Red Sox 2012 Spring Training Thread.

[Dojji]

The only fly in that ointment is that Bard is so screwed up at present that I would not trust him with the ball in the 8th inning right now.

 

I don't think Bard is that badly screwed up. He's just doing what he would do as a starter -- existing as a work in progress.

 

Of course my bar for being "screwed up" was set by one Mr. Craig Hansen, so I might be defining things a bit more permissively.

[SCM33]

I don't think Bard is that badly screwed up. He's just doing what he would do as a starter -- existing as a work in progress.

 

Of course my bar for being "screwed up" was set by one Mr. Craig Hansen, so I might be defining things a bit more permissively.

 

Craig Hansen wasn't screwed up, he just wasnt that good. He had plenty of chances. At no point in 95 game pitching career did he look like he belonged, and his mechanics were terrible to boot.

 

Plenty of players are brought up too early and then find themselves, just look at Roy Halladay. Cla Meredith gave up a grandslam and lost his first decision in relief and he went on to be productive for a couple seasons at least.

 

If Craig Hansen was screwed up because he lacked mental toughness, then he was never going to succeed to begin with.

[Spudboy]

Liked what I saw from Cook tonight. He clearly has the composure and the mentality of a starter.

 

He might be an interesting alternative after all. Nice to see a guy go out there and look like he is a starter.

 

I liked what I saw tonight from Cook also. I love sinkerball pitchers. I especially liked his pickoff move. If Cook were to be a starter' date=' I'd think the cry of Iggy in the bigs would be deafening.[/quote']

 

I too was pleasantly surprised and am now curious and hopeful by what I saw from Cook last night. Although it must be remembered that the Yankees did not field their "A" line-up, just a bunch of minor leagues players for the most part. It seems that he tired in the 4th inning and left some pitch hanging high in the zone and began to pay the price for it. I was encouraged never the less.

 

And I really want to see Iggy play and hopefully make the 25 man roster.

[Spudboy]

Craig Hansen wasn't screwed up, he just wasnt that good. He had plenty of chances. At no point in 95 game pitching career did he look like he belonged, and his mechanics were terrible to boot.

 

Plenty of players are brought up too early and then find themselves, just look at Roy Halladay. Cla Meredith gave up a grandslam and lost his first decision in relief and he went on to be productive for a couple seasons at least.

 

If Craig Hansen was screwed up because he lacked mental toughness, then he was never going to succeed to begin with.

 

I don't know SCM. I really think the Sox rushed him and that was very unfortunate. He did have many chances, though.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Cook was pretty sharp for three innings until the wheels weakened in the fourth. Still, if he is healthy maybe we've got a pleasant surprise in store for us. We can sure us some of the pleasant variety after all the unpleasant ones the past three seasons. Of course, we wait with baited breath to see if the injury barrage hits us again---I just hope Pedroia is alright and will not be on the shelf. We cannot afford to lose him or anyone of importance, not this year when we need every good player standing.

 

Great squeeze by Valentine to tie it in the ninth. Think Francona would have called for such a play? Not in a million years.

 

Bottom of the 9th, down by 1? Francona is still playing for a 3 run homer when we only need 2.

[mvp 78]

Bottom of the 9th' date=' down by 1? Francona is still playing for a 3 run homer when we only need 2.[/quote']

 

It's Spring Training. Wins don't matter. I'd rather them work on squeeze plays than worry about a W.

[Dojji]

Craig Hansen wasn't screwed up, he just wasnt that good. He had plenty of chances. At no point in 95 game pitching career did he look like he belonged, and his mechanics were terrible to boot.

 

Plenty of players are brought up too early and then find themselves, just look at Roy Halladay. Cla Meredith gave up a grandslam and lost his first decision in relief and he went on to be productive for a couple seasons at least.

 

If Craig Hansen was screwed up because he lacked mental toughness, then he was never going to succeed to begin with.

 

Craig Hansen was screwed up like Andrew Miller was screwed up, and for very similar reasons. They rushed the crap out of the kid when they didn't have to because of his major league deal. I'm increasingly convinced that "big league contracts" should never be handed out to any drafted player for any reason.

[jacksonianmarch]

Craig Hansen was screwed up like Andrew Miller was screwed up' date=' and for very similar reasons. They rushed the crap out of the kid when they didn't have to because of his major league deal. I'm increasingly convinced that "big league contracts" should never be handed out to any drafted player for any reason.[/quote']

 

The Yankees added a policy with drafted players to not give them MLB contracts after dealing with Brackman. It's a good policy. The agents negotiate it in there to get their service time to start soon, but if they develop slower than anticipated, it could kill their career.

[Dojji]

Pretty much.

 

The history of recent MLB contracts is pretty danged spotty. Among the best of the recent ones was Stephen Strasburg, and he still overworked his arm resulting in injury. A couple years acclimating in the minors would have done him some good.

[Station 13]

Hansen was terrible. He bombed in the majors wasn't because he got rushed, he wasn't good in the first place. They all have options to go down the minors for a reasons.

[example1]

Hansen could have had the opportunity to work his way through the minors like Bard did though. He didn't have that chance, they put him in the season he was drafted. What he needed was tons of professional coaching. Chances are it wasn't going to work anyway, but he didn't have the chance to make it work either.

 

The reality is that it is MUCH too tempting to rush a guy with a power arm and hope that being able to throw hard with a mediocre secondary offering is enough to find success at the MLB level. Being a major league pitcher requires a lot of polish.

[example1]

http://www.necn.com/03/23/12/Jenks-arrested-on-charges-of-DUI/landing_sports.html?blockID=675524&feedID=3352

 

Doesn't really warrant it's own thread. Jenks arrested for drunk driving. i bet this takes him out of the running to be a significant part of the bullpen... oh, wait, he wasn't going to be anyway.

[Station 13]

DFA the turd already. What a piece of junk.

[Elktonnick]

It's Spring Training. Wins don't matter. I'd rather them work on squeeze plays than worry about a W.

 

The beautiful things about that squeeze play were: It was executed to perfection telling BV who can count on to lay down a bunt in that situation and secondly sent a message to both his players and opponents expect the unexpected. This will keep everyone including all Red Sox players they better stay on their toes, pay attention and don't miss any signs. That always wasn't the case last year.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I would like to say as probably one of the only people on this board who has watched almost every Colorado Rockies game since 2003, please don't be too encouraged by Aaron Cook. When he's good, he's good, he's a great groundball pitcher. But much like Wakefield, when he's not at his absolute best, he's awful. Some guys can not be at their best and still gut out 7 innings. Aaron Cook either pitches 7 innings of 1-run ball or pitches 1 inning of 7-run ball.

 

I would like to see him become a working part of the Sox pitching staff, but I am not convinced he can make the transition from probably the easiest division in baseball to what is certainly the most difficult.

[RedSoxNC84]

I would like to say as probably one of the only people on this board who has watched almost every Colorado Rockies game since 2003, please don't be too encouraged by Aaron Cook. When he's good, he's good, he's a great groundball pitcher. But much like Wakefield, when he's not at his absolute best, he's awful. Some guys can not be at their best and still gut out 7 innings. Aaron Cook either pitches 7 innings of 1-run ball or pitches 1 inning of 7-run ball.

 

I would like to see him become a working part of the Sox pitching staff, but I am not convinced he can make the transition from probably the easiest division in baseball to what is certainly the most difficult.

 

1 inning of 7 run ball is probably still better than John Lackey.

[SoxSport]

I would say the most alarming thing I've seen about Bard this spring is the incredible amount of media scrutiny and pre-judgement about him. The same goes for Iglesias. If it weren't for those bloated salaries, I might feel a bit sorry for them.

 

The other thing I've noticed is Bobby V talks too much to the media--about his players. He won't get their trust that way. Tito was better with the media. He fed them a lot of BS.

[jung]

Well since we regularly question hitters when they move away from the Colorado launch pad, don't we have to cut Cook a little slack for the same reason?

 

That said, it is pretty obvious that he will not throw many fly ball outs. If the ball gets in the air on him it is headed for an ugly spot. It is not headed for some outfielders glove. He must keep the ball down.

 

The only reason Cook is interesting here is because we do not have that many good options down at the bottom of the rotation.

[Palodios]

http://www.necn.com/03/23/12/Jenks-arrested-on-charges-of-DUI/landing_sports.html?blockID=675524&feedID=3352

 

Doesn't really warrant it's own thread. Jenks arrested for drunk driving. i bet this takes him out of the running to be a significant part of the bullpen... oh, wait, he wasn't going to be anyway.

 

Anyone know if there are any clauses in his contract that could nullify this year of the contract? I tried digging it up, but there isn't much history there. Apparently most contracts have felony clauses -- he had 5 misdemeanors-- and include this following clause:

 

A contract can be voided if a player "shall fail, refuse, or neglect to conform his personal conduct to the standards of good citizenship and good sportsmanship or keep himself in first-class physical condition".

 

They might as well give it a shot, he aint playing this year anyway.

[jung]

A contract can be voided if a player "shall fail, refuse, or neglect to conform his personal conduct to the standards of good citizenship and good sportsmanship or keep himself in first-class physical condition".

 

That is a tough one to get anything out of. If the Sox got some inkling of whether the Players Union would stand on the sidelines for this one then it might be worth a shot. However I would be willing to bet that even for Jenks, the Players Union will step up to the plate. By the time you are done with all of the legal bull you go through at that point it is likely more trouble than it is worth even given how little we would expect to be getting out of Jenks.

 

What a disaster Jenks has been even for Jenks. Has anybody got anything new on which set of doctors screwed up his surgery or if he is actually suing anybody over that mess?

[SoxSport]

The last couple years, Epstein seemed to be throwing darts at the wall--without much of a target. Some of them seemed to have boomeranged and hit him on the ass going out the door.

[Palodios]

That is a tough one to get anything out of. If the Sox got some inkling of whether the Players Union would stand on the sidelines for this one then it might be worth a shot. However I would be willing to bet that even for Jenks' date=' the Players Union will step up to the plate. By the time you are done with all of the legal bull you go through at that point it is likely more trouble than it is worth even given how little we would expect to be getting out of Jenks.[/quote']

 

I would assume that it isn't a drawn out process, it is a one-and-done type deal.

 

If anyone has a case, it has to be the Red Sox here. This is my argument:

 

1) At the beginning of 2011, he started the season by bitching at Ozzie Guillen, and coming to camp even more out-of-shape than usual-- causing him to get hurt.

 

2) He was out at 4 in the morning, cruising strip clubs, overdosed on muscle relaxants and who knows what else. Seriously, he must have taken fifty of those things to overdose. He hit multiple vehicles, and has five misdemeanors. If I had a DUI, I would get fired from my job.

 

3) The reason he isn't playing in 2012 is not a baseball injury. He can sue the doctors for his 2012 salary, but this is not a job-related injury.

 

4) In a town where ALL of the players participate in charity events... Jenk's involvement has been minimal. I googled "Bobby Jenks Charity" "Bobby Jenks jimmy fund" "bobby jenks cancer" and didn't found anything. So its not like he can use the ole "Good for the community" defense.

 

5) He's being paid to do nothing. Literally. He has done nothing, and is receiving 12 million dollars for 15 innings. That's almost a million dollars per inning.

 

I think Jenks should stay out of Boston, and never come back.

[seabeachfred]

It's Spring Training. Wins don't matter. I'd rather them work on squeeze plays than worry about a W.

 

Here is where I disagree MVP. I think ST wins DO matter, especially when you go in the tank as we did last Spring with that 12 game losing streak. We were bummed out from that and it carried right into the regular season. I'm noticing the Angels this Spring; they are hammering away at the opposition in Arizona and will head into regular season play full speed ahead. I personally think we better start winning many of these remaining Grapefruit League games or we can have a redux of what went down last year. Losing games in bunches are we are now doing does nothing to add momentum or confidence to a team. That also was provn last year.

[jung]

I would assume that it isn't a drawn out process, it is a one-and-done type deal.

 

Why would you assume that? That language is in the standard contract. The Players Union is not very likely to stand by and allow that language to be used against a player. I know that in one way that does not make any sense but the Baseball Players Union is incredibly strong....always has been. They will not likely lay down for anything or anybody especially when it comes to language that is in every union member's contract. There fear would be a precedent that would lay the groundwork for other similar actions by teams against players. They just will not let it happen in my view. That particular union is not about fairness or right and wrong. It has always been an Us vs Them union.

 

If they are not going to lay down then it goes to court and ends up in an out of court settlement with undisclosed terms or goes the limit. Neither one of those sounds like a one and done at least if I am understanding how you are using that turn of phrase.

 

Now if as was suggested today there is specific language in Joba's contract about the use of a trampoline and an injury sustained because of it, I believe the Union would stand down if the Yanks want to pursue that. If the specific language is there and Joba did in fact injure himself using a trampoline, I do not believe the union would fight. In fact I think they had chosen not to fight in a very similar situation. Darned if I can remember the player though.

 

But with regard to language that is as broad, nebulous and sweeping as the language referred to in the standard contract....I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell of the Union standing down.

[JohnGreen2004]

I would say the most alarming thing I've seen about Bard this spring is the incredible amount of media scrutiny and pre-judgement about him. The same goes for Iglesias. If it weren't for those bloated salaries, I might feel a bit sorry for them.

 

The other thing I've noticed is Bobby V talks too much to the media--about his players. He won't get their trust that way. Tito was better with the media. He fed them a lot of BS.

I agree with you on this, The scrutiny of Daniel Bard has been horrendous. The media is literally acting like he's getting torched every time he throws a pitch. If they knew anything they would know that in games he has STARTED, his ERA is 2.70, 1.10 WHIP, and he's given up just 5 hits in 10 innings. The walks are a concern (6 in those 10 innings) but I think it would be crazy to cut the cord on him prematurely without finding out if it can be corrected.

 

Also it's not like he has had a problem going deep in games. He went five (on par with the top 3 starters) in his last start and looked stronger in the 4th and 5th then he did in the first. His next start will surely be critical and with all the media stuff he's likely to tank just from pressure, they aren't helping his transition by questioning his ability.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Red Sox decisions are said to split Valentine, Cherington

 

Bobby Valentine has spent most of this spring verbally sparring with the Yankees, but scouts along Florida's west coast are more interested in how Valentine's relationship with Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington will play out.

 

The two are said to disagree on three significant decisions that are playing out in the final days of spring training. Valentine is said by sources to favor moving Daniel Bard back to the bullpen, and also would like the Red Sox to keep both shortstop Jose Iglesias and catcher Ryan Lavarnway on the major-league roster.

 

Valentine, sources say, is not a fan of Kelly Shoppach, signed to be the backup catcher behind Jarrod Saltalamacchia, and is not excited about using Mike Aviles at shortstop. And Valentine, who has always felt that a strong bullpen is crucial to a team's success, is said to have some concerns about the back end of the Red Sox pen.

 

Cherington, meanwhile, is said to be in favor of Bard in the rotation, and Iglesias and Lavarnway beginning the season in Triple-A.

 

Disagreements between managers and general managers are hardly unusual, especially in the final days of spring training. What makes the Red Sox situation more interesting is the widespread belief that Cherington didn't favor Valentine as manager when the Red Sox were making their choice last fall.

 

Scouts who have watched the Red Sox this spring are split on the same decisions that are said to be dividing Valentine and Cherington. There's plenty who feel Bard should be back in the bullpen, but others who think the Red Sox are making the right move by starting him.

 

Similarly, scouts are divided over whether Iglesias has developed enough offensively to survive in the big leagues.

 

The Boston Globe also wrote about the Cherington-Valentine split on Bard and Iglesias.

 

If you ask me, I say Bard to rotation along with Doubront, although at the same time, I would be just fine with a guy like Aaron Cook holding down the 4th slot if he can manage a 4.1-4.2 ERA only because a bullpen with Bailey, Bard, Aceves, Melancon, Padilla (until Rich Hill), Morales, and Albers seems very, very strong.

 

In terms of Iglesias - Put him at SS all day long. Every single day. The upgrade that Aviles will bring offensively isn't nearly as significant as the upgrade that Iggy brings defensively, and if there is any team in baseball that needs extremely strong defense up the middle, it's the Red Sox. With Pedroia/Iglesias/Ellsbury, I don't think there would be a team in baseball with stronger up-the-middle D. No telling how many hits that could save, which equates to runs saved, which equates to more innings, and thus less innings for our bullpen.

 

Finally - Lavarnway. I never understood the Shoppach signing. Made zero sense to me. We have a guy in Lavarnway who started game 162 last season, the absolute most important game of the entire season. Now our FO is saying he needs more seasoning? Come on, that's pretty ridiculous.

 

Cook or Bard as #4 man, Doubront as #5 man. Lavarnway and Salty splitting duties as C. Iglesias as everyday SS.

[User Name]

Finally - Lavarnway. I never understood the Shoppach signing. Made zero sense to me. We have a guy in Lavarnway who started game 162 last season, the absolute most important game of the entire season. Now our FO is saying he needs more seasoning? Come on, that's pretty ridiculous.

 

He's a butcher at catcher. The cup of coffee he got in the Majors last year doesn't negate it. Let him finish his defensive development and he can come up mid-season.

[seabeachfred]

1 inning of 7 run ball is probably still better than John Lackey.

 

You know, I'm beginning to know what Valentine must be going through right now. Every time one of our potential starters looks like he's getting a little ahead of the game, Whoosh!!!! They get their asses handed to them. Today it was Aceves, who really got tagged, didn't he? Was this a hiccup or a portent of things to come. OTOH, Dubrount looked very good today. What to me make of that? Now we have to see how Bard and Cook do in their next outings, Bard tomorrow and Cook early next week. Lots of decisions to make my friends and I'm glad it's Valentine and not me making those decisions. All I know is that none of the potential 4th or 5th potential starters have distinguised themselves up to now. Anybody got any pearls on this dilemma, please inform me. I really don't know what Valentine can or will do save to believe that Bard should back to the bullpen. :dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

[RedSoxNC84]

Well by that account, I guess we'd better expect Doubront and Cook to get their asses handed to them soon.

 

Honestly I do wonder how long it would take before that happened. I'm still completely surprised Cook is even in the mix, and that he's actually done as well as he has so far.

[SoxSport]

I agree with you on this, The scrutiny of Daniel Bard has been horrendous. The media is literally acting like he's getting torched every time he throws a pitch. If they knew anything they would know that in games he has STARTED, his ERA is 2.70, 1.10 WHIP, and he's given up just 5 hits in 10 innings. The walks are a concern (6 in those 10 innings) but I think it would be crazy to cut the cord on him prematurely without finding out if it can be corrected.

 

Also it's not like he has had a problem going deep in games. He went five (on par with the top 3 starters) in his last start and looked stronger in the 4th and 5th then he did in the first. His next start will surely be critical and with all the media stuff he's likely to tank just from pressure, they aren't helping his transition by questioning his ability.

 

Yeah, the Red Sox are getting killed in the media. Beer and chicken, power struggles, Bard, Iglesias,etc. Anything that can generate some conflict...and readership. Not that they don't deserve it. They brought it on themselves. But then, so did the Atlanta Braves. Atlanta who? Far from the maddening crowd.