Red Sox 2012 Spring Training Thread.

[jung]

If a guy is a right handed hitter it is hard for the Sox not to think about him in terms of that left field wall and how many many many times have we heard about the left hand hitter that can "go the other way" and tattoo the left field wall.

 

In fact I cannot think of a left handed hitter of any import that has come into Fenway without eventually being subjected to some level of scrutiny relative to the left field wall. Every single hitter that has come into Fenway for what is now decades eventually if not immediately is judged against that left field wall.

 

Ultimately there must be some effect on the organization in total because we never end up with plus defenders unless they can also hit. Their plus defense is regularly ignored and is often an afterthought even when it comes to plus defensive positions like SS.

 

Having been a Sox fan for a long time now, I think this is one of the major flies in the ointment as we have rarely had true plus defenders even in the classic plus defender positions. If we get them, they are kept around for a year.....maybe.... and sent packing unless they can hit.

 

So to me it will be very interesting to see what happens to Iggy for a career as he is not in the classic mold of players that stick with the Sox.

[Elktonnick]

jung' date=' I'm not sure the Sox organization is enamored with the left field wall. As has been noted, they have drafted a lot of left-handed hitters, and their big acquisitions last year were both lefty hitters.[/quote']

 

I don't mean to be rude but that is the most idiotic statement I have ever heard from a supposedly knowledgeable Red Sox fan. Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker, Ted Williams Fred Lynn, Mo Vaughn, Carl Yaz, Mike Greenwell, David Ortiz Adrian Gonzalez Wade Boggs etc. were all left handed. A-Gon was signed exactly because he could pepper the left field wall. The wall has been there for a hunderd years and the Red Sox have always sought left handed power.

[seabeachfred]

Cafardo this morning seems to be bending a bit--maybe after a little talk with his boss. He now says Aviles has had a good spring--no mention of Iglesias. And he has climbed on board to Bard starting. Actually, most of the wavering about Bard has been generated by the media. I don't think the management has changed their view one bit about him starting. I do think bringing him in the 8th inning that one appearance was ill-conceived--a mistake by V.

 

The spin in the Globe, except for Cafardo, has been Aviles for his hitting and "holding his own" at SS.

And, of course, how dreadfully poor a hitter Iglesias is. No mention of the fact, with their questionable pitching and left side infield defense, they need Iglesias' range more than they need Aviles' bat. Much more.

 

Lavarnway? No mention. The Red Sox have had a habit in recent years of leaving Florida without their best team-- thanks to their undying loyalties to a few over-the-hill veterans.

They have managed to break that cord, but you still have to wonder if there are enough opportunities being afforded for young players on this team.

 

They broke that cord Sox Sport but still need to smash it once and for all and go with their best players. From what I've seen on the screen, Salty doesn't look any better behind the plate than Lavarnway does and he sure as hell can't carry his jock as far as hitting is concerned. He is one player we must not waste or misuse. His uptake is tremendous and I really am convinced he is the next Mie Piazza. This loyalty s*** must stop once and for all. If Ryan is one of the best 25 he should be going to Boston, and frankly, I rarely believe the crap handed down to the fans by the front office telling us who showing leadership and who looks like they're coming on strong. I go by what my eyes see and not what someone tries to tell me from afar.

[jung]

I think the problem with bringing Lavarnway north is that will not let him catch here this year. They are not going to reverse the plan at this point. Lavarnway needs to catch more and he won't get to to that unless he goes to Pawtucket.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't mean to be rude but that is the most idiotic statement I have ever heard from a supposedly knowledgeable Red Sox fan. Babe Ruth' date=' Tris Speaker, Ted Williams Fred Lynn, Mo Vaughn, Carl Yaz, Mike Greenwell, David Ortiz Adrian Gonzalez Wade Boggs etc. were all left handed. A-Gon was signed exactly because he could pepper the left field wall. The wall has been there for a hunderd years and the Red Sox have always sought left handed power.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that was totally rude. I know all about how lefthanded power hitters can pepper the wall. You could have made your point without being a pompous jerk.

[Bellhorn04]

Did the Red Sox prefer Crawford to Werth because they thought Crawford would hit more balls off and over the wall than Werth?

[mvp 78]

Yeah' date=' that was totally rude. I know all about how lefthanded power hitters can pepper the wall. You could have made your point without being a pompous jerk.[/quote']

 

Williams was a dead pull hitter who refused to hit the opposite way. All the modern players mentionned learned to use the wall. I'm not entirely sure what EN's point was though.

[jung]

I guess somebody walked Iggy today for the Phillies. Sure doing him a favor to walk him. Iggy had three at bats today, fielders choice, single and a walk.

 

Iggy nailed somebody at home with a relay throw from the outfield.

 

Lester was apparently very good today.

[Elktonnick]

Yeah' date=' that was totally rude. I know all about how lefthanded power hitters can pepper the wall. You could have made your point without being a pompous jerk.[/quote']

 

That was an inane comment which demonstrated a total lack of understanding of Red Sox history. I was criticizing the comment not the person unlike your retort. I am sorry you can not tell the difference. Actually I paid you a compliment since I found it incredible that any knowledgeable Red Sox fan would make such an outrageous comment. I assumed you are a knowledgeable Red Sox fan. I apologize that you were offended.

[Bellhorn04]

That was an inane comment which demonstrated a total lack of understanding of Red Sox history. I was criticizing the comment not the person unlike your retort. I am sorry you can not tell the difference. Actually I paid you a compliment since I found it incredible that any knowledgeable Red Sox fan would make such an outrageous comment. I assumed you are a knowledgeable Red Sox fan. I apologize that you were offended.

 

Hey, that sounds exactly like a page out of Pumpsie Green's book: 'You shouldn't take it personally when I refer to your comments as idiotic, inane and demonstrating a complete lack of understanding.'

 

The issue I was trying to address, which I thought was somewhat interesting, was jung's statement that the Red Sox organization is still very enamored of utilizing the left field wall. I will concede that my reference to all the acquisitions of lefthanded hitters was a little sloppy/hasty. However, the point about taking Crawford over Werth still stands. Werth was a guy who seemed tailor-made to hit balls over the Monster but they went for Crawford instead.

 

With regard to the history of the team, yes, there have been a lot of lefthanded hitters who have used the wall to their advantage, especially for doubles. There have also been a lot of righthanded power hitters who have been able to utilize it for home runs. Fenway has always been a great hitter's park period.

 

Again, the issue I was interested in was whether the Red Sox organization continues to be fixated on building their team around utilizing the wall.

[Elktonnick]

Williams was a dead pull hitter who refused to hit the opposite way. All the modern players mentionned learned to use the wall. I'm not entirely sure what EN's point was though.

 

Why was A-Gon signed? Because his swing favored using the wall among other things. Other than that If you check Red Sox history the majority of Red Sox great hitters were left handed. The Red Sox have been signing left handed hitters since the park was built. It is not something new with this ownership.

 

What you said about Ted refusing to hit the opposite field while true is a bit over stated. He also said you can't tearn to pull until you learn to go the other way. The reason he didn't go the other way is he didn't need to. If he had, as Cobb and Hornsby advised him to, he'd probably hit 400 more than once. Ted was the most stubborn man. He didn't go the other way because he didn't want to not because he couldfn't, unlike some of today's hitters.

I saw Williams play countless times. You have never seen his equal.

[Spudboy]

I don't know for a fact that he will not climb to 250 in the majors but the Sox stopped grooming him to improve his hitting substantially long before V got here.

 

The point is that they should not wait for him to improve his hitting when that is not how he is going to earn his keep anyway and they need him now.

 

If they really wanted him to improve his hitting they would have left him in AA where the opposing pitchers are generally developing apace, mainly developing their secondary pitches. The Sox decided not to do that and as a result exposed him to the possibility that he would never really hit anything because he is has never seen anything he can hit! He has not hit in AAA. What a surprise....what a shock!

 

I think based on performance, expectation and the road the Sox have taken him down, Iggy can climb above the Mendoza line and can likely even stay there for a career if he is handled properly. He does have decent straight line speed and should be able to leg out some infield hits and lay down a bunt for a hit on occasion.

 

I also think they should bring him up now because V is one of the few guys in the Sox organization that knows how to appreciate him and help him improve. While I am not the biggest V fan in the world, V might be the one guy that can actually help Iggy continue to develop as a major league SS. He is one of the few guys in the Sox organization that is not enamored with that damn left field wall and that knows how to use a plus defensive SS. It just so happens that V is also our ML Manager.

 

 

Excellent post Good Sir.

 

I can understand what you are saying. Everything makes sense.

 

Except we all are forgetting two things.

 

The talent evaluators / Sox management moved him along for real reasons. I suspect they saw that his development would be forestalled in AA but who among us will ever really know?

 

 

He was injured and the further protracted his development at the plate.

 

Anyone can see he is special with the glove. From what I have READ and from what I HAVE SEEN, this kid works really f***ing hard from everything like learning English to swinging the bat. I too think he deserves and belongs on the 25 man roster and possibly as the starting SS.

[Elktonnick]

Hey, that sounds exactly like a page out of Pumpsie Green's book: 'You shouldn't take it personally when I refer to your comments as idiotic, inane and demonstrating a complete lack of understanding.'

 

The issue I was trying to address, which I thought was somewhat interesting, was jung's statement that the Red Sox organization is still very enamored of utilizing the left field wall. I will concede that my reference to all the acquisitions of lefthanded hitters was a little sloppy/hasty. However, the point about taking Crawford over Werth still stands. Werth was a guy who seemed tailor-made to hit balls over the Monster but they went for Crawford instead.

 

With regard to the history of the team, yes, there have been a lot of lefthanded hitters who have used the wall to their advantage, especially for doubles. There have also been a lot of righthanded power hitters who have been able to utilize it for home runs. Fenway has always been a great hitter's park period.

 

Again, the issue I was interested in was whether the Red Sox organization continues to be fixated on building their team around utilizing the wall.

 

If you had explained it that way I wouldn't have made my overheated comment. I agree with you in the sense that with the advent of Sabermetrics, I think they are fixated on OBP and doubles. In a sense, they really don't want Ellsbury swinging for the fences and hitting home runs. Fenway isn't the homer dome it used to be. IMO Raising the pressbox changed the wind dynamics. So the wind blowing out doesn't have the same effect as it had years ago although I haven't checked the data.

[jung]

I think it will be interesting over the years to see how the newly designed Fenway does actually effect hitters when combined with the end of the steroid era.

 

I even wonder if Baseball et al' has been caught a little off guard by the early results in the post steroid era. I am not really sure Baseball was ready to see how far the power numbers appear to be falling both from the perspective of what it means for the numbers generated during the steroid era and what it means for the popularity of baseball after it.

 

Baseball created all kinds of ways to help improve offensive numbers for a good many years figuring that it would help promote baseball to have it be more of an offensive showcase starting with lowering the pitchers mound. I think baseball purists were happy to leave it as it was but there did not appear to be enough purists to fill ballparks and advance TV ratings to satisfaction.

 

While I do not expect Baseball to reverse its stance on steroids I wonder if Baseball will renew its efforts to improve offensive numbers in the post steroid era. I can't imagine that they would mess with the mound anymore although.....what do I know! Maybe Baseball kills two birds with one stone and convinces the NL to adopt the DL for one. Enforcing something like a more hitter friendly strike zone would seem impossible, at least I would think so. Is there anything more independently minded than the umpire in his role when he is behind the catcher?

 

Anyway I did not think we would see the power numbers effected as quickly and as much as they appear to be and at least based on comments I see, I am not sure anybody was prepared to see such a big difference. It looks to me like we are going back to a time when 35 or maybe 40 is truly a big number for HR's and when you think about where we were going in that regard, that is a big change.

[SCM33]

This season has the makings of a disaster.....

 

Bobby Valentine has a short term window.

 

Ben Cherington has a long term window.

 

BV wants Iglesias. BC wants Iglesias in the minors. BV wants Bard in the pen. BC wants Bard to develop in the rotation despite the growing pains. BV prefers Lavarnway over Shoppach. BC wants Shoppach on the roster and Lavarnway in the minors.

 

These two cant agree on anything, shocker....considering BC wanted nothing to do with Valentine.

 

The greatest factor is that both appear to be committed to winning and regardless of their agendas and timeframes, both have that ultimate goal.

 

The problem is, that BC cannot take the baseball decisions away from his manager. If BC starts making decisions about lineups, pitching rotations and personnel desipite BV's voiced opinions....then the players will see that BV essentially has zero authority and will drive him out of town.....just like they did with Tito.

 

I hope it works out for the best, but the bombs are planted for demolition.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lucchino got Valentine to win now. Valentine thinks the kids are ready as is, Cherington thinks they might be better served in the long run by being in the minors. Valentine cements himself as a winner if he takes the sox to the title. Cherington does the same, but all will be forgotten in 5 yrs if the sox win in 2012 and then dont find a solution at SS or catcher long term because they messed with Lavarnway and Iglesias. He'll be Theo Jr, even with a title. Valentine will be long gone by then

[iortiz]

This season has the makings of a disaster.....

 

Bobby Valentine has a short term window.

 

Ben Cherington has a long term window.

 

BV wants Iglesias. BC wants Iglesias in the minors. BV wants Bard in the pen. BC wants Bard to develop in the rotation despite the growing pains. BV prefers Lavarnway over Shoppach. BC wants Shoppach on the roster and Lavarnway in the minors.

 

These two cant agree on anything, shocker....considering BC wanted nothing to do with Valentine.

 

The greatest factor is that both appear to be committed to winning and regardless of their agendas and timeframes, both have that ultimate goal.

 

The problem is, that BC cannot take the baseball decisions away from his manager. If BC starts making decisions about lineups, pitching rotations and personnel desipite BV's voiced opinions....then the players will see that BV essentially has zero authority and will drive him out of town.....just like they did with Tito.

 

I hope it works out for the best, but the bombs are planted for demolition.

Well, if this is true, I'm with BV given the situation. After watching Bard this ST, He doesn't "deserve" the 4th spot. Doubront does. At very best he could compete for the 5th, but I prefer him as the setup guy where he is arguably the best in the game. I'd like to see Lavarnway sharing the C and DH position in a backup role. My guess is that Youk will not play more than 120 games at 3B, so....Aviles will likely help him with the load and Punto/Iggy could help at SS.

 

So... I'm agree with V if you ask me.

[SoxSport]

Amazing how that young front office has appeared stodgy at times. Unwilling to move forward and take chances with young players. Francona pretty much towed the line in this respect--always staying with declining veterans too long. Valentine seems the opposite. Keep in mind that Valentine is older and has a more varied managing experience than Francona had. He also has to turn this team around quickly, and get its performance in line with expectations.

[Elktonnick]

Amazing how that young front office has appeared stodgy at times. Unwilling to move forward and take chances with young players. Francona pretty much towed the line in this respect--always staying with declining veterans too long. Valentine seems the opposite. Keep in mind that Valentine is older and has a more varied managing experience than Francona had. He also has to turn this team around quickly' date=' and get its performance in line with expectations.[/quote']

 

For all the raps against Valentine, the one thing everyone agrees with is that he is a superb evaluator of talent. While I agree with BV on Iggy, I'll concede that his spending two to three months in AAA won't doom the Red Sox chances to win this year, unless Youk is unable to play. Lavarnway is another matter, however. The more I think about it . It makes no sense not to bring up Lavarnway now. Here is the reason why. He is a better hitter right now than either Shoppach or Salty. And quite frankly he is no worse a defensive catcher right now than Salty was at this point last year. The difference in defensive skills do not justify his remaining in Pawtucket IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

Iglesias was optioned. Aviles is your starting SS

[jung]

Well now starts the Iggy watch. It will be interesting to see how long and under what circumstances Iggy will come up this year. I cannot in a million years believe it will be how well Iggy hits in Pawtucket.

 

He will likely not get enough swings in Pawtucket to make a difference unless he stays down there all the way up to the late season call ups and even then some sort of major improvement on his part is questionable to me.

 

It is just the wrong move for the Sox in my view. If he comes up in June then that is two lost months.

 

So we end up with a utility infielder as a SS because he can hit. On top of that, in Aviles you actually have a very versatile player that can be plugged into a number of positions for a few games and do that job very well. Aviles at SS is a guy you would tolerate there for a few games. Having him be the everyday SS is so Red Sox.

 

While it may not be immediately evident once the season starts how much of a difference Iggy will make, I would be willing to bet that the lack of ability to plug Aviles into so many positions will become evident very quickly. We are one infield injury from seeing Aviles go to third or or maybe second and then we will have Punto at SS. There is a lineup that will scare you.

 

How much of a total lineup difference do you think we will have when Punto is playing SS and Aviles is either at 3rd or 2nd as opposed to having Iggy at SS with Aviles getting plugged into 2nd or 3rd? How many games do you think Aviles could be plugged into 2nd or 3rd or outfield for that matter due to injury?

 

All we heard about is what a great offense the Sox have and in the end it comes down to having to have Mike Aviles in the line up when we spent $14M to keep Ortiz in the line up. An offense that must take Aviles at SS does not sound like a great offense to me.

 

I think the Iggy situation is an unwillingness of the FO to yield on their "plan" combined with to much focus on hitting even for a position like SS. With the historical backdrop of the way the Sox have handled the SS position over the years, I am really concerned that Iggy will never end up part of the Sox plan for the ML team.

[Bellhorn04]

If Aviles plays poor SS defence early, will they have any choice but to bring Iggy up?

[jacksonianmarch]

Of course. I like Aviles and think he could adequately play the position to a point that sox fans won't be gnashing their teeth on a daily basis. Cherington brought in Punto so you wouldnt have to rush Iglesias

[ibot2much]

 

All we heard about is what a great offense the Sox have and in the end it comes down to having to have Mike Aviles in the line up when we spent $14M to keep Ortiz in the line up. An offense that must take Aviles at SS does not sound like a great offense to me.

 

 

The last time I checked, the $14 mil man was batting in the 170s. Hope he improves pretty soon because seeing him swing through the air reminds me too much of a couple of years ago.

[jung]

I don't think the line of demarkation between Aviles and Iggy will be the recognizing the plays that Aviles can make but the plays that Iggy would make if he was here. Aviles is kind of stone handed so I guess the balls that get through Aviles will be more obvious than the balls that get by Aviles.

 

But we know Aviles is being chosen for his offense and again I think the thing that will be apparent very quickly is what kind of offensive lineup this is with Punto as the SS once they start moving Aviles around to play 2nd, 3rd or outfield due to injury vs having Iggy in the lineup as the everyday SS and plugging Aviles in where he is needed. That is in fact the best way to use Aviles.

 

Bringing in Punto was the big mistake to me and one the FO seems unwilling to reverse.

[jung]

I am stuck believing Ortiz will bounce back although I did not like what the Sox did with Ortiz. Now I am stuck believing Ortiz will bounce back because I don't have a choice. Mike Aviles cannot replace Ortiz in the lineup if Ortiz falls apart.

[a700hitter]

I am stuck believing Ortiz will bounce back although I did not like what the Sox did with Ortiz. Now I am stuck believing Ortiz will bounce back because I don't have a choice. Mike Aviles cannot replace Ortiz in the lineup if Ortiz falls apart.

Bounce back form what? Is he injured?

[jung]

Bounce back form what?

 

If you look a few posts up the comment was made that Ortiz has not exactly lit up the place at the plate this spring. Frankly I think he will be much better than he has shown so far this spring. Not convinced he will be worth the $14M he is getting but I do think he will "bounce back" from his spring showing to date.

[Spudboy]

Oh no! The ship is sinking!!!!!

 

Heavens to mergetroid Batman. What will we do?

 

Do you guys realize that "Iggy" will be about 40 miles down the road and an hour drive from Fenway? It's not like he'll be playing in South Dakoda! This does not mean he will never play shortstop for the Sox.

 

I really would prefer that he be in Boston for his D if nothing else. I guess I should be grateful that McCoy is only about 8 miles from my home. I think I may go on an Iggy watch.

[ibot2much]

Bounce back form what? Is he injured?

 

 

Injured? Just sucking at the plate. So he would hopefully "bounce back" from his suckoid recent performances.