Red Sox 2012 Spring Training Thread.

[User Name]

For all intents and purposes, Bard's going to end up back in the BP as he approaches his innings limit anyway.

[mvp 78]

And if he sucks like Lackey in 2011, will you still defend him?

[SCM33]

Im calling it now' date=' padillas gonna turn out to a decent starter for this team. I can see him pulling an era in the low to mid 4s and is there really much more you can ask for than that.[/quote']

 

 

If that puts Bard back to the pen, Im all for it.

 

I dont want Bard back in the pen because I think he sucks....I want Bard in the pen because Im not so sure hes a starting pitcher and we already know what value he has in the pen.

 

EDIT: Wording of this might confuse people, Im trying to say Bard is a great pitcher and that I believe he has more value in the pen.

[User Name]

And if he sucks like Lackey in 2011' date=' will you still defend him?[/quote']

 

Is it even possible to suck as much as Lackey did in 2011 though?

[BornToRun]

I want him in the pen too. The reason he was turned into a reliever in the first place was his inability as a starter in the minors.

[VA Sox Fan]

Im calling it now' date=' padillas gonna turn out to a decent starter for this team. I can see him pulling an era in the low to mid 4s and is there really much more you can ask for than that.[/quote']

 

I hope you're right!

[mvp 78]

Is it even possible to suck as much as Lackey did in 2011 though?

 

Yes, but that was for BTR's Padilla comment, not yours.

[BornToRun]

I hope you're right!

 

Well if it's of any help, I was a stuanch believer that Beckett was gonna have a great year last year so Ive made decent predictions before.

[mvp 78]

If that puts Bard back to the pen, Im all for it.

 

I dont want Bard back in the pen because I think he sucks....I want Bard in the pen because Im not so sure hes a starting pitcher and we already know what value he has in the pen.

 

EDIT: Wording of this might confuse people, Im trying to say Bard is a great pitcher and that I believe he has more value in the pen.

 

I say, give him a spot in the rotation for April - May and if he sucks on Memorial Day, move him to set up.

[BornToRun]

And if he sucks like Lackey in 2011' date=' will you still defend him?[/quote']

 

Well I defended lackey so I wouldn't put anything past myself.

[User Name]

Yes' date=' but that was for BTR's Padilla comment, not yours.[/quote']

 

But Padilla is what i was referring to though.

[SCM33]

Well I defended lackey so I wouldn't put anything past myself.

 

THATS RIGHT!

 

I forgot about that. What were you thinking?

[mvp 78]

But Padilla is what i was referring to though.

 

Yes, Padilla could be that bad.

[BornToRun]

THATS RIGHT!

 

I forgot about that. What were you thinking?

 

I felt bad for him with the whole wife thing and he actually put together a decent string of starts in the middle of the season last year before falling off the wagon again.

[User Name]

Yes' date=' Padilla could be that bad.[/quote']

 

I don't think that's possible, mainly because he'd have a meltdown and he'd get sent back to Mexico before he could reach Lackey levels of futility.

[BornToRun]

I don't think that's possible' date=' mainly because he'd have a meltdown and he'd get sent back to Mexico before he could reach Lackey levels of futility. [/quote']

 

I think the fans would take care of him themselves if he approached the levels of suck that lackey was at during the lion's share of last year.

[seabeachfred]

Alfredo Aceves called' date=' said you were forgetting someone.[/quote']

 

BTR, If you'll pardon my audacity in trying to speak for all my colleagues around here, I'm sure none of us have forgotten Alfredo at all. We know the guy gives his all and usually does very well but it's a helluva lot to ask that all of a sudden without warning he is asked to be the closer when he hasn't ever closed before---and only days before the season begins. What the hell was going on in the first place when all the lips were sealed and no one said boo about Bailey's bum thumb? After all, it had been ten days since he had pitched and someone had to know something was amiss.

 

It's too late for that person who demanded that Bard become the closer the day Papelbon signed with the Phillies, but we sure should have had something in readiness the moment it was found that Bailey had come up lame. All winter long there have been two camps on this board....one camp who believes that this season is a rebuilding or reviving one and the other who think that t here is a real possibility to make a go of it. Now hearing this s***, what are the upbeat people to think? Hell of a way to enter a new season.

[BornToRun]

BTR, If you'll pardon my audacity in trying to speak for all my colleagues around here, I'm sure none of us have forgotten Alfredo at all. We know the guy gives his all and usually does very well but it's a helluva lot to ask that all of a sudden without warning he is asked to be the closer when he hasn't ever closed before---and only days before the season begins. What the hell was going on in the first place when all the lips were sealed and no one said boo about Bailey's bum thumb? After all, it had been ten days since he had pitched and someone had to know something was amiss.

 

It's too late for that person who demanded that Bard become the closer the day Papelbon signed with the Phillies, but we sure should have had something in readiness the moment it was found that Bailey had come up lame. All winter long there have been two camps on this board....one camp who believes that this season is a rebuilding or reviving one and the other who think that t here is a real possibility to make a go of it. Now hearing this s***, what are the upbeat people to think? Hell of a way to enter a new season.

Im not saying we should use him as the closer. I was just responding to a700s comment about having no one valuable in the pen.

[seabeachfred]

They really need to put Bard back into the bullpen and have Cook start. It solves all of the problems.

 

That's a helluva idea Palodios; I wonder if Valentine and Cherington have thought that one out and would even agree on it. As it is today we heard Doubrant and Bard were going to be the fourth and fifth starters, and I also wonder if BV is flexible enough to alter his thinking to let this happen. When I think that we may now have to depend of Morales and Albers for heavy duty work, I'm reminded what General Cota said when the word was given that Operation Overlord was now on....GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

[jung]

I really don't know what to think about the Bailey thing. I don't think it has anything to do with Bard because as enticing as it might be to throw him into a closer's role for a couple of weeks it is kinda' hard to have him working all ST and before toward starting and then turn him on a dime into the closer regardless of the limited work he will see as the 5 early on. Probably says something about how committed the Sox organization has been to trying Bard in the starter's role at least for some period of time in spite of what V might want. That might still be a possibility.

 

I suspect they are going to have to move everybody who is in the pen up one notch which makes Melancon the closer for a period I would think.

[seabeachfred]

That's not how they see it over the long term. Bard could possibly evolve into a frontline starter, and he's simply more valuable (if effective) as a starter than as a reliever.

 

It's much easier to find a good reliever than a good starter.

 

Well Cherington better get on his high horse and get us a reliever of some quality because the worst kept secret is that we now need one very badly. Bard wants to start, Aceves wanted to start, and now we have to depend on our starters going real deep into games and depend on the likes of Albers and Morales for quality innings. I always thought the mindset was THE TEAM COMES FIRST. Put Bard AND Aceves in the pen and give Cook a chance to start. You do this for the GOOD OF THE TEAM.

[User Name]

Aceves is in the bullpen. They're keeping Bard in the rotation, because they think he's too good to be a set-up man. THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT THE LONG-TERM GOOD OF THE TEAM.

 

Besides, Bailey has a thumb injury, not a UCL tear. Calm down.

[jung]

Woooah Big Fella. Moving a whole bunch of pieces around the board because Bailey has an unspecified thumb injury does seem a bit excessive.

 

I will say this much. If we do see the Sox move a whole bunch of pieces around the board and even bring more pieces in from Pawtucket or in trade then it will because the thumb injury is serious.

 

I doubt that is the case and I am pretty much convinced they will do what I said earlier and move everybody up one spot that is in the current pen.

[mvp 78]

How is a SP with a 6 ERA in 2011, good for the team?

 

I want the best pitchers pitching the most innings. Cook would be the low man on the totem pole. Garbage time at best.

[ORS]

I say' date=' give him a spot in the rotation for April - May and if he sucks on Memorial Day, move him to set up.[/quote']

This is the appropriate course of action. You don't ditch your long-term plans (Bard in the rotation) because of some short-term adversity (Bailey's thumb boo-boo).

[User Name]

This is the appropriate course of action. You don't ditch your long-term plans (Bard in the rotation) because of some short-term adversity (Bailey's thumb boo-boo).

 

You and MVP are my favorite posters here.

[User Name]

MLBTR's Off-season in review analysis for the Red Sox:

 

Offseason In Review: Boston Red Sox

By Ben Nicholson-Smith [March 27, 2012 at 11:15am CST]

 

The new-look Red Sox aim to return to the postseason in 2012 after an offseason of trades and restrained free agent spending.

 

Major League Signings

 

David Ortiz, DH: one-year, $14.58MM. Accepted arbitration.

Marco Scutaro, SS: one-year, $6MM. Club option exercised before trade with Rockies.

Cody Ross, OF: one year, $3MM.

Nick Punto, UT: two years, $3MM.

Kelly Shoppach, C: one year, $1.35MM.

Andrew Miller, SP: one year.

Total spend: $27.93MM.

 

Notable Minor League Signings

 

Tony Pena, Jesse Carlson, Rich Hill, Pedro Ciriaco, Scott Atchison, Brandon Duckworth, Carlos Silva, Aaron Cook, Vicente Padilla, Max St. Pierre, John Maine, Ross Ohlendorf.

 

Trades and Claims

 

Acquired RP Andrew Bailey and OF Ryan Sweeney from the Athletics for OF Josh Reddick, 1B Miles Head and SP Raul Alcantara.

Acquired RP Mark Melancon from the Astros for SS Jed Lowrie and SP Kyle Weiland.

Acquired RP Chris Carpenter and a player to be named from the Cubs for GM Theo Epstein and a player to be named.

Acquired RHP Clayton Mortensen from the Rockies for SS Marco Scutaro.

Acquired IF Brad Emaus from the Rockies for a player to be named or cash.

Claimed IF Marwin Gonzalez from the Cubs in Rule 5 draft; traded Gonzalez to the Astros for Marco Duarte.

 

Notable Losses

 

Jonathan Papelbon, J.D. Drew, Jason Varitek, Tim Wakefield, Mike Cameron, Conor Jackson, Dan Wheeler, Erik Bedard, Reddick, Head, Alcantara, Lowrie, Weiland, Scutaro.

 

Draft Picks Gained or Lost

 

Obtained 31st overall selection from Phillies for Papelbon. Also obtain supplementary first round pick.

 

In their final offseason under Theo Epstein, the Red Sox signed Carl Crawford, traded for Adrian Gonzalez and generated an unprecedented amount of hype. The first offseason under Ben Cherington was far more subdued, but the 2012 Red Sox have the makings of a playoff contender nonetheless.

 

"After two straight offseasons filled with significant contract commitments we knew this one would look a little different," GM Ben Cherington told MLBTR. "We made moves that we hope give us a more balanced roster and give us a chance to come up with good pitching solutions."

 

The Red Sox traded for relief help and strengthened their bench after making their biggest offseason addition: manager Bobby Valentine. Cherington initially seemed to favor younger candidates such as Sandy Alomar Jr. and Torey Lovullo, but ultimately opted for the experience and energy of Valentine. From a strict sabermetric standpoint managerial hires matter less than player moves, but there’s no denying the importance of this decision. Following a 2011 season that skidded out of control under Terry Francona’s watch, the Red Sox needed new leadership.

 

After much discussion and speculation, the Red Sox obtained relievers Chris Carpenter and Aaron Kurcz from the Cubs for Theo Epstein. Chances are Epstein will make a bigger impact on the Cubs than Carpenter and Kurcz will on the Red Sox, but Red Sox ownership seemed to lose leverage once Epstein started working for the Cubs. At least they got something for letting their longtime GM go.

 

Credit Cherington for offering Papelbon arbitration then letting him sign with the Phillies as a free agent. As successful as Papelbon’s tenure in Boston was, $50MM for a reliever represents a luxury item even the Red Sox should pass on.

 

Instead, the Red Sox traded for right-handed relievers Andrew Bailey and Mark Melancon, two pitchers whose stuff and makeup impressed Cherington from afar. The Red Sox surrendered some valuable pieces in the process, but the big league team wasn’t counting on Jed Lowrie, Kyle Weiland and Josh Reddick in a major way. Not only are Bailey and Melancon relatively affordable, they're under team control through 2014 and 2016, respectively.

 

The acquisitions of Bailey and Melancon freed up reliever Daniel Bard, who has been preparing for the season as a starter. Perhaps the successful conversions of Rangers relievers C.J. Wilson and Alexi Ogando inspired the Red Sox to make the change.

 

The Red Sox showed interest in free agents such as Roy Oswalt, Edwin Jackson and Hiroki Kuroda and trade candidates such as Gio Gonzalez, but ultimately passed. The team was painfully thin on rotation depth during last year’s collapse, so I expected Cherington to add at least one established starter this offseason. The Red Sox would have done well to acquire an above-average starter to slot in behind Jon Lester, Josh Beckett and Clay Buchholz. Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

 

"The acquisition cost of proven starters via trade or free agency just wasn’t to our liking," Cherington wrote in an email. "Therefore we are trying to come up with solutions out of a pool of guys who are less proven. It carries more risk but also more upside as there is an opportunity to build value."

 

Cherington added some interesting names on minor league deals, and perhaps they will prove just as productive as Yankees starters Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia did a year ago. Non-roster invitees such as Carlos Silva (since released), Aaron Cook, Vicente Padilla or Ross Ohlendorf were candidates for the final rotation spot, though left-hander Felix Doubront may get the nod for now.

 

As it turned out, Cherington’s biggest free agent signing was not Jackson, or Oswalt or Yu Darvish. Cody Ross and Nick Punto share that distinction after signing for $3MM each. Ross, who can play all three outfield positions and hit left-handed pitching (.912 career OPS against lefties), makes perfect sense for a Red Sox outfield that includes left-handed hitters Carl Crawford, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Ryan Sweeney. Punto, a candidate for regular playing time on the infield, provides defensive versatility. Kelly Shoppach, another free agent addition to the bench, offers strong defense in a reserve role.

 

David Ortiz accepted the team's offer of arbitration, and will play for $14.58MM in 2012. The Red Sox did well to retain Big Papi, the top DH in baseball, without committing to him on a multiyear deal. No team in baseball outscored the 2011 Red Sox, and Ortiz is a critical element of their offense.

 

It’s not completely surprising that the Red Sox traded Marco Scutaro after exercising his option, but it’s puzzling that they waited so long to complete the deal. If they had made Scutaro available earlier on, they could have engaged teams such as the Brewers, Pirates and Giants and might have obtained more in return than Clayton Mortensen. The trade appears to have been motivated in part by ownership’s interest in avoiding luxury tax penalties. The Red Sox remain a big-market team by just about any measure, but even baseball's most aggressive spenders are now sidestepping the luxury tax.

 

There's no mistaking this team for the 2011 Red Sox. Gone are Epstein, Francona, Papelbon, Drew and Scutaro. Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield both retired after long careers with the Red Sox, making Ortiz the team's longest-tenured player. Despite the devastating way in which Boston's 2011 season ended, this team is poised to contend in 2012 as long as the back of the rotation pitches as well as the Red Sox think it can.

[jung]

Neat write up....thanks for posting it UN. The only thing I did not agree with was the comment about the back end of the rotation. We should be so lucky. If the back end of the rotation does become a factor or the factor it will be because the front end of the rotation stayed healthy and performed.

 

One reason I hope this all works out for the Sox is because they did not go out and make some big splash signing. They seem to blow up all to often and you end up with expectations that are so hard to meet. The Sox remained true to their voiced intentions this off season and I think they did get reasonable value for limited expenditures. Did not like the Ortiz thing but I have seen worse things unless this is the year that he ages before our eyes. I don't think that will be the case but there were other reasons I wanted them to move away from Ortiz anyway.

 

Punto was not my favorite deal either but it is not like they paid a ton of money for him. I would love to see this trend continue. Maybe we will fall in line as well and not get sweaty palms every time some big name FA becomes available.

 

I would definitely like to see a solid, maybe even big name pitcher signed in 2013 when there are a number of pitching candidates that come available.

[Palodios]

This is the appropriate course of action. You don't ditch your long-term plans (Bard in the rotation) because of some short-term adversity (Bailey's thumb boo-boo).

 

The problem is that Bard in the rotation is a long-long term plan. He's not breaking 150 innings this year, and won't be a top of the rotation guy this year. My argument is that Cook/Padilla could potentially do nearly as well as Bard in the rotation... while Bard would do significantly better in the rotation than Cook/Padilla. Unless someone sees Bard throwing in the mid 3s as a starter, it just seems like the bullpen is where he has the most value to this team.

[jung]

So when do you try to resolve the issue of trying to vet the possibility of gaining a real deal starter out of Bard? This year they make him the 5 which automatically limits his innings and they have dice coming back mid season allowing them to decide at that time whether it makes sense to move Bard back to the pen for what remains of this season. If he performs well as a starter Bard will know that moving back to the pen will be as a consequence of dice returning so it is not like he will go into the tank because he goes back to the pen at that point. If that happens hopefully Bard will go back because for once we will have an abundance of starting pitching.

 

The Sox are simply not going to be better set up to vet Bard as a starter than they are this year.