...and whoever's playing the Yankees - 2008 Game Thread

[Gom]

This game is over. It's just the wait that's killing me.

[yankees228]

This game is over. It's just the wait that's killing me.

 

Not going to Rivera is f***ing stupid. I don't care about the don't bring your closer into a tie game on the road s***. The situation calls for it.

[das11209]

So far Nady has been little better than Bay. Just to balance the battle of super-powers of Sox and Yanks the Pirates added Marte to the deal.

[Optimist]

Oh no....Mo in a non save situation.

[Optimist]

And just like that, it's over.

 

To quote the crowd, "Yankees Suck. Yankees suck. Yankees suck."

[Gom]

And thre you have it.

 

I will be the most pissed off New Yorker if Cashman has a job tomorrow. FIRE CASHMAN NOW!

[yankees228]

Holy s***. OK, that pissed me off. What in the world is Betemit doing? That was his ball and he broke for the bag. Can't make this s*** up.

[Gom]

Yankees play the Twins today. f*** the Yankees. I hope Cashman gets run over by a Zamboni after being mugged by Kirby Puckett while waiting in line to go to the bathroom at a bar. f***.

[Cocos Disciples]

Isn't Puckett dead?

[Gom]

I hope he comes back from the grave to kill Cashman zombie-style.

[jacksonianmarch]

You are an idiot Gom.

[Soxfan1]

[Gom]

You are an idiot Gom.

It was thinking like yours that didn't want to give up Kennedy and Cabrera for Santana.

 

That youth movement doesn't work as well as you'd like it to. It never will. You will get lucky with young pitching. Look at the young pitchers the Yankees and Red Sox have brought up.

 

Hughes

Kennedy

Chamberlain

Lester

Buchholz

Hansen

Delcarmen

 

ETC....You can list any young pitcher the Yankees brought up, or the Red Sox, etc. The only two who have done anything of value were Joba and Lester.

 

For both sides, how many times did we have each respectively have a chance at getting a decent player for any of the above?

 

Tried and true baseball acumen. Trading a prospect for veterans benefits the team acquiring the veteran the majority of the time.

 

Imagine if the Red Sox had traded for Santana...they wanted Ellsbury and Buchholz. From us, they wanted Kennedy and Wang. We could have had Fuentes for Kennedy.

 

The true idiots are the one's who think that holding onto these "prized prospects" would benefit either team more than using them to acquire tried and true veterans. The Yankees streak of making the playoffs is over. Cashman's tenure should end with it. Gene Michael came out and said that when given an opportunity, you had to go get a Santana.

 

Imagine if Santana replaced the 0-4 Kennedy. That's about 3-4 games minimum in the standings.

 

The Rockies wanted Fuentes. How many games could Fuentes have saved, or held the lead, in just this road trip?

 

Who's the idiot now?

[jacksonianmarch]

Again, you are looking at the short term. Giving up on Hughes and Kennedy when they are 22 and 23 respectively is foolish. If you crave to have Gene Michaels reinstalled, maybe, just maybe you should understand what you want. Michaels is the kind of guy who rebuilt the yankee dynasty with key internal pieces and supplemented them with trades. Cashman is trying the same model. Neither of these guys were big on the huge FA splashes. So if you wish to clamor for Cashman's head and strike up a position that Michael be re-hired, maybe you should do your damn homework and think for once.

[jacksonianmarch]

and to be honest with you, if half our damn team wasnt on the DL, we'd be leading the WC. The fact that we're only 4 back with Wang, Joba, Hughes, Posada, Matsui all on the DL for the long term and after having Kennedy fail, Horne and Marquez get hurt, Damon and ARod being on the DL for 3 weeks: is amazing.

[Gom]

Again' date=' you are looking at the short term. Giving up on Hughes and Kennedy when they are 22 and 23 respectively is foolish. If you crave to have Gene Michaels reinstalled, maybe, just maybe you should understand what you want. Michaels is the kind of guy who rebuilt the yankee dynasty with key internal pieces and supplemented them with trades. Cashman is trying the same model. Neither of these guys were big on the huge FA splashes. So if you wish to clamor for Cashman's head and strike up a position that Michael be re-hired, maybe you should do your damn homework and think for once.[/quote']

You really are clueless. Michael did it with players who had TALENT. Why do you think Michael wanted to trade for Santana? Simply because he knew that the guys given up had no talent.

 

Difference is, Stick was, is, and always will be better at this than Cashman.

 

and to be honest with you' date=' if half our damn team wasnt on the DL, we'd be leading the WC. The fact that we're only 4 back with Wang, Joba, Hughes, Posada, Matsui all on the DL for the long term and after having Kennedy fail, Horne and Marquez get hurt, Damon and ARod being on the DL for 3 weeks: is amazing.[/quote']

First of all, Hughes on the DL was no loss, but an addition by subtraction. He will never be more than a number 3 pitcher, and that is being optimistic.

 

The fact that Posada is on the DL is the only reason on earth we did as well as we did. If Posada was catching, we'd be in fourth place, battling the Orioles for last place. That's how bad a catcher he is.

 

Injuries are part of the game. I'm not looking at the injuries part, all teams have to deal with them. It's the moves Cashman didn't make that killed this season.

 

Just because you're 22 or 23 doesn't mean you'll get better to the point where you'll be good. Melky may have just topped out. As Kennedy gets older, he won't increase the speed of his Reagan-Era fastball. Edwar Ramirez will be nothing more than a footnote in baseball history. He'll be out of baseball in two years.

 

Joba won't pitch 99 forever. You hope that as his velocity goes down, his command and knowledge of the game increases and he will continue to be effective.

 

Kennedy will never be a major league player of significance. Cashman's failure to realize this has cost the Yankees the 2008 playoffs. He had a chance to rectify it somewhat by getting Fuentes. He blew it twice in half a year on the same player.

[jacksonianmarch]

I continue to be amazed by how ignorant you are on this topic.

[Gom]

I continue to be amazed by how ignorant you are on this topic.

I feel the same way about you. Maybe if it was Cashman who had brought up the last wave [Jeter, Pettitte, Mo, Bernie] I'd feel more confident. If you remember correctly, it was Stick who brought them up. Cashman did nothing but ride the wave of Stick [and Watson, who you could say took over for Stick]. Since Cashman came up, he has drafted one good player. One. In ten f***ing years. That's Joba. Not a single other player he has drafted has had a significant impact. Not one. Cano? Free Agent. Wang? Free Agent. Name a player that he drafted that made a difference. The only one you have is Joba. Period. Ten years. One good draft pick.

 

When the Cashman experiment is over, then you'll realize. Until you do it up here, I don't care. All three...Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy had good numbers in the minors. Only one will ever have any success up here. The other will be ok, the other will be bagging groceries in a few years.

 

Wake up Jacko. These rookies are for the most part garbage.

 

Let me ask you this: What do you see about Kennedy that you like? Have you watched him pitch? Tell me exactly what you like about him. I really want to know.

[a700hitter]

The true idiots are the one's who think that holding onto these "prized prospects" would benefit either team more than using them to acquire tried and true veterans. The Yankees streak of making the playoffs is over. Cashman's tenure should end with it. Gene Michael came out and said that when given an opportunity' date=' you had to go get a Santana.[/quote']No matter how many times it is proved that prospects are long shots, front offices are able to convince their fans that it is the right thing to keep the prospects instead of trading them for established players. I am used to this line of BS from the Red Sox. It has been going on well before these owners. I am surprised that the Yankees also have decided to go down this idiotic road. It's not smart. It's just the cheap choice.

[a700hitter]

Again' date=' you are looking at the short term. Giving up on Hughes and Kennedy when they are 22 and 23 respectively is foolish. If you crave to have Gene Michaels reinstalled, maybe, just maybe you should understand what you want. Michaels is the kind of guy who rebuilt the yankee dynasty with key internal pieces and supplemented them with trades. Cashman is trying the same model. Neither of these guys were big on the huge FA splashes. So if you wish to clamor for Cashman's head and strike up a position that Michael be re-hired, maybe you should do your damn homework and think for once.[/quote']By the time Santana stops being a major force, either Kennedy or Hughes or both will be forgotten.

[Gom]

No matter how many times it is proved that prospects are long shots' date=' front offices are able to convince their fans that it is the right thing to keep the prospects instead of trading them for established players. I am used to this line of BS from the Red Sox. It has been going on well before these owners. I am surprised that the Yankees also have decided to go down this idiotic road. It's not smart. It's just the cheap choice.[/quote']

I guess we've been around long enough to see through it. There will always be a new generation of fans or the dumb ones that forgot that they can pull the wool over their eyes.

 

Remember when the Red Sox came out and touted that by the last year of the respective contracts, Coco would have better numbers than Damon? Damon leads the league in hitting. Crisp has shown that the only thing he knows about hitting is that he can't do it.

 

It amazes me that so many people buy the junk about "prospects".

By the time Santana stops being a major force' date=' either Kennedy or Hughes or both will be forgotten.[/quote']

I wish it wasn't true, but it will be. No doubt about it. Same thing with Buchholz and probably Ellsbury too. Difference is, you'll make the playoffs. We won't.

[CrespoBlows]

No matter how many times it is proved that prospects are long shots' date=' front offices are able to convince their fans that it is the right thing to keep the prospects instead of trading them for established players. I am used to this line of BS from the Red Sox. It has been going on well before these owners. I am surprised that the Yankees also have decided to go down this idiotic road. It's not smart. It's just the cheap choice.[/quote']

 

You mean like trading Todd Helton for Kevin Youkilis?

[Gom]

You mean like trading Todd Helton for Kevin Youkilis?

 

You don't win every deal. Would your team be better with Helton and Santana, or Ellsbury, Buchholz, and Youkilis? Santana alone is better than everyone you have. No guarantee Helton would have gotten injured.

[CrespoBlows]

You don't win every deal.

 

Then quit being stupid, and saying that 99.9% of veteran for prospects deal turns out great.

 

Would your team be better with Helton and Santana, or Ellsbury, Buchholz, and Youkilis? Santana alone is better than everyone you have. No guarantee Helton would have gotten injured.

 

What the f***? Are you serious?

 

Helton and Santana will make a combined $37 million next year. Youkilis will make about $3 million, and Ellsbury and Buchholz will make the minimum.

 

Wait, watch what I can do. I saved $34 million not going after Helton and Santana.

 

I can sign C.C. Sabathia! And still have saved $16 million. Plus, I still can pencil in Ellsbury, who should win the gold glove in CF, and send Buchholz to AAA to work on his fastball command. Buchholz should not be written off, that's f***ing stupid. The same thing with Phil Hughes.

 

When judging a deal that has young players, you should be more prudent. Phil Hughes hasn't proved he's done. He was probably pitching with an injury.

 

I will give you Ian Kennedy. He sucks.

[Gom]

Then quit being stupid' date=' and saying that 99.9% of veteran for prospects deal turns out great.[/quote']

I said majority. Not 99.9%

What the f***? Are you serious?

Absolutely. Santana is worth more than Youkilis, Ellsbury, and Buchholz. I don't think there is much doubt there.

Helton and Santana will make a combined $37 million next year. Youkilis will make about $3 million, and Ellsbury and Buchholz will make the minimum.

 

Wait, watch what I can do. I saved $34 million not going after Helton and Santana.

 

I can sign C.C. Sabathia! And still have saved $16 million.

Once again, the complaint about money. Why do you care about money when you're the 2nd richest team in baseball?

 

Your front office has gotten you so focused on money, you probably care more about their money then the fact they charge you hundreds of dollars to watch the game....and they don't go sign the big money players. Like Barnum said, there's one born every minute.

[CrespoBlows]

The stats overwhelmingly favor Youkilis/Ellsbury/Buchholz

 

WARP3

 

Ellsbury - 7.1

Youkilis - 8.6

Buchholz - .3

 

Helton - 3.7

Santana - 6.8 (Not surprising, considering he's dominating a very weak NL)

[CrespoBlows]

 

Absolutely. Santana is worth more than Youkilis, Ellsbury, and Buchholz. I don't think there is much doubt there.

 

Not only is there doubt, but you're 100% wrong.

 

Once again, the complaint about money. Why do you care about money when you're the 2nd richest team in baseball?

 

I operate in a world of reality. In this world, there are things called budgets, and luxury taxes. Unlike the Yankees, the Red Sox operate on a budget. They aren't a poor team by any means, but to think they can just brush gigantic mistakes under the rug is wrong.

 

Your front office has gotten you so focused on money, you probably care more about their money then the fact they charge you hundreds of dollars to watch the game....and they don't go sign the big money players. Like Barnum said, there's one born every minute.

 

What the f***? Again, really?

 

No, I see that the Red Sox spend $150 million dollars. They spent $51 million just to talk to a pitcher. They spent $14 million on J.D. Drew. They spent another $9 million on Julio Lugo. This team goes after big players. So, when they think they're better off keeping two top twenty prospects, Justin Masterson, and Jed Lowrie and trying them out, I'm not going to bitch.

 

Besides, for the sake of your comparision, why don't you throw Jon Lester on the other side, considering the Twins weren't getting Buchholz.

[Gom]

Also, i't not fair including Youkilis, since that wasn't a prospect for veteran deal. I wouldn't have made the deal based on the similarity in their numbers OPS-wise and the difference in age. So discount that deal completely.

 

Any statistic that shows Ellsbury as more valuable than Santana should be immediately discarded as ever being valid. Period. Are you taking up JHB's position as resident statistical idiot?

[26 to 6]

We could have had Fuentes for Kennedy.

Is that in fact true? And if so I want to f***ing know why that trade was not made!!!

 

But other than that, I disagree with a lot of your points on this topic, not all, but a lot.

 

You specifically mentioned Mo, as well as the other 3. But Mo in particular, if you think about it, was almost traded to Seattle after his struggles in the bigs initially. By your thinking, we would have traded Mo. Sometimes players take TIME to show their worth. I still think Hughes will be a top of the rotation starter, but I admit I have lost all hope in Kennedy. Sometimes, it is beneficial to take your route and trade prospects for vets, but not always.

[CrespoBlows]

 

Also, i't not fair including Youkilis, since that wasn't a prospect for veteran deal. I wouldn't have made the deal based on the similarity in their numbers OPS-wise and the difference in age. So discount that deal completely.

 

lol

 

Youkilis, Ellsbury, and Buchholz is still

 

Any statistic that shows Ellsbury as more valuable than Santana should be immediately discarded as ever being valid. Period. Are you taking up JHB's position as resident statistical idiot?

 

Santana plays in the s*** NL. His strikeouts are way down, his WHIP is way up. Throw in a move to the powerful AL East. Is that Johan Santana worth Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester, Justin Masterson, Jed Lowrie, and Ryan Kalish? That was the deal the Red Sox, according to Will Carroll, was all but done.

 

To be fair, I added WARP3. Right now, Santana has a 5.3 WARP compared to Ellsbury's 4.1.