Peering into the Pitching Garbage Pail with your Pal, Pal

[Emmz]

I judge talent by the bottom line: getting results. Think Miller has talent? Think again. Both Miller and Doubrant have some skills, but little talent. Here, for example, is one common definition of talent:

 

a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.

 

Show me the success Miller or Doubrant has achieved in MLB and I will concede the point to you.

Until then, you are wrong. Again.

 

You misinterpreted the definition you just posted LOL.

[FredLynn]

You misinterpreted the definition you just posted LOL.

 

Nope.

(LOL)

[mvp 78]

I'd cut Doubront and Miller a little slack. If Miller worked out his control issues, he'd be a fine 5 or 6. Doubront (and Tazawa) needs to have a strong ST. I remember Junichi pitching well against NYY 2 seasons ago. People were high on him then, don't know why people would be down on him now.

[Elktonnick]

I'd cut Doubront and Miller a little slack. If Miller worked out his control issues' date=' he'd be a fine 5 or 6. Doubront (and Tazawa) needs to have a strong ST. I remember Junichi pitching well against NYY 2 seasons ago. People were high on him then, don't know why people would be down on him now.[/quote']

 

Miller's problem has been that he is unable to repeat his delivery consistently. Given the amount of time he has been around it is questionable whether he can ever work it out.

[mvp 78]

Miller's problem has been that he is unable to repeat his delivery consistently. Given the amount of time he has been around it is questionable whether he can ever work it out.

 

Notice the "if" I put in. I'm not sure he'll get there, but I'd feel more comfortable with Miller than Silva, Maine, or Cooke.

[Station 13]

I'd cut Doubront and Miller a little slack. If Miller worked out his control issues' date=' he'd be a fine 5 or 6. Doubront (and Tazawa) needs to have a strong ST. I remember Junichi pitching well against NYY 2 seasons ago. People were high on him then, don't know why people would be down on him now.[/quote']

 

Actually I'm very high on Tazawa. I rather have him start over all the projects.

[Station 13]

Miller's problem has been that he is unable to repeat his delivery consistently. Given the amount of time he has been around it is questionable whether he can ever work it out.

 

It has been 6 years now. Amazingly he's only 26 years old.

[Elktonnick]

Notice the "if" I put in. I'm not sure he'll get there' date=' but I'd feel more comfortable with Miller than Silva, Maine, or Cooke.[/quote']

 

I noticed. Heis inability to control his pitches is because he can't repeat his delivery consistently. That something that should have been worked out by now. I hasn't. I suspect if he doesn''get it this year he is done. IMO

[FredLynn]

I'd cut Doubront and Miller a little slack. If Miller worked out his control issues' date=' he'd be a fine 5 or 6. Doubront (and Tazawa) needs to have a strong ST. I remember Junichi pitching well against NYY 2 seasons ago. People were high on him then, don't know why people would be down on him now.[/quote']

 

I could see giving Doubront one more year to show us what he can do. He has not had much of a chance to do that yet, just what-35 innings? Fine. He gets a little slack, though watching him pitch he is not impressive at all.

Miller is another thing alltogether. He has had his chance. He has proven that he has no talent, though he has the rough tools to get the job done. Miller should not have been resigned by the team. His time is up now.

[User Name]

I judge talent by the bottom line: getting results. Think Miller has talent? Think again. Both Miller and Doubrant have some skills, but little talent. Here, for example, is one common definition of talent:

 

a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.

 

Show me the success Miller or Doubrant has achieved in MLB and I will concede the point to you.

Until then, you are wrong. Again.

 

Funny, apparently you don't know the actual definition of talent. Seems like "wrong" is the only street your GPS ever has you driving in.

 

Get over yourself, your opinion (and your subjective definition of talent) is not nearly as accurate as the opinion of those who do talent evaluations for a living. Or the "people who do this for a living know more than posters at Talksox" line only apply when it suits your argument?

 

Be consistent.

[FredLynn]

Funny, apparently you don't know the actual definition of talent. Seems like "wrong" is the only street your GPS ever has you driving in.

 

Get over yourself, your opinion (and your subjective definition of talent) is not nearly as accurate as the opinion of those who do talent evaluations for a living. Or the "people who do this for a living know more than posters at Talksox" line only apply when it suits your argument?

 

Be consistent.

 

Even if I don't know how to define "talent", I did look it up for you and posted it. As I said, some players have the tools (eg: good velocity), but lack the talent to succeed. Case in point: Miller. If a player has never shown results, how do you know they have "talent"? Talent to me implies results. Otherwise, its conjecture.

[User Name]

That makes no sense. Talent is talent. Results are results. You can have the talent without the ability to harness it. You're confusing one with the other.

 

Just to show you how misguided you are, it takes "talent" to be able to hit tape-measure homers like Willy Mo Pena, but it takes the ability to harness it (what Wily Mo hasn't been able to do) to have the desired results.

[FredLynn]

That makes no sense. Talent is talent. Results are results. You can have the talent without the ability to harness it. You're confusing one with the other.

 

Just to show you how misguided you are, it takes "talent" to be able to hit tape-measure homers like Willy Mo Pena, but it takes the ability to harness it (what Wily Mo hasn't been able to do) to have the desired results.

 

In other words, Pena didn't have enough TALENT to play in the major leagues very long. He had SOME talent, but not enough. Ability and talent are synonyms. Talent is a multifaceted quality. You can have the tools without the talent to succeed. If you do not prove yourself, IMO you are simply not talented enough to make the grade.

[User Name]

In other words' date=' Pena didn't have enough TALENT to play in the major leagues very long. He had SOME talent, but not enough. Ability and talent are synonyms. Talent is a multifaceted quality. You can have the tools without the talent to succeed. If you do not prove yourself, IMO you are simply not talented enough to make the grade.[/quote']

 

Ability and talent are the physical gifts. If you're trying to tell me that Wily Mo didn't have a ton of talent and ability, then you just don't know what you're talking about. He couldn't harness it, but the "people who make a living evaluating baseball players" sure thought, and still think, that he's a generational talent.

 

Doubront has the talent, people in the industry can see it. What he lacks is discipline, which is just as important as talent.

[seabeachfred]

We're getting nowhere with this guys and Boxy. We'll just to wait and see in ST what this band of no-accounts can do. I only hope that there are enough "B" and Split Squad games that these pitchers get a chance to show what they have, little though it may be. I think some of us are thinking in the back of our mind that maybe one or two will turn out to be the Red Sox version of Colon and Garcia, circa 2012.

Historically we have never seemed to have the luck the Yankees had in this regard and it is a tenuous way to head into the season, but since we have so many of these dregs trying out for the pitching staff, maybe this time the law of averages works in our favor and one of these guys actually rises to the occasion. Two would be better and almost a miracle.

[User Name]

I'm taking bets.

 

I have Padilla at 15/1 to pitch 150 IP with an ERA of 4.50 or less, and 3/1 to go insane and get into a fistfight with Salty.

 

I have Miller at 40/1 to contribute 140 IP and 2/1 to getting double suplexed by the manager and pitching coach on the mound after walking the bases loaded.

 

I have Cook at 30/1 to contribute 140 IP and 5/1 to getting injured while cutting a toenail.

 

I have Silva at 10/1 to contribute 170 IP and 2/1 to eating himself into a diabetic coma.

[jung]

Thank you User I actually needed some comic relief at this point.

[SCM33]

I'm taking bets.

 

I have Padilla at 15/1 to pitch 150 IP with an ERA of 4.50 or less, and 3/1 to go insane and get into a fistfight with Salty.

 

I have Miller at 40/1 to contribute 140 IP and 2/1 to getting double suplexed by the manager and pitching coach on the mound after walking the bases loaded.

 

I have Cook at 30/1 to contribute 140 IP and 5/1 to getting injured while cutting a toenail.

 

I have Silva at 10/1 to contribute 170 IP and 2/1 to eating himself into a diabetic coma.

 

Padilla will definitely fistfight Salty.....because Salty sucks.

 

Unfortunately for Padilla, Salty will kick his ass, because hes a monster.

[Emmz]

Nope.

(LOL)

 

No opinion, you straight up butchered it bro. Your definition is spot on, but how you used it in the next paragraph. Talented does not mean good, and that's where you're mixed up. Hate to have to teach a grown man an english lesson such as this, but you are wrong by your own definition's standards. Read it again. Next.

[Emmz]

In case that's too difficult, I'll do it for you. You either ignored the part about CAPACITY of achievement or success.

 

For example, there are plenty of talented athletes of all sports, and some of the most talented of them all even do not perform to expectations.

[Spudboy]

That we're even having to mention these names in conversation about a Boston Red Sox starting rotation is despicable. And it officially marks the end of our run as one of MLB's 'Big Dogs.' We're now a second tier AL team' date=' more closely aligned, in terms of talent, with the Jays, Guardians, and CHI Sox than we are the top level teams like the Yankees, Tigers, Rangers Angels, and Rays.[/quote']

 

I'm looking for a bridge to jump from.

 

Seriously, you can't actually believe your own words, can you?

 

This team is loaded with talent. There are holes in the roster (and questions a plenty) but to characterize the Sox as "second tier" is premature and I believe, inaccurate.

 

Jeeze.

[Spudboy]

I'd cut Doubront and Miller a little slack. If Miller worked out his control issues' date=' he'd be a fine 5 or 6. Doubront (and Tazawa) needs to have a strong ST. I remember Junichi pitching well against NYY 2 seasons ago. People were high on him then, [b']don't know why people would be down on him now.[/b]

 

Because people have a short memory. And they like to make bold unsubstantiated statements just to draw attention to themselves. One thing I have learned (it took a long time) is that when I have little or no knowledge of a subject, I shut the f*** up until I have learned enough about it to speak authoritatively about it. I guess some people have yet to learn this lesson.

[Spudboy]

I'm taking bets.

 

I have Padilla at 15/1 to pitch 150 IP with an ERA of 4.50 or less, and 3/1 to go insane and get into a fistfight with Salty.

 

I have Miller at 40/1 to contribute 140 IP and 2/1 to getting double suplexed by the manager and pitching coach on the mound after walking the bases loaded.

 

I have Cook at 30/1 to contribute 140 IP and 5/1 to getting injured while cutting a toenail.

 

I have Silva at 10/1 to contribute 170 IP and 2/1 to eating himself into a diabetic coma.

 

:lol::lol:

 

Good stuff.

[Elktonnick]

I'm looking for a bridge to jump from.

 

Seriously, you can't actually believe your own words, can you?

 

This team is loaded with talent. There are holes in the roster (and questions a plenty) but to characterize the Sox as "second tier" is premature and I believe, inaccurate.

 

Jeeze.

 

You may find interesting and even perhaps alarming but MLB radio referred to the Red Sox as a "second tier" club along with the Blue Jays.. Why because of the weakness of their pitching staff compared to top tier clubs. As to the top three starters Buccholtz is coming back from an injury which means there are questions. Beckett historically doesn't have two good years in a row. Lester tends to start the year slowly.

 

Hey we all can hope but the reality is despite their ability to score there are major questions about their pitching and defense especially on the left side.

[Bellhorn04]

You may find interesting and even perhaps alarming but MLB radio referred to the Red Sox as a "second tier" club along with the Blue Jays.. Why because of the weakness of their pitching staff compared to top tier clubs. As to the top three starters Buccholtz is coming back from an injury which means there are questions. Beckett historically doesn't have two good years in a row. Lester tends to start the year slowly.

 

Hey we all can hope but the reality is despite their ability to score there are major questions about their pitching and defense especially on the left side.

 

Pumpsie posted the Vegas odds for winning the 2012 World Series a few days ago:

 

Philly 6-1

NYY 13-2

LAA 13-2

Tex 9-1

Det 9-1

Bos 11-1

 

Also

 

TB 20-1

Tor 40-1

 

I think we can designate Vegas as being just as expert as MLB Radio...unless anyone has any objective evidence to show otherwise.

[User Name]

Muggah's and Elktonnick's analysis is biased, and therefore, unreliable.

[SoxSport]

Pumpsie posted the Vegas odds for winning the 2012 World Series a few days ago:

 

Philly 6-1

NYY 13-2

LAA 13-2

Tex 9-1

Det 9-1

Bos 11-1

 

Also

 

TB 20-1

Tor 40-1

 

I think we can designate Vegas as being just as expert as MLB Radio...unless anyone has any objective evidence to show otherwise.

 

ha. The Cardinals, last year's winner, aren't even mentioned. They'll miss Pujols less than you think, and are getting Wainright back. And then there's the Giants...

 

The big spenders get all the attention...

[Bellhorn04]

ha. The Cardinals, last year's winner, aren't even mentioned. They'll miss Pujols less than you think, and are getting Wainright back. And then there's the Giants...

 

The big spenders get all the attention...

 

Giants are at 16-1.

Cards are at 18-1.

[FredLynn]

Ability and talent are the physical gifts. If you're trying to tell me that Wily Mo didn't have a ton of talent and ability, then you just don't know what you're talking about. He couldn't harness it, but the "people who make a living evaluating baseball players" sure thought, and still think, that he's a generational talent.

 

Doubront has the talent, people in the industry can see it. What he lacks is discipline, which is just as important as talent.

 

Here is the issue: I do not believe that a player with tools possesses the talent or ability to become a ML player until he proves it. I think that discipline is part of talent; its a multifaceted package that leads to success. Same with any other profession. Once a person succeeds you can then look back and judge how much talent they have. Successful people must have a certain level of talent or they would not be successful. Until you PROVE you have talent, you are all talk.

[FredLynn]

No opinion' date=' you straight up butchered it bro. Your definition is spot on, but how you used it in the next paragraph. Talented does not mean good, and that's where you're mixed up. Hate to have to teach a grown man an english lesson such as this, but you are wrong by your own definition's standards. Read it again. Next.[/quote']

 

Do you actually speak English?