2011 Trade Deadline Thread

[SoxSport]

If Theo is cooking that scenaio' date=' I would name him Theo "the Godfather" Epstain ... [/quote']

 

yeah.. Theo is going to keep spending the taxpayers' millions on starting pitchers until he gets it right.

[example1]

Theo isn't going to pay that kind of talent for Jimenez. We've already blown up the farm system twice in the last 2 years. He believes in building from the farm' date=' he's not going to do that indefinitely.[/quote']

 

Think about it this way:

 

1) Middlebrooks is arguably the THIRD best player from the Sox 2007 draft, behind Rizzo (Gonzalez) and Hagadone (Martinez). Lavarnway is probably the THIRD best player from his draft 2008 too, behind Kelly (Gonzalez) and Westmoreland ( ), arguibly just ahead of Weiland.

 

They aren't diamonds in the rough, they are products of a really good scouting program and lots of $$ thrown into developing amateur players. That isn't going to stop.

 

2) They had a remarkable 2010 and 2011 draft, simply in terms of restocking the lower tiers of the system. They have Kalish ready to come off of injury, nobody is talking about trading Ranaudo and they just drafted Barnes, another really good college arm.

 

I'm not saying that losing Lavarnway or Middlebrooks wouldn't sting, but they would probably get over it with a WS or two.

 

3) WAR for starting pitchers: 2009-2011

 

Verlander: 19.7

Halladay: 19.3

Lee: 17.5

Sabathia: 17.0

Greinke: 16.9

Lincecum: 16.8

Hernandez: 16.7

Haren: 15.1

Weaver: 14.9

Jimenez: 14.5

Lester: 13.9

Kershaw: 13.6

Johnson: 13.6

Carpenter: 12.2

Hamels: 12.0

Wainwright: 11.8

 

That's obviously a list of the best pitchers in the game, right?

 

He's 11th among all pitchers in strikeouts during that time (the top 10 are all on that list). He's got the exact same WHIP as Jon Lester (1.22). During that same span Jimenez has the hardest average FB (95.5) among pitchers with 500 IP or more, ahead of Verlander, Edwin Jackson, Felix Hernandez and CC Sabathia, among others.

 

I can see why Theo has been in on it from the beginning if he would be giving up a few of the 3rd best picks from drafts 4 years ago to get one of the game's best arms for a few seasons.

[AtWork]

The Tigers contacted the Rockies Thursday to discuss possible deals, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. Colorado is also discussing Jimenez with the Yankees, Red Sox, Reds and Guardians, according to FOX. Names of interest to the Rockies: Kyle Weiland and Will Middlebrooks of the Red Sox, Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, and Jesus Montero of the Yankees, Jacob Turner of the Tigers, Yonder Alonso and a Major League starting pitcher from the Reds, and Drew Pomeranz of the Guardians.

 

I get the feeling that Bedard is our favorite target. But if things fall through on that front, I imagine we'd give up Weiland and Middlebrooks for Jimenez.

[AtWork]

According to a couple of opposing general managers the Red Sox have been been "all over the map" concerning what they're trying to obtain before Sunday's trade deadline.

 

"We've heard they're trying to to get a lefty reliever, a righthanded hitter or a fourth or fifth starter," said one American League executive. "The Red Sox will get someone. They always do."

 

On the lefty reliever front, we've reported for the last week about the saturation of White Sox scouts watching the Red Sox' major league team and farm system. The White Sox would love to get the Red Sox interested in lefty reliever Matt Thornton, who has two more years reaming on his contract at $5.5 million per year.

 

The Red sox will be scouting Seattle lefty Erik Bedard tomorrow night, as he returns from the disabled list from a knee injury. The Mariners are also offering Jason Vargas as a possible fifth starter solution to the Red Sox.

 

Veteran Kevin Millwood remains in Pawtucket, but the Red Sox don't seem to view him as a solution.

 

The latest from Cafardo.

[redsoxbeatz]

Ubaldo now would be amazing. Felix during the off-season would be extraordinarily phenomenal.

 

Bedard could be a good addition. He is averaging exactly 6.0 innings per start this season and average 5.8 over his career. Average of 3.00 ERA over his career, too. Could be good for the season.

 

C'mon Bucholz!!

 

Lucky post .406

[jacksonianmarch]

I get the feeling that Bedard is our favorite target. But if things fall through on that front' date=' I imagine we'd give up Weiland and Middlebrooks for Jimenez.[/quote']

 

Weiland and Middlebrooks? If what they're asking for is accurate, that'll get the phone hung up real quick

[mvp 78]

Weiland and Middlebrooks? If what they're asking for is accurate' date=' that'll get the phone hung up real quick[/quote']

 

Mike Schmidt couldn't hold Middlebrook's jock.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Middlebrooks looks like he's going to be an absolute stud. Kid has all star written all over him, and he's made enormous steps this year. I know everyone thinks we're set at 3B because we have Youk over there, but I disagree. Youkilis seems like he is always banged up and will soon become a full time DH for this team. Ortiz has about 2 years left with this club, and then Youk moves to DH and Middlebrooks becomes the future at 3B. Give him a couple years to learn his plate discipline better, and he will become a huge asset.

 

The more I've thought about it, the more I'm on board with going after Bedard. Jimenez would be a big improvement, but I don't know if he would be that much better than Bedard that you could justify the extra prospects. But what's even more important is that you save your stud prospects for a bigger trade this offseason, be it for Felix, Kershaw, Weaver, Wainwright, etc. Solidify the rotation this year by making a smaller move (Doubront + Chiang for Bedard), and save your blue chips for this offseason.

[SoxFanForsyth]

yeah.. Theo is going to keep spending the taxpayers' millions on starting pitchers until he gets it right.

 

The taxpayers money?? Does the government now subsidize any poor signings that the Red Sox make?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Weiland and Middlebrooks? If what they're asking for is accurate' date=' that'll get the phone hung up real quick[/quote']

 

You make these comments, but then you never look anything up.

 

Ubaldo Jimenez Rumors: Thursday

By Tim Dierkes [July 29 at 12:26am CST]

 

The latest on Rockies ace Ubaldo Jimenez, who is scheduled to pitch Saturday in San Diego...

 

The Tigers contacted the Rockies Thursday to discuss possible deals, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. Colorado is also discussing Jimenez with the Yankees, Red Sox, Reds and Guardians, according to FOX. Names of interest to the Rockies: Kyle Weiland and Will Middlebrooks of the Red Sox, Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, and Jesus Montero of the Yankees, Jacob Turner of the Tigers, Yonder Alonso and a Major League starting pitcher from the Reds, and Drew Pomeranz of the Guardians.

The Yankees appear to have the best shot at Jimenez, but there are no indications that they will meet the Rockies' asking price, according to Troy Renck of the Denver Post (on Twitter).

The Rockies' asking price for Jimenez "remains very, very high," tweets ESPN's Buster Olney, as in three top prospects. There's been no significant movement in the Jimenez market, tweets Joel Sherman of the New York Post.

An NL source tells Scott Lauber of the Boston Herald the Red Sox are "not hot as of now" for Jimenez.

[SoxSport]

The taxpayers money?? Does the government now subsidize any poor signings that the Red Sox make?

 

Of course, it's tax deductible.

 

All those multi-millionaires aren't paying enough taxes.There should be a surtax

on all this free money tossed around in sports that comes from the taxpayer thru the media. Check your cable bill.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Of course, it's tax deductible.

 

All those multi-millionaires aren't paying enough taxes.There should be a surtax

on all this free money tossed around in sports that comes from the taxpayer thru the media. Check your cable bill.

 

This looks like a segway into a political discussion regarding the tiered tax system, which turns into welfare, tax the rich save the poor, etc. I'm not going to get into that. That is the least of the things that should be on the TalkSox trade thread

[RedSox_Ruszkowski]

ooohhhh..... political talk.......

[example1]

The more I've thought about it' date=' the more I'm on board with going after Bedard. Jimenez would be a big improvement, but [b']I don't know if he would be that much better than Bedard that you could justify the extra prospects.[/b] But what's even more important is that you save your stud prospects for a bigger trade this offseason, be it for Felix, Kershaw, Weaver, Wainwright, etc. Solidify the rotation this year by making a smaller move (Doubront + Chiang for Bedard), and save your blue chips for this offseason.

 

3) WAR for starting pitchers: 2009-2011

 

Verlander: 19.7

Halladay: 19.3

Lee: 17.5

Sabathia: 17.0

Greinke: 16.9

Lincecum: 16.8

Hernandez: 16.7

Haren: 15.1

Weaver: 14.9

Jimenez: 14.5

Lester: 13.9

Kershaw: 13.6

Johnson: 13.6

Carpenter: 12.2

Hamels: 12.0

Wainwright: 11.8

 

That's obviously a list of the best pitchers in the game, right?

 

He's 11th among all pitchers in strikeouts during that time (the top 10 are all on that list). He's got the exact same WHIP as Jon Lester (1.22). During that same span Jimenez has the hardest average FB (95.5) among pitchers with 500 IP or more, ahead of Verlander, Edwin Jackson, Felix Hernandez and CC Sabathia, among others.

 

Bedard is nowhere to be seen.

 

He hasnt thrown more than 100 IP since 2008. He could easily be back on the DL by playoff time. Thats ok if he is purely a buy low 5th starter, not if he is reassurance for Buchholz or a realistic option in 2012 and beyond.

 

Also, what assurance do you have that any of the players you listed would be available? Weaver? Wainwright? If not, who is realistically available that is better than Jimenez?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Bedard is nowhere to be seen.

 

He hasnt thrown more than 100 IP since 2008. He could easily be back on the DL by playoff time. Thats ok if he is purely a buy low 5th starter, not if he is reassurance for Buchholz or a realistic option in 2012 and beyond.

 

Also, what assurance do you have that any of the players you listed would be available? Weaver? Wainwright? If not, who is realistically available that is better than Jimenez?

 

Wainwright has a club option on his contract, but the contract stipulates that "club must exercise 2012 and 2013 options at same time, but may void if Wainwright is on disabled list with arm injury at end of 2011 season". Wainwright is going to finish 2011 on the DL.

 

Felix's salary bumps up by $10mm going into the 2012 season. He will almost certainly be available during the offseason.

 

You never know how this stuff is going to turn out. All I'm saying is, if there is any sign that there is going to be a better pitcher on the market during the offseason, don't overpay for Jimenez when you can get Bedard for a decent price, assuming he appears to be perfectly healthy, and then you can go big for an elite pitcher. It's Theo's job to anticipate the availability of certain pitchers, be it Weaver, Wainwright, Felix, etc.

[Will617]

Wainwright has a club option on his contract, but the contract stipulates that "club must exercise 2012 and 2013 options at same time, but may void if Wainwright is on disabled list with arm injury at end of 2011 season". Wainwright is going to finish 2011 on the DL.

 

Felix's salary bumps up by $10mm going into the 2012 season. He will almost certainly be available during the offseason.

 

You never know how this stuff is going to turn out. All I'm saying is, if there is any sign that there is going to be a better pitcher on the market during the offseason, don't overpay for Jimenez when you can get Bedard for a decent price, assuming he appears to be perfectly healthy, and then you can go big for an elite pitcher. It's Theo's job to anticipate the availability of certain pitchers, be it Weaver, Wainwright, Felix, etc.

 

Wainwright will undoubtedly get the options exercised unless Pujols is making $30 mil a year/Wainwright's arm is completely busted. $10m is a very affordable price for Felix, I highly doubt he'll be available unless he's personally unhappy (the Mariners have a pretty decent group of players going forward, anyway).

Bedard would be a bridge towards a healthy Buchholz next year/5th starter/Doubront or others. Personally, I don't feel that confident in his arm, but it's probably the most cost-efficient option.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

Sabathia will be a FA this off season.

 

[Spitball]

I expect the Sox will stay in talks for Jiminez as long as it takes to keep his pricetag high enough to affect the Yankees' chances. As one scout said, "The Rockies are asking for a number one return for a number two starter." He is reasonably signed and under control for a few of years, but is he really worth a King Feilx-like haul? Probably not.

 

So, I think the Sox keep the appearance of interest while they truly look elsewhere. Bedard is probably the smartest move in my opinion. He has pitched very well away from Safeco so his numbers are not affected by that. His price will be reasonable (with valid reason). And, he could actually be very good.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Wainwright will undoubtedly get the options exercised unless Pujols is making $30 mil a year/Wainwright's arm is completely busted. $10m is a very affordable price for Felix' date=' I highly doubt he'll be available unless he's personally unhappy (the Mariners have a pretty decent group of players going forward, anyway).[/b']

Bedard would be a bridge towards a healthy Buchholz next year/5th starter/Doubront or others. Personally, I don't feel that confident in his arm, but it's probably the most cost-efficient option.

 

Felix's salary bumps up by $10mm going into the 2012 season. He will almost certainly be available during the offseason.

 

Felix bumps up BY 10mm, not TO 10mm.

 

Beginning next year, he is owed $59mm over 3 years. That's an extremely expensive contract for the Mariners.

[Dojji]

So we go after him in the coming offseason when the Mariners migtht be more anxious to move him. Not difficult.

 

I bet money that the Mariners clear other salaries to keep Felix.

 

Also, Seattle ain't Tampa. That's a market that can pay out and have a great roster, if they commit to doing so. They just need to have a better batting average vis-a-vis player development before there's a point to it.

 

But the deadline is rarely a place where talented pitchers with multiple years left on their contract get moved. That is an offseason type deal. Set your sights lower.

[SoxFanForsyth]

So we go after him in the coming offseason when the Mariners migtht be more anxious to move him. Not difficult.

 

I bet money that the Mariners clear other salaries to keep Felix.

 

Also, Seattle ain't Tampa. That's a market that can pay out and have a great roster, if they commit to doing so.

 

But the deadline is rarely a place where talented pitchers with multiple years left on their contract get moved. That is an offseason type deal. Set your sights lower.

 

Was this intended for me?

 

If so, go back and read my posts. I've been advocating getting Bedard for the short term and waiting for this offseason when Felix becomes available. That's been the entire premise of my argument this whole time.

[Dojji]

Nope. I was backing you up. Felix and Ubaldo go nowhere at the deadline unless someone panics and overpays. Those names get floated in the hopes that someone does. The Rockies and Mariners are not going to accept fair deals for those two pitchers.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Watched some of Bedards highlights on MLB.com from this year, this guy looks pretty sick. His repertoire reminds me a ton of Cliff Lee. He's got 92-94 mph fastball, a nice little cutter he can get in on a righties hands, and a knee buckling curveball.

 

I'm not saying he's as good as Cliff Lee, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying his stuff is extremely similar.

[example1]

Watched some of Bedards highlights on MLB.com from this year, this guy looks pretty sick. His repertoire reminds me a ton of Cliff Lee. He's got 92-94 mph fastball, a nice little cutter he can get in on a righties hands, and a knee buckling curveball.

 

I'm not saying he's as good as Cliff Lee, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying his stuff is extremely similar.

 

He does look pretty strong.

 

He's also cocky, which is good for a pitcher coming to Boston. I still like Jimenez better, but if a deal can be completed without giving up too much you won't hear me crying about Bedard. I just don't have high hopes that he can stay healthy.

[a700hitter]

He does look pretty strong.

 

He's also cocky, which is good for a pitcher coming to Boston. I still like Jimenez better, but if a deal can be completed without giving up too much you won't hear me crying about Bedard. I just don't have high hopes that he can stay healthy.

Bedard has incentive to stay on the field. It's a FA year. Pitching for Boston could help his marketability despite his lack of durability.

 

I still like the idea of getting Furcal. He could be a nice addition if he stays healthy.

[SoxFanForsyth]

He does look pretty strong.

 

He's also cocky, which is good for a pitcher coming to Boston. I still like Jimenez better, but if a deal can be completed without giving up too much you won't hear me crying about Bedard. I just don't have high hopes that he can stay healthy.

 

Well, fortunately Bedard's DL stint was not arm related, but rather just a strained knee, not that knees are anything to mess with, but it's better than a shoulder or elbow. I'm actually getting a little excited about the potential move we make, be it Jimenez or Bedard. I really think we're going to get 1 of those 2.

 

Just read an article on the NY Post that said the Yanks view Jimenez as a #2 starter and don't want to give up the haul you would give up for an ace. It's going to be interesting to see if Theo views him the same way.

 

Either way, I'll be watching the Mariners/Rays game tonight for sure. Hopefully Bedard comes out and has a nice showing and the Sox can pull the trigger on him. If Bedard could stay healthy, he could be a top lefty in the AL. Scouts say that this season, his stuff had completely returned to him, and it showed.

 

From April 27 - June 27 (his last start before the DL), he posted a 1.77 ERA, 8.58 K/9, 1.89 BB/9, resulting in an otherworldly 4.53 K:BB. Like I said, his stuff reminds me a ton of Cliff Lee. 8-9 K/9, low BB/9 (albeit, not as low as Lee obviously).

 

And as far as his numbers - they're not affected by Safeco. He's got a 2.16 ERA in 41.2 IP away from Safeco, and a 3.72 ERA in 48.1 IP at Safeco.

[SoxFanForsyth]

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman

#redsox aggressively pursuing of ubaldo. #Guardians, #reds, #jays also fit & r interested. #yankees lurking. #tradedeadline

 

I'm really torn on this. I don't know how much I'm comfortable giving up for Ubaldo, but at the same time, I absolutely do not want to have to face him in pinstripes.

[Dojji]

Ubaldo Jimenez is a very good, highly durable power pitcher with strong stuff. He would probably succeed here and could give us several quality years. I don't want to sound like I don't want him. I do. But you don't make holes to fill holes. If you can find prospects you can spare, that will bring in Ubaldo, do it. But we've already stripped our farm system twice in the last 2 years, can we really do so a third time without hurting our ability to sustain a winner?

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

f*** that I'd like to see Jimenez here in a heartbeat.

[BornToRun]

I'm really torn on this. I don't know how much I'm comfortable giving up for Ubaldo' date=' but at the same time, I absolutely do not want to have to face him in pinstripes.[/quote']

 

He's 27, he's shown he can be an ace. His velocity is down but his peripherals are still good and getting him out of Coors would definitely help. It would suck hardcore giving up Ranaudo or Middlebrooks but maybe that's an acceptable loss. I would like to hold onto both of 'em but Ubaldo is the kind of guy that could be worth it. I'd like to keep at least one of those two. If the deal is fair and we aren't destroying the farm, I say pull the trigger.

 

In all honesty, I'm still pissed the Cubs won't deal Garza. If there was a guy I'd dump good prospects for, it's him. He'd be a perfect f***in' fit but the Cubs have some misconception that they're going to be contending soon (wake up! You're the f***ing Cubs) and won't trade him, Baker too.