Peering into the Pitching Garbage Pail with your Pal, Pal

[FredLynn]

In case that's too difficult, I'll do it for you. You either ignored the part about CAPACITY of achievement or success.

 

For example, there are plenty of talented athletes of all sports, and some of the most talented of them all even do not perform to expectations.

 

Ever heard of the saying "You are as good as your record says you are"?

Thats true of players too.

Obviously you are having a hard time comprehending what I am saying. Perhaps a different language would help, but I will make one more stab at getting through the thickness of your skull.

What makes you think that anyone who has not achieved success is "talented"? Do you really think that because someone says a player is talented, they really are talented? Thats just talk. When you put your tools to use on the field, when you show perserverance and discipline to utiilize those tools (and having tools does not mean that you have talent), ONLY THEN can you look back and label someone as talented.

[Muggah]

I'm looking for a bridge to jump from.

 

Seriously, you can't actually believe your own words, can you?

 

This team is loaded with talent. There are holes in the roster (and questions a plenty) but to characterize the Sox as "second tier" is premature and I believe, inaccurate.

 

Jeeze.

 

I know it's tough for some people to see this team for what it is. But take a step back and try to look at this thing objectively. If you can do that you'll see that what I'm saying is spot on. Sorry.

[User Name]

Here is the issue: I do not believe that a player with tools possesses the talent or ability to become a ML player until he proves it. I think that discipline is part of talent; its a multifaceted package that leads to success. Same with any other profession. Once a person succeeds you can then look back and judge how much talent they have. Successful people must have a certain level of talent or they would not be successful. Until you PROVE you have talent' date=' you are all talk.[/quote']

 

Discipline is discipline. Talent is talent. What you believe does not dictate what things actually are.

[FredLynn]

Discipline is discipline. Talent is talent. What you believe does not dictate what things actually are.

 

Who decides what things "actually are"? You? Laughable, as you like to say.

Here is the bottom line, whether you like it or not: until someone PROVES that they possess talent they are all talk, their's or someone else's.

A great chef can get accolades, perhaps because of his reputation or his training, but if the food he produces tastes like s***, he has no talent as a chef.

A big strong race horse might be described as having talent, but until he wins races, he has nothing but talk.

And when you look at Andrew Miller, someone a lot of people think had POTENTIAL (different from talent), and see that he has failed over and over and over again, no one in their right mind can say that this player is talented, not yet anyway, and probably not ever.

I think you are getting confused with the difference between potential and talent.

[User Name]

This is not rocket science: Talent is the physical ability a player has to perform. A guy who throws 95 has talent, a guy with light-tower power has talent, a guy who has lightning speed and a cannon arm has talent. That doesn't mean they will harness it into production, but the talent is there.

 

I am confusing nothing. You simply refuse to acknowledge that your personal definition of talent is not accurate.

[FredLynn]

This is not rocket science: Talent is the physical ability a player has to perform. A guy who throws 95 has talent, a guy with light-tower power has talent, a guy who has lightning speed and a cannon arm has talent. That doesn't mean they will harness it into production, but the talent is there.

 

I am confusing nothing. You simply refuse to acknowledge that your personal definition of talent is not accurate.

 

Its not MY defininition. I am providing it for you (again) below. A guy who throws 95mph has a tool and potential. He has the talent to throw a baseball at 96mph, I will give you that. I thought we were talking about talent as it relates to playing baseball well; that IS what we are talking about, right? Whether or not that can be converted into talent to actually play baseball is another matter. Talent involves making use of your tools; it involves other factors like discipline and focus. Talent can only accurately be assessed retrospectively-otherwise Andrew Miller would still be considered "talented", as he was when he was drafted.

Here is the definition again:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

talent

Pronunciation: /ˈtalənt/

noun

 

1 [mass noun] natural aptitude or skill: he possesses more talent than any other player [count noun]: she displayed a talent for garden design

 

 

people possessing natural aptitude or skill:

 

Synonym=ability.

I am not going to agree that a player has any ability until he proves it to me.

[User Name]

That's your personal take on it. Good luck trying to convince anyone else of it though.

 

Notice that the very definition you copy/pasted speaks of natural aptitude. Just sayin'.

[FredLynn]

That's your personal take on it. Good luck trying to convince anyone else of it though.

 

Notice that the very definition you copy/pasted speaks of natural aptitude. Just sayin'.

 

No need to convince anyone else. Just presenting my opinion, which is that just because someone can hit a baseball 450 feet or throw at 95 mph does not mean that they are a talented ML baseball player.

Off to the daily workout.................and GO PATRIOTS!!!

[jung]

Wow....Come onnnnnnnnn Spring Traning!!!!

[seabeachfred]

Wow....Come onnnnnnnnn Spring Traning!!!!

 

Jung---we haven't anything to worry about concerning things getting hot on this board so long as no one means anything personal or someone doesn't take anything personal. Easier said than done I know but this is a forum and opinions are going to vary and some of us like Pumpsie and User are going to be advocates for their point of view just like the rest of us are. As for your bringing on ST you can be things will be just as hot here then as it is now, especially when we start zeroing in on some of those "pitchers" we signed this off season. I felt so confident when ST began last year and now I have some misgivings about how this season is going to go down since so much as to go right if we are to make a real move this season. Of course, the one thing that would set me off is if when ST begins and Varitek and Wakefield are there in Fort Myers, and I just hope they are not invited and do not show up.

[VA Sox Fan]

Then 4 Musketeers. LMAO.

 

Glad I am not the only one who cannot take them seriously.

[mvp 78]

I know it's tough for some people to see this team for what it is. But take a step back and try to look at this thing objectively. If you can do that you'll see that what I'm saying is spot on. Sorry.

 

Looking objectively: 2011 - historic collapse, Lackey was worst pitcher in Sox history, only miss playoffs by one game

 

2012 - Virtually the same roster except for Scutaro, 4th and 5th starters will be better than last year (at the very least no worse)

 

Objective conclusion - playoff contention

[Palodios]

Looking objectively: 2011 - historic collapse, Lackey was worst pitcher in Sox history, only miss playoffs by one game

 

2012 - Virtually the same roster except for Scutaro, 4th and 5th starters will be better than last year (at the very least no worse)

 

Objective conclusion - playoff contention

 

+1

[User Name]

Looking objectively: 2011 - historic collapse, Lackey was worst pitcher in Sox history, only miss playoffs by one game

 

2012 - Virtually the same roster except for Scutaro, 4th and 5th starters will be better than last year (at the very least no worse)

 

Objective conclusion - playoff contention

 

Best post of 2012 so far.

[FredLynn]

Looking objectively: 2011 - historic collapse, Lackey was worst pitcher in Sox history, only miss playoffs by one game

 

2012 - Virtually the same roster except for Scutaro, 4th and 5th starters will be better than last year (at the very least no worse)

 

Objective conclusion - playoff contention

 

No one disagrees with this.

Its whether or not we can contend for a ring that is the issue. I don't think we have that kind of team.

[User Name]

Once you get to the playoffs, you have pretty much the same chance as everyone else to win a ring.

 

Besides, that makes no sense. Since this team has three really good starters and an explosive offense, it's made to win a short series. You're missing the forest because of the trees.

[mvp 78]

No one disagrees with this.

Its whether or not we can contend for a ring that is the issue. I don't think we have that kind of team.

 

BS, enough people on here have blown the "playing for 3rd place" horn.

[MANNYHOF24]

I know it's tough for some people to see this team for what it is. But take a step back and try to look at this thing objectively. If you can do that you'll see that what I'm saying is spot on. Sorry.

 

I think your the one who needs to take a step back and really look at this team objectively.

 

On paper this team is one of the most talented squads in the game. Period.

 

Sure there are question marks, but what team doesn't have question marks? The Yankees HAVE HUGE question marks. Can Pienda/Kuroda pitch in the AL East? Will this be the year that MO finally looses it? Will Jeters skills continue to diminish in the field and at the plate? Will Granderson come way back down to earth this year? Will Teixeria's trend of sinking BA continue? Will Ian Nova continue to develop into a solid 2 man.

 

I could do this for every team. To sit here right now and say a team that won 90 games last year (we all know it should have been more) that should be healthier (I choose to believe that we will be luckier this year) is not a top tier potential is foolish. We have 3 of the best pitchers in the American Leauge in our rotation. We have in my mind a top 3 AL offense ( could easily be # 1, if things break the right way).

[seabeachfred]

Once you get to the playoffs, you have pretty much the same chance as everyone else to win a ring.

 

Besides, that makes no sense. Since this team has three really good starters and an explosive offense, it's made to win a short series. You're missing the forest because of the trees.

 

True UN but do we have the kind of team that can get to the Playoffs after 162 games with some of the question marks we still have----and will our three good starters be healthy all year and ready to take on such a challenge? That to me is the big question and I keep coming back that we can do it but just about everything has to go right for us to win the division and get home field advantage. Having a much better field manager who will not cost us 10-12 games a year is a big step in the right direction.

[seabeachfred]

I think your the one who needs to take a step back and really look at this team objectively.

 

On paper this team is one of the most talented squads in the game. Period.

 

Sure there are question marks, but what team doesn't have question marks? The Yankees HAVE HUGE question marks. Can Pienda/Kuroda pitch in the AL East? Will this be the year that MO finally looses it? Will Jeters skills continue to diminish in the field and at the plate? Will Granderson come way back down to earth this year? Will Teixeria's trend of sinking BA continue? Will Ian Nova continue to develop into a solid 2 man.

 

I could do this for every team. To sit here right now and say a team that won 90 games last year (we all know it should have been more) that should be healthier (I choose to believe that we will be luckier this year) is not a top tier potential is foolish. We have 3 of the best pitchers in the American Leauge in our rotation. We have in my mind a top 3 AL offense ( could easily be # 1, if things break the right way).

 

Our team has been star crossed the past three seasons and we sure as hell had better be luckier than in those three years. What you're saying is that if things break right for us we could be in a good position to go far. I totally agree with that but for that to happen our three top pitchers must stay healthy and win big, and go deeper into games than they did last season. The bullpen has to step up and be a lock down unit, the hitters must hit as a team and we cannot afford to have two or three of them suffer down years. It is all possible but lady luck would be a big help.

 

Of course, luck is the residue of design and I wonder if Cherington has designed the team for such a run of success????? We'll have to wait and find out.

[User Name]

True UN but do we have the kind of team that can get to the Playoffs after 162 games with some of the question marks we still have----and will our three good starters be healthy all year and ready to take on such a challenge? That to me is the big question and I keep coming back that we can do it but just about everything has to go right for us to win the division and get home field advantage. Having a much better field manager who will not cost us 10-12 games a year is a big step in the right direction.

 

I tend to agree that, as currently constructed, this team would have a tougher time getting to the playoffs than succeeding there.

[User Name]

I think your the one who needs to take a step back and really look at this team objectively.

 

On paper this team is one of the most talented squads in the game. Period.

 

Sure there are question marks, but what team doesn't have question marks? The Yankees HAVE HUGE question marks. Can Pienda/Kuroda pitch in the AL East? Will this be the year that MO finally looses it? Will Jeters skills continue to diminish in the field and at the plate? Will Granderson come way back down to earth this year? Will Teixeria's trend of sinking BA continue? Will Ian Nova continue to develop into a solid 2 man.

 

I could do this for every team. To sit here right now and say a team that won 90 games last year (we all know it should have been more) that should be healthier (I choose to believe that we will be luckier this year) is not a top tier potential is foolish. We have 3 of the best pitchers in the American Leauge in our rotation. We have in my mind a top 3 AL offense ( could easily be # 1, if things break the right way).

 

Teixeira's downward trend is not only in BA, but also in OBP and OPS.

 

As for the Sox, it's probably not so much about luck as it is about changes to the coaching, medical and managing staff. This model of the Red Sox will be very different to the 2011 one.

[mvp 78]

True UN but do we have the kind of team that can get to the Playoffs after 162 games with some of the question marks we still have----and will our three good starters be healthy all year and ready to take on such a challenge? That to me is the big question and I keep coming back that we can do it but just about everything has to go right for us to win the division and get home field advantage. Having a much better field manager who will not cost us 10-12 games a year is a big step in the right direction.

 

So you're projecting a 100 win season then? Or do you want to adjust your Francona foibles comment?

[Emmz]

Ever heard of the saying "You are as good as your record says you are"?

Thats true of players too.

Obviously you are having a hard time comprehending what I am saying. Perhaps a different language would help, but I will make one more stab at getting through the thickness of your skull.

What makes you think that anyone who has not achieved success is "talented"? Do you really think that because someone says a player is talented, they really are talented? Thats just talk. When you put your tools to use on the field, when you show perserverance and discipline to utiilize those tools (and having tools does not mean that you have talent), ONLY THEN can you look back and label someone as talented.

 

Unsubstantial cliche. Trying to dispute the definition you just posted. LAWL. All I can really say.

[Emmz]

I know it's tough for some people to see this team for what it is. But take a step back and try to look at this thing objectively. If you can do that you'll see that what I'm saying is spot on. Sorry.

 

You know, every insufferable pessimist whiner thinks they're "realists". Give it a rest bro.

[RedSoxNC84]

Even if Miller works out his control issues, I still don't think he would be a viable option for a starting role. I think he could be considered a great bullpen arm, and MAYBE even a swingman. I don't think he could make it much farther in the bigs when the lineup gets more than a look or two at him.

 

Doubront on the other hand, I think he has a lot of potential for talent, he just needs to stop being lazy.

 

Tazawa I think would be a great option, it's too bad he spent a good chunk of his development time out with TJ, but I think he has the stuff to make a strong comeback.

 

Padilla will probably lose his s*** and start trying to take heads off with the new found velocity he has.

 

As far as all the other depth options, Cook seems to be the only standout. Mortensen will probably just be a bullpen arm. Silva and Maine may not even get a callup after spring training.

[FredLynn]

BS' date=' enough people on here have blown the "playing for 3rd place" horn.[/quote']

 

I said COMPETE for a playoff spot, not be awarded one. We will COMPETE for second place, most likely, and COMPETE for a spot in October. Then we will be eliminated rapidly.

[FredLynn]

Unsubstantial cliche. Trying to dispute the definition you just posted. LAWL. All I can really say.

 

Sorry you are having such a hard time with this concept. After all, it does require some actual thinking, a capacity you obviously lack.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Looking objectively: 2011 - historic collapse, Lackey was worst pitcher in Sox history, only miss playoffs by one game

 

2012 - Virtually the same roster except for Scutaro, 4th and 5th starters will be better than last year (at the very least no worse)

 

Objective conclusion - playoff contention

 

Thank you. This.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I said COMPETE for a playoff spot' date=' not be awarded one. We will COMPETE for second place, most likely, and COMPETE for a spot in October.[b'] Then we will be eliminated rapidly[/b].

 

Why is that? What if in we end up being really hot September and it carries on into the playoffs?(Cardinals say hi) User Name? I believe said once your in the playoffs it's a toss up. I absolutely agree. This team as constructed is not that bad. Plus, who said we probably won't acquire a pitcher during the season? I swear it's sometimes hard to call you guys fans when you ALWAYS think of the worst possible scenario. Have some faith in your team.