2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

Could be that AdGon suffered from a lack of conditioning in ST as well. In fact, maybe the September collapse was the result of inadequate conditioning to build endurance over the full season. I go back to the bench coach--Brad Mills-- two years ago. I understand he ran a tight ship in ST, and maybe that was missing the last two years with Hale. That will change with Valentine for sure. That's probably why he is here.

 

The pundits are playing up Tampa Bay and playing down the Red Sox this year. Last year, it took a complete collapse by the Sox in September for the Rays to make the playoffs. The Sox would have made the playoffs easily by just playing .500 ball in September. What's different this year? Well, the Sox have a new closer in Bailey/Melancon, maybe a new starter in Bard, a new SS in Aviles/Iglesias and a healthy Buchholz. Plus a new manager who figures to get a strong April start out of a better conditioned team, with more emphasis on fundamentals. Tampa Bay hasn't changed much--still relying on pitching. I give the edge to the Red Sox, assuming they play up to their potential and stay healthy. In fact, I think they'll be right there with NY, which has to hope their pitching matches last year's good fortune, Granderson repeats his slugging, and Jeter/ARod can do it one more time.

 

Right on both posts Sox Sport. Anyone who still insists that the team was prepared to start the season last year must have some rocks loose somewhere. The team was NOT prepared and the fault lays with Francona and Epstein. Finally, Tito's babying of his players blew up in his face; surprised it didn't happen sooner, but the team has been in a decline since he helped them blow the pennant in 2008.

 

As for this year, there must not be any lollygagging down in Fort Myers. There must be plenty of "B' games to wade through all those dreg pitchers we signed this winter in hopes that one or two of them help us catch lightning in a bottle. As for the players not happy with the way the training schedule is set up, that is being to arduous, f*** 'em!!!!!!!!!! It is high time they started earning the money they're making and doing right by their fans who died numerous deaths this winter after witnessing their disgraceful performance during that choke-laden September. Any team could slump at the end but not as badly as the Red Sox did. They simply collapsed---and consider this. A good team does not start the season with a 2-10 record unless they were unprepared and uninspired to begin with. Remember, too, that we got off to a similar miserable start back in 2009, a season where we could have won the division had we not gotten off the floor so poorly and then collapsed later in the season as well. Valentine must push, push and push and get the team ready to compete from Day One this season. Thank God he is now the manager instead of the disgraced, fired and still unemployed FrancoMa.

[seabeachfred]

Even if they won 2 extra games in April' date=' they weren't winning anything in the playoffs, not with the way they played down the stretch.[/quote']

 

If there was anything for Red Sox fans to glean from our collapse last September was the "consolation", if that is what we could call it, that we weren't going anywhere in the Playoffs. Between injuries, off seasons, miserable pitching and an inept manager who lost the team, we were headed home very quickly, maybe even a three and out.

 

That is why I am already getting frosted hearing these reports that the players are already griping about how rigorous the ST sessions are going to be. They should keep their mouths shut and partake with all the enthusiasm they can muster. They not only owe to themselves to regain their pride but they owe to the most rabid fans in baseball who were both angered and embarrassed by what they saw of their team last September.

 

It sometimes makes me wonder if we take the losses even harder than the players do.

[seabeachfred]

Silence' date=' in this case, most likely means they're both planning on showing up.[/quote']

 

They're showing up all right---and I wonder if the rotten and mendacious Lucchino will try and soft pedal their appearance by saying something like...."WELL WE KNEW DEEP DOWN THAT RED SOX FANS REALLY WANTED THESE TWO GUYS ON THE TEAM SO HERE THEY ARE when in fact most of us want no part of them and firmly believe that we need to move on. This has the makings of something ending very ugly, especially is Valentine decides to shine them on and they go running to Lucchino, or lobby the pitching staff or try to cop a plea to the media. This should never have been allowed to happen. It should have been made clear to both these selfish bums that it was time for them to move on and that if they wanted to play they needed to do it elsewhere. Of course, there was no elsewhere because neither one had as much as one offer from any other team. That should have spoken volumes to Lucchino but apparently it fell on deaf ears.

[seabeachfred]

I agree. We need to be prepared at all times. Come into camp ready to work and do everything to be prepared for opening day. You do make good points. I am just looking for more consistency. It is a very very long season. If we are one of the most consistent teams from game 1 to game 162' date=' our chances of being successful are that much better. I just hope Bobby V can help prepare this team better, that way we are ready for the entire season. I am looking for a stronger start. On paper people we may not look as good as the Yankees or Rays (pitching wise), but if we go out and execute and don't take any days off, we will be able to compete with both teams.[/quote']

 

Well you're down in Fort Myers so you will get an earlier report on things than we do; maybe you can keep us informed as to what you're seeing and what's your take on things down there. First of all as you mentioned, there has to be a strong commitment to get ready and work their asses off to get in shape, and the gripes and groans about how hard the training is should be buttoned post-haste. You can besure Bobby V. WILL prepare the team better but it would be even more to our liking if the players bought into it and realized what's at stake this season. Last year we were favored by just about everyone to win the division and go on to the WS to face the Phillies. Maybe this year as underdogs we will over-achieve, win the division and to the WS we didn't make it to last year.

 

For that to happen they must not only stay healthy but must commit themselves to make amends for last year by taking it out on their tormentors---namely, just about every team they face.

[seabeachfred]

The Rays slow start shows that there can be slow starts for no apparent reason. The Red Sox first six games were on the road against teams that got off to very hot starts.

 

I'm just quibbling really...I can't prove anything, I just think people jumped on the bad spring training as an easy explanation for the bad start and I'm not really convinced of it. As for September, that's a different story. There was definitely something serriously wrong there. And I do think Francona had to pay the price for it.

 

You are quibbling Bob and deep down you know it. We went through all this crap back on Sawxheads and it was one of the reasons why the board split up. You were a Francona man and refused then to admit that the team was not prepared to start the season. You were wrong.....they were not prepared to start the season. They were lousy in ST with that 12 game losing streak, Tito was high on prescription drugs and going through a bad diviorce and his head was up his rectum. If you still cannot come to grips with the fact that we were not ready for the season you have learned very little from last year's collapse.

 

As for September?????? Well let me tell you what I think and thought all along. The roots of our collapse that month were planted in ST and opening weeks of the season. Jog your memory....remember someone on July 26th of last year wrote.."THIS TEAM HAS PROVEN IT IS VERY CAPABLE OF GOING INTO THE TANK AND WHEN THEY DO THEY WILL COLLAPSE TOTALLY. Remember that? It got a lot of laughs from you and others, but some of us didn't laugh, did we? In the end, only two of your group had the guts to admit that you were wrong and we were spot-on right. The rest of you headed for the hills.

 

Yes, we were NOT prepared for the season last year and it came and bit us on the ass when the timing was the worst. Valentine will not only not allow that to happen but he won't cost us those games that Francona routinely lost for us every season.

[Muggah]

They're showing up all right---and I wonder if the rotten and mendacious Lucchino will try and soft pedal their appearance by saying something like...."WELL WE KNEW DEEP DOWN THAT RED SOX FANS REALLY WANTED THESE TWO GUYS ON THE TEAM SO HERE THEY ARE when in fact most of us want no part of them and firmly believe that we need to move on. This has the makings of something ending very ugly' date=' especially is Valentine decides to shine them on and they go running to Lucchino, or lobby the pitching staff or try to cop a plea to the media. This should never have been allowed to happen. It should have been made clear to both these selfish bums that it was time for them to move on and that if they wanted to play they needed to do it elsewhere. Of course, there was no elsewhere because neither one had as much as one offer from any other team. That should have spoken volumes to Lucchino but apparently it fell on deaf ears.[/quote']

 

The worst part of them showing up, IMO, Fred, is that when they do they are going to be the lead story for several days. And that's no way to go about starting this new chapter in Sox baseball--which is supposed to be our top priority this year. These two showing up will overshadow everything, becoming a major distraction in the process and acting as a major speed bump in Valentine's attempt to turn things around. It's just wrong, on so many levels---and I blame Larry for not having the damn balls to tell these two it's time to move on. The Yankees do this with class and dignity all the time. It's a shame our ownership group isn't classy enough to follow their lead.

[Bellhorn04]

You are quibbling Bob and deep down you know it. We went through all this crap back on Sawxheads and it was one of the reasons why the board split up. You were a Francona man and refused then to admit that the team was not prepared to start the season. You were wrong.....they were not prepared to start the season. They were lousy in ST with that 12 game losing streak, Tito was high on prescription drugs and going through a bad diviorce and his head was up his rectum. If you still cannot come to grips with the fact that we were not ready for the season you have learned very little from last year's collapse.

 

Fred, I just can't get as emotional about it anymore. Maybe I've kind of distanced myself from it a bit. I've been following this team for 40+ years and it's taken its toll.

 

Maybe they weren't prepared to start the season. I will readily admit it could be true. But then they played .650 ball for a few months. It was just a really bizarre season. And I have said repeatedly that it was Francona's time to go. But yes, I was a Francona man.

[User Name]

Agent Barry Meister didn't comment on whether Tim Wakefield will accept a minor league deal from the Red Sox, Gordon Edes of ESPNBoston.com tweets. It doesn't appear that Wakefield will accept the offer, Edes writes.

 

[Laser Show]

Gary Carter died today at 57.

[Bellhorn04]

Gary Carter died today at 57.

 

Very sorry to hear it. One year older than me.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, I just can't get as emotional about it anymore. Maybe I've kind of distanced myself from it a bit. I've been following this team for 40+ years and it's taken its toll.

 

Maybe they weren't prepared to start the season. I will readily admit it could be true. But then they played .650 ball for a few months. It was just a really bizarre season. And I have said repeatedly that it was Francona's time to go. But yes, I was a Francona man.

 

Thank God you're one cool headed Canadian instead of a hot blooded American Dago like me Bob. You're probably better off if you can distance yourself from stuff like this and I meant nothing personal when I answered your post except to vent frustration as to what went down last September. I was walking the floor at night last September during my nightly potty break. Every loss bit harder into my soul; it was murder. I do think Red Sox fans who go back 30, 40 and 50 years have a better handle on things than someone who came on board within the last ten or 15 years, 11 plus for me. Let's keep our fingers crossed that this year somehow brings glad tidings to all of us.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[seabeachfred]

Gary Carter died today at 57.

 

This is indeed miserable news and I think for me it does put things in perspective. Gary was a total high class person with a smile and good word for everyone. He grew up in Fullerton where my daughter and son-in-law live and he was quite a player at Sunny Hills High School. He was also my favorite player on the Mets when I followed that team before becoming a convert here, and think I was more a Carter and Hernandez fan than a Mets one.

 

For the record I cheered my ass off during that 1986 World Series, which I suppose could get me a suspension or a ban here, but when I see tapes of that series today I get sick to my stomach. Try figuring that one out.

[Bellhorn04]

Thank God you're one cool headed Canadian instead of a hot blooded American Dago like me Bob. You're probably better off if you can distance yourself from stuff like this and I meant nothing personal when I answered your post except to vent frustration as to what went down last September. I was walking the floor at night last September during my nightly potty break. Every loss bit harder into my soul; it was murder. I do think Red Sox fans who go back 30' date=' 40 and 50 years have a better handle on things than someone who came on board within the last ten or 15 years, 11 plus for me. Let's keep our fingers crossed that this year somehow brings glad tidings to all of us.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:[/quote']

 

Well, Fred, like you I still suffer a lot during the games. When the games are over I think I can put it in more perspective now.

 

We have our differences but we're all Sox nuts and that's why we're here.

 

Like you say, fingers crossed for a good season in 2012.

[jacksonianmarch]

Fred, let me say to you that no matter how big a sox fan you think you are, if you at one time rooted against the sox in a world series, then you cannot understand what it is like here. I am a Yankee fan in Red Sox territory. The people here do not consider sox fandom their baseball preference, it is a way of life. You are born into it. And even though the sox have become corny in their BS to try and get more pink hats to throw their money away, the true die hards treat every dead season as if a relative just died. After the sox lost in 03, people didnt talk to me for a month solid. Nobody talked, everyone was in mourning, everywhere was quiet and nobody seemed happy at all. It's a different way of life. Different than anything I have ever seen anywhere. Yankee fandom is engrained similarly, but the level of dedication in the Mass area is a little higher. I don't think you could understand that if you went into your late adulthood rooting against them

[User Name]

Brb, need to get some popcorn.

[FredLynn]

Fred' date=' let me say to you that no matter how big a sox fan you think you are, if you at one time rooted against the sox in a world series, then you cannot understand what it is like here. I am a Yankee fan in Red Sox territory. The people here do not consider sox fandom their baseball preference, it is a way of life. You are born into it. And even though the sox have become corny in their BS to try and get more pink hats to throw their money away, the true die hards treat every dead season as if a relative just died. After the sox lost in 03, people didnt talk to me for a month solid. Nobody talked, everyone was in mourning, everywhere was quiet and nobody seemed happy at all. It's a different way of life. Different than anything I have ever seen anywhere. Yankee fandom is engrained similarly, but the level of dedication in the Mass area is a little higher. I don't think you could understand that if you went into your late adulthood rooting against them[/quote']

 

Thats simply wrong, with all due respect. I have been a Sox fan for over 50 years and Fred is every bit the Sox fan I am. One's fervor as a fan cannot be measured by the length of time one is a fan.

Besides, how do you quantify "how much" of a Sox fan anyone is? There is no objective measure.

[jacksonianmarch]

Thats simply wrong, with all due respect. I have been a Sox fan for over 50 years and Fred is every bit the Sox fan I am. One's fervor as a fan cannot be measured by the length of time one is a fan.

Besides, how do you quantify "how much" of a Sox fan anyone is? There is no objective measure.

 

There is no objective measure, you are correct. But maybe living in Cali hasnt given you the experience you get here. It's different.

[mvp 78]

9 year old me wants to kick 45 year old him in the nuts.

 

35 year old me just doesn't care enough.

[FredLynn]

There is no objective measure' date=' you are correct. But maybe living in Cali hasnt given you the experience you get here. It's different.[/quote']

 

I grew up in Massachusetts. I was there for 26 years.

[jacksonianmarch]

I grew up in Massachusetts. I was there for 26 years.

 

Maybe the last 2 decades in Cali has softened you up a bit

[FredLynn]

Maybe the last 2 decades in Cali has softened you up a bit

 

Three decades, but who's counting.

I still watch nearly every game on MLB.TV. Guess I qualify as a legit fan. Not that it really matters in the long run.

[SoxSport]

For those who were at Spring Training to watch them go through the motions with almost no enthusiasm and certainly no hard work' date=' most believe that there was a carryover effect, especially in light of the lackluster play in the first two weeks. The Rays slow start has nothing to do with the causality of the Red Sox slow start.[/quote']

 

My impression is the Red Sox management used spring training primarily to look at their entire roster, including many minor league players. The regular lineup rarely played a game together--except maybe the last few days heading north. With all the changes made last year, I think the regulars didn't get enough pre-season play together, which may have contributed to their slow start. Plus some may not have been adequately conditioned.

 

I would expect this year to be different. I think Valentine will go with the regulars from the getgo, and get them to win some games down there. Crawford's injury is unfortunate, because they need his presence to establish the lineup. I expect him to bat 2nd, but would not be surprised if he bats leadoff --when he returns. It's possible Ellsbury becomes the no.3 hitter. What Valentine does with the top 3 batters in the lineup, including Pedey, will be interesting. Also, what happens at SS and catcher. Whether Iglesias gets a good look. And whether Lavarnway can steal the catcher's job with his bat.

[seabeachfred]

Fred' date=' let me say to you that no matter how big a sox fan you think you are, if you at one time rooted against the sox in a world series, then you cannot understand what it is like here. I am a Yankee fan in Red Sox territory. The people here do not consider sox fandom their baseball preference, it is a way of life. You are born into it. And even though the sox have become corny in their BS to try and get more pink hats to throw their money away, the true die hards treat every dead season as if a relative just died. After the sox lost in 03, people didnt talk to me for a month solid. Nobody talked, everyone was in mourning, everywhere was quiet and nobody seemed happy at all. It's a different way of life. Different than anything I have ever seen anywhere. Yankee fandom is engrained similarly, but the level of dedication in the Mass area is a little higher. I don't think you could understand that if you went into your late adulthood rooting against them[/quote']

 

Since I like you Jacko I will not say you are full of s***, but you are as wrong as you can be and if you knew me personally you'd do a hasty verbal retreat in a hurry. If anyone doesn't get it it could be you, a Yankee fan because no matter how many Red Sox fans you know and hang out with you simply cannot know what it is like to be one because you aren't one. You can't know how it is until you become one as I did. Get in touch with the word CONVERT. A convert to any cause is usually a true believer and therefore more ardent, passionate and rabid than the normal adherents to a cause. This does not mean that I put myself in a class above MVP, 700, SCM, iortiz or User and I want to make that clear this minute. It does mean that as a convert I live and die with this team and anyone who knows me would laugh at your assertion. Please for your sake do not partake in any such silly missives again. You just don't know.

[Muggah]

Fred' date=' let me say to you that no matter how big a sox fan you think you are, if you at one time rooted against the sox in a world series, then you cannot understand what it is like here. I am a Yankee fan in Red Sox territory. The people here do not consider sox fandom their baseball preference, it is a way of life. You are born into it. And even though the sox have become corny in their BS to try and get more pink hats to throw their money away, the true die hards treat every dead season as if a relative just died. After the sox lost in 03, people didnt talk to me for a month solid. Nobody talked, everyone was in mourning, everywhere was quiet and nobody seemed happy at all. It's a different way of life. Different than anything I have ever seen anywhere. Yankee fandom is engrained similarly, but the level of dedication in the Mass area is a little higher. I don't think you could understand that if you went into your late adulthood rooting against them[/quote']

 

You could not be more wrong, IMO. Fred's one of the most passionate Sox fans I've ever met.

[mvp 78]

What Jacko said was pretty spot on in his summation of local fans. It is different in MA than in CA. While a Yankee fan talking s*** to you in a Target in Manhattan Beach is annoying, it just doesn't compare to the year round baseball culture in MA. If you take Fred out of the equation, the face of his argument rings true.

[a700hitter]

Sox passion has nothing to do with living in the area. I have been a crazy fan for 45 years and never lived within 200 miles of Boston. I have a number of friends and family and co-workers who feel the same way.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sox passion has nothing to do with living in the area. I have been a crazy fan for 45 years and never lived within 200 miles of Boston. I have a number of friends and family and co-workers who feel the same way.

 

It takes a special breed of fan to root in enemy territory. I know, I am in enemy territory for life.

[a700hitter]

It takes a special breed of fan to root in enemy territory. I know' date=' I am in enemy territory for life.[/quote']You are right about Boston. The population there is more focused on the Sox than NYers are focused on any of its sports teams. I guess in part it can be attributed to the fact that Boston is much smaller than NY.

[FredLynn]

It takes a special breed of fan to root in enemy territory. I know' date=' I am in enemy territory for life.[/quote']

 

I cannot imagine how tough it must be to be a Sox fan and live in NYC as some here do.

[Muggah]

WEEI's Rob Bradford is reporting that Tim Wakefield will be holding a press conference at 5PM in Fort Meyers to announce his retirement.