. Johnson could in fact skyrocket to the top of the Jays staff or he could break down again and go nowhere. But I just don't think the Sox are in the same position that the Jays were in. The Mets wanted the frigging farm system for Dickey and the Sox were in no position to handle the package of Reyes/Johnson/Buerlie.

 

The Jays had a very strong position from which to roll the dice on Johnson and Buerlie and they apparently wanted Reyes. So whereas other teams probably looked at Reyes as an albatross in that deal, apparently the Jays coveted him.

 

I really liked the idea of taking a shot at Johnson. Our rotation as currently constituted is all big question marks but I don't think the upside for putting a plus sign in some of those boxes is as high as others think. Heck if the whole dame thing is going to be question marks add another that has monster upside. I really thought to be honest that was the only legit shot the Sox had at making a one year turn on the rotation....as he was the only guy to my way of thinking that was available that you could have brought in here that could potentially turn into a monster. But just about the only real shot the Sox had at him was to pull him out of that deal separately and that just was not going to happen. As I recall they took a shot at Johnson. I don't know specifically what they tried to do but it got shot down pretty quickly as I recall. So I surmise that the Sox showed no interest in the deal that the Marlins made with the Jays.

 

The truth is we could have done the Marlins deal and even Dickey if we really wanted to go down that road. However the Sox would have been right back in the same boat they have been in...depleted farm system...no hope of having a balanced team of cost controlled players and FA's and no room to move at all.....for what....an all in shot at going all the way in 2013????....with what.....the likes of Gomes and the rest of this crowd?????

 

As for where I am thinking the Sox will finish as constituted, I think they are 3rd at best not 3rd at worst. To call this division wide open when everybody in it has more solid starting pitching than we do, either with better top line talent or better upside young guns just is wishful thinking IMO. I think it is wide open for just about all the other contenders in the division but not the Sox. I don't think we finish last but I think virtually every other team in the division will at some point or another during the season actually contend. I think we will likely look like 3rd headed to 4th the whole damn time.

 

While guys like 700 are more direct in their comments about the team's chances, he was one of the several guys that called it dead on before 2012 started mainly because it was so obvious that our pitching was in trouble. We got boatloads of criticism from the anything can happen crowd and the "this team has post season written all over it" crowd. So while 700 and I disagree a good deal it is hard for me to sit by and see his position called wholly pessimistic when he got criticized in exactly the same way last year and had it called dead nuts on!

[Spitball]

If anyone cares:

 

@JennyDellNESN: Checked @RedSox site-changed #'s: @Middlebrooks 16, Gomes 5, @dnavs33 29, Iglesias 10, Ciriaco 23, @RyanLavarnway 20, Tazawa 36, Doubront 35

 

Interesting. I assume Napoli or DeRosa will take #25 since both wore that number last year. I wonder if Drew will take his brother's #7. Gomes has always worn a number in the 30s.

[mvp 78]

Drew is 7, Ross is 3

[seabeachfred]

You do realize that Napoli will play 1B for us right?

 

I could argue every option they have available is a bad one. Whether you want to believe it or not, the best option might be to hold on to the checkbook and let Gomez play.

 

Sorry, I don't realize NAPOLI will play 1B for us--------not at all. Glad you have confidence in the front office getting this done once and for all, but I don't have that confidence in that bungling bunch. Yes, I hope it does get done because I don't like the idea of having a stumblebum like Gomez playing first base for us. Here's to getting Napoli signed and sealed.

[seabeachfred]

and the excuses for not building the team the right way begin. Who was out there? The guys we have should improve. . . yada yada yada. The Stockholm syndrome starts to take form. Everyone went into the off season acknowledging that the pitching needed to be improved. Everyone also said to stay away from Dempster, but as the options dwindle everyone forgets what we needed and starts to believe we have what is needed. Hogwash. This is essentially the same group of starters less Beckett who have been dragging this team to embarrassing levels since September 2011, but we expect that to miraculously change with the acquisition of Dempster? I think people are just kidding themselves.

 

Some people in all walks of life like to fool themselves about things until it hits them in the face. Their take on this is that why worry and just be happy until the building finally falls on them. At least they were assured of good things by keeping up a brave front.

 

Remember, falling off a 30 story building can be exhilirating at hell, but its when the body meets up with the ground that reality sets in----way to late though. Some of us know what's going on Ted. Pollyannism will never take over this board.