Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[jung]

I cannot say that I thought the Sox could solve the SP problem in one off season. They have truly botched a number of things in my view but I am not convinced that this is one of them.

 

However this is also why I thought they should take a different path with the whole team this year.

 

Whatever....they are going to do what they are going to do. Maybe the team reveals itself early enough for the Sox to give the younger guys more playing time and more ML experience and those of us more interested in that may get what we want after all. Not saying that 700 or anybody else is making the same case I have been making about the team generally. Not trying to put words in anyones mouth.

[a700hitter]

I'm not making excuses for anybody. There wasn't anyone on the market I felt gave them what they needed at the prices they were going for. That's it. I'm not apologizing or making excuses for the FO just because the way I view things is similar. And I'm not blaming them for not getting what wasn't actually there. If that's making excuses for them, then that's a fairly warped view at things.

 

 

BTW I'm don't like or dislike the FO. I'm pretty much in the middle, they have done nothing to swing me either way.

At the beginning of the off season, no one thought that the Marlins would move both Josh Johnson and Buerhle and that the Mets would move RA Dickey after winning the CY Young. The Toronto GM made things happen. Our guy didn't make things happen. Assuming that pitchers weren't there is an excuse. Check the transactions wire. Plenty of pitchers were available and plenty changed uniforms by FA and trade. Saying no one was available completely belies the facts.

[BSN07]

I cannot say that I thought the Sox could solve the SP problem in one off season. They have truly botched a number of things in my view but I am not convinced that this is one of them.

 

However this is also why I thought they should take a different path with the whole team this year.

 

Whatever....they are going to do what they are going to do. Maybe the team reveals itself early enough for the Sox to give the younger guys more playing time and more ML experience and those of us more interested in that may get what we want after all. Not saying that 700 or anybody else is making the same case I have been making about the team generally. Not trying to put words in anyones mouth.

 

My thought it they have a decent team now and if things break right they could be pretty good. No one is a runaway favorite in the division.

 

If things don't break right they should have plenty of sought after piece at the TDL that could completely revamp the roster and farm system.

[Lucienbel]

My thought it they have a decent team now and if things break right they could be pretty good. No one is a runaway favorite in the division.

 

If things don't break right they should have plenty of sought after piece at the TDL that could completely revamp the roster and farm system.

 

I'll also agree. It seems like that if this team has things go right, they could end up surprising some people. Even if those players we did pick up don't get traded at the deadline, we're not particularly tied down to them.

[BSN07]

At the beginning of the off season, no one thought that the Marlins would move both Josh Johnson and Buerhle and that the Mets would move RA Dickey after winning the CY Young. The Toronto GM made things happen. Our guy didn't make things happen. Assuming that pitchers weren't there is an excuse. Check the transactions wire. Plenty of pitchers were available and plenty changed uniforms by FA and trade. Saying no one was available completely belies the facts.

 

I don't particularly like any of those guys. I think that's probably why we are disagreeing. i don't see those as guys worth moving pieces for. Dickey is a 38 year old knuckler that has success in the NL and in a pitchers haven. Johnson is Beckett 2.0 and Buerhle looked like a a soft tossing LHP last season. He will be durable, but he's not some top of the line SP.

[a700hitter]

I don't particularly like any of those guys. I think that's probably why we are disagreeing. i don't see those as guys worth moving pieces for. Dickey is a 38 year old knuckler that has success in the NL and in a pitchers haven. Johnson is Beckett 2.0 and Buerhle looked like a a soft tossing LHP last season. He will be durable, but he's not some top of the line SP.

Do you like Dempster better than Dickey, Buehrle or Josh Johnson? What about the numerous other pitchers who have been traded or signed? Dempster tops your list?

[iortiz]

I don't particularly like any of those guys. I think that's probably why we are disagreeing. i don't see those as guys worth moving pieces for. Dickey is a 38 year old knuckler that has success in the NL and in a pitchers haven. Johnson is Beckett 2.0 and Buerhle looked like a a soft tossing LHP last season. He will be durable, but he's not some top of the line SP.

 

You don't like Buehrle? Johnson? Sanchez? Jackson? Kuroda? Etc...

 

Man, I don't know what you are realistically expecting or waiting for. Hammels, Felix, Cain, Kershaw, etc ain't gonna happen.

[BSN07]

Do you like Dempster better than Dickey, Buehrle or Josh Johnson? What about the numerous other pitchers who have been traded or signed? Dempster tops your list?

Dempster isn't on my list. I was against the signing when it was rumored to be 3 years. Fact is there is no list this off season, they guys I like or liked were not available for obvious reasons or were too expensive.

You don't like Buehrle? Johnson? Sanchez? Jackson? Kuroda? Etc...

 

Man, I don't know what you are realistically expecting or waiting for. Hammels, Felix, Cain, Kershaw, etc ain't gonna happen.

 

Buehrle no, I explained why.

 

Johnson is Beckett 2.0, do we want to go through that again? When he's good he will be good, when he's bad it will be ugly.

 

Sanchez, too expensive. He got close to Beckett and Lackey money with an injury history and a far less proven track record, regular season and post season.

 

Jackson? For 4/52m? Are you serious? The guys couldn't get a multi year deal last season, settled for a pillow contract and then pitched fairly average(worse then his prior season) and got 4 years? That's insane.

 

Kuroda only gave the Yankees the chance to sign him. He had no interest in going anywhere else in the MLB and thought about returning to Japan.

 

I don't dislike these guys, they have talent, but the price it would have cost to acquire them via free agency or trade outweighed that.

 

Fact is I don't like Dempster much either, but they needed someone. And he came on a short term deal.

[a700hitter]

My thought it they have a decent team now and if things break right they could be pretty good. No one is a runaway favorite in the division.

 

If things don't break right they should have plenty of sought after piece at the TDL that could completely revamp the roster and farm system.

They have a team with no first baseman (until Napoli signs), 3 catchers, only 2 real OFers (Gomes is a hack with the glove), and 5 starting pitchers (all with question marks). This is not a strong team as constituted. The pitching is pretty much the same as last year and September 2011. Expecting a markedly improved result from this group does not have a high probability IMO.

 

If things don't break right, there will be little market for under performing pieces.

[a700hitter]

Dempster isn't on my list. I was against the signing when it was rumored to be 3 years. Fact is there is no list this off season, they guys I like or liked were not available for obvious reasons or were too expensive.

 

 

Buehrle no, I explained why.

 

Johnson is Beckett 2.0, do we want to go through that again? When he's good he will be good, when he's bad it will be ugly.

 

Sanchez, too expensive. He got close to Beckett and Lackey money with an injury history and a far less proven track record, regular season and post season.

 

Jackson? For 4/52m? Are you serious? The guys couldn't get a multi year deal last season, settled for a pillow contract and then pitched fairly average(worse then his prior season) and got 4 years? That's insane.

 

Kuroda only gave the Yankees the chance to sign him. He had no interest in going anywhere else in the MLB and thought about returning to Japan.

 

I don't dislike these guys, they have talent, but the price it would have cost to acquire them via free agency or trade outweighed that.

 

Fact is I don't like Dempster much either, but they needed someone. And he came on a short term deal.

So, who do you like and when will they become available? In short, how would you go about rebuilding our pitching and in what time horizon?

 

Finally, if there were indeed no pitchers available to improve the biggest weakness on the team, why in the world would they spend $170 million on payroll for a team that really has very little chance of success.

[iortiz]

Dempster isn't on my list. I was against the signing when it was rumored to be 3 years. Fact is there is no list this off season, they guys I like or liked were not available for obvious reasons or were too expensive.

 

 

Buehrle no, I explained why.

 

Johnson is Beckett 2.0, do we want to go through that again? When he's good he will be good, when he's bad it will be ugly.

 

Sanchez, too expensive. He got close to Beckett and Lackey money with an injury history and a far less proven track record, regular season and post season.

 

Jackson? For 4/52m? Are you serious? The guys couldn't get a multi year deal last season, settled for a pillow contract and then pitched fairly average(worse then his prior season) and got 4 years? That's insane.

 

Kuroda only gave the Yankees the chance to sign him. He had no interest in going anywhere else in the MLB and thought about returning to Japan.

 

I don't dislike these guys, they have talent, but the price it would have cost to acquire them via free agency or trade outweighed that.

 

Fact is I don't like Dempster much either, but they needed someone. And he came on a short term deal.

 

That is the market and do not expect any different toward 2014 and further considering talent vs cost vs length of the contracts. It is what it is. It's a take it or remain the same piece of crap we've been in pitching.

 

Hell, I do not know you but I see more question marks this year regarding 2013 pitching than 2012 rotation.

[BSN07]

You don't just sign players to sign players. They have to be smart business choices as it effects how you can sustain a team long term. Sometimes that means waiting.

 

Again why is it so hard to believe these guys can bounce back to career norms? Does wearing "Red Sox" on your jersey make that feat impossible?

[BSN07]

They have a team with no first baseman (until Napoli signs), 3 catchers, only 2 real OFers (Gomes is a hack with the glove), and 5 starting pitchers (all with question marks). This is not a strong team as constituted. The pitching is pretty much the same as last year and September 2011. Expecting a markedly improved result from this group does not have a high probability IMO.

 

If things don't break right, there will be little market for under performing pieces.

 

They team is not a final product. What they currently have is not bad, especially in a wide open division. And the team you start the season is usually 99% never the team you end with.

 

Of course the team is not strong in your opinion. Your a serial negative nancy. It's just your nature. The team could be full of HOF's and you's complain about the bat boy not being quick enough to react after a broken bat. There is no scenario were you will be happy. You can't be, you wouldn't have anything to say or write about, and that probably violates some law of nature and the universe would cave in upon itself.

[BSN07]

That is the market and do not expect any different toward 2014 and further considering talent vs cost vs length of the contracts. It is what it is. It's a take it or remain the same piece of crap we've been in pitching.

 

Hell, I do not know you but I see more question marks this year regarding 2013 pitching than 2012 rotation.

 

Then I'd rather they take the development route or possibly trade(for a true front line SP) and stay away from giving guys like Jackson, Sanchez etc etc long term deals. The only instance I'm ok with those type of moves, if it's the final piece on a Championship caliber team(Detroit is that, so them paying that much for Sanchez that much is ok).

 

There's no reason to overpay for mid rotation SP when you have plenty of that and need front end.

[iortiz]

Smart moves? Like who? Or what?. Wait? How much more? finish last place again?.

 

Do not take me wrong, I understand what you're saying BSN but IMO it is time to at least try something that department. Last year we should have, We didn't. This year we are even worst in that department and the panorama is not encouraging at all. Man, We haven't won a PO game in 5 years or so...

[iortiz]

Then I'd rather they take the development route or possibly trade(for a true front line SP) and stay away from giving guys like Jackson, Sanchez etc etc long term deals. The only instance I'm ok with those type of moves, if it's the final piece on a Championship caliber team(Detroit is that, so them paying that much for Sanchez that much is ok).

 

There's no reason to overpay for mid rotation SP when you have plenty of that and need front end.

 

Ufff BSN, this is a looooong shot and certainly we are not TB.

[mvp 78]

That is the market and do not expect any different toward 2014 and further considering talent vs cost vs length of the contracts. It is what it is. It's a take it or remain the same piece of crap we've been in pitching.

This is basically the thought process that gave us such great contracts as Lackey, Crawford, Cameron, etc. Signing some shmo just for the sake of spending money is not how responsible teams build their organization.

[mvp 78]

Ufff BSN, this is a looooong shot and certainly we are not TB.

 

Why couldn't they be?

[BSN07]

Ufff BSN, this is a looooong shot and certainly we are not TB.

 

Sorry I forgot TB holds a monopoly on developing pitching, how stupid of me.

[a700hitter]

They team is not a final product. What they currently have is not bad, especially in a wide open division. And the team you start the season is usually 99% never the team you end with.

 

Of course the team is not strong in your opinion. Your a serial negative nancy. It's just your nature. The team could be full of HOF's and you's complain about the bat boy not being quick enough to react after a broken bat. There is no scenario were you will be happy. You can't be, you wouldn't have anything to say or write about, and that probably violates some law of nature and the universe would cave in upon itself.

Of course, we are all hoping that the team is not a finished product, because as it stands, the best thing you could say about our starting pitching is that it is too thin with many question marks. Pitching with so many question marks usually proves to be bad pitching at the end of the day. As for the "serial negative Nancy" stuff, give me a break. There was a consensus on the board by the FO ballwashers and the Negative Nancys at the beginning of the off season that the team need to improve its starting pitching first and foremost. Everyone agreed that if that didn't happen that the FO hadn't done its job.

 

Now, as hope of improvement fades, the Stockholm Syndrome takes hold and people circle the wagons and make excuses for the FO. It happened last year, and history repeats itself. We are already seeing ridiculously unrealistic projections of the our starters performance. Without further additions to our starting pitching after January 1st, this staff is essentially the same staff that led this team to the basement. IMO, it will lead us to the bottom again unless everything breaks right.

[a700hitter]

Of course the team is not strong in your opinion. Your a serial negative nancy. It's just your nature. The team could be full of HOF's and you's complain about the bat boy not being quick enough to react after a broken bat. There is no scenario were you will be happy. You can't be, you wouldn't have anything to say or write about, and that probably violates some law of nature and the universe would cave in upon itself.

^ This is all ridiculous. If you can't back up your arguments, just say nothing. It's hard to back up some opinions, but this stuff ^ is garbage.

[a700hitter]

Then I'd rather they take the development route or possibly trade(for a true front line SP) and stay away from giving guys like Jackson, Sanchez etc etc long term deals. The only instance I'm ok with those type of moves, if it's the final piece on a Championship caliber team(Detroit is that, so them paying that much for Sanchez that much is ok).

 

There's no reason to overpay for mid rotation SP when you have plenty of that and need front end.

I'll take a shot at asking again. So, who do you like and when will they become available? In short, how would you go about rebuilding our pitching and in what time horizon?

[iortiz]

Sorry I forgot TB holds a monopoly on developing pitching, how stupid of me.

 

Sorry, I forgot we already have 3 King Felix in our farm just ready to make the majors.

[iortiz]

This is basically the thought process that gave us such great contracts as Lackey, Crawford, Cameron, etc. Signing some shmo just for the sake of spending money is not how responsible teams build their organization.

 

I'm not talking 7yr/150 MUSD contracts or so...

[BSN07]

I'll take a shot at asking again. So, who do you like and when will they become available? In short, how would you go about rebuilding our pitching and in what time horizon?

 

I don't know who is or isn't available. I'm not plugged in. I just now that it's an ever changing landscape and what's available today might not be what's available in June-July when teams start selling(always happens) or even into next off season.

 

Everything I read has Price being moved as he's getting more expensive and approaching FA. A trade is unlikely, but him signing an extension with the team that does trade for him might not be a given. He hits the market and he will break CC's deal. Timmy is also is available after the year. Those are a couple "names" I can think off the top of my head.

 

What would I do? Probably close to what they did. I would have went for Marcum instead of Dempster. But given Marcum has some injury issues and Dempster seems to be able to add up the innings every year, I can see why they went with him instead. I would have strengthen the BP in order to shorten games as the SP options were not great, something they have done. I'd still like to see them add Jurrjens for some depth.

 

This all comes back to our core argument. I don't mind them not winning this season. You do. I'm ok with them taking some time to rebuild/retool the roster for a couple seasons while the next group of talent comes up. Your not. I like the thought of building from within and using $ when need be. You want every dime spent and a name at every position with WS expectations every season. We both love the Red Sox. We just approach it differently.

 

 

 

I also don't think it's outlandish to think Some of the SP will rebound.

[mvp 78]

I'm not talking 7yr/150 MUSD contracts or so...

 

Doesn't matter. Throwing away money on 4 year contracts is just as bad.

[iortiz]

Doesn't matter. Throwing away money on 4 year contracts is just as bad.

 

At least you improve your pitching. Look at our current payroll, pretty much like last year, and what you got? a team which is projected to finish in the bottom of the ALE. Next year expect the same if you go with that mentality –Mediocre and overpaid short contracts at positions that are not even the main priority and ending up with a high payroll... again.

[BSN07]

At least you improve your pitching. Look at our current payroll, pretty much like last year, and what you got? a team which is projected to finish in the bottom of the ALE. Next year expect the same if you go with that mentality –Mediocre and overpaid short contracts at positions that are not even the main priority and ending up with a high payroll... again.

 

You think this is a last place team? I'll take the over on that.

[iortiz]

You think this is a last place team? I'll take the over on that.

 

In my realistic glasses we are a 4th place team in the ALE next year as it is.

[mvp 78]

At least you improve your pitching. Look at our current payroll, pretty much like last year, and what you got? a team which is projected to finish in the bottom of the ALE. Next year expect the same if you go with that mentality –Mediocre and overpaid short contracts at positions that are not even the main priority and ending up with a high payroll... again.

 

Did John Lackey improve the pitching staff here? This team needs less mediocre pitchers and more frontline starters. Sanchez is a 3-4. We have enough of those already...