Done to a Crisp and Gonzalez Too

[Beckett95]

id like to keep graffanino, but theres no chance we keep to utility infielders on the bench

[Beckett95]

graffanino might not make this team if they end up acquiring alex gonzalez. he will likely be either traded(unlikely) or let go.

 

youk can play 3rd and snow 1b. If any two of: lowell, youk and snow, s*** the bed, then were going to have to go out and get somebody. We dont know how good marte will be if he gets called up this year. Last year he did awful.

[jimmycarter05]

Not if management thinks ahead like you and realizes that they have no 3B if Lowell shits the bed.

 

 

If Lowell does they can move Youk over their, trade Lowell for somewhat of a right handed 1b, whoever is medicore, and after the season if the O's don't nail him long term, sign Melvin Mora to play 3rd and move Youk back to first.

[jsinger121]

they are not going to have cora, gonzalez, lowell, loretta, youkilis, snow and graff on the team. thats seven infielders. they dont need that many. graff is the odd man out. plus i dont want him playing third because he lacks the range to play third.

[ORS]

why...you hope the sox have no CF????

edit: uh michaels, over crisp; no thanks

With Michaels, Marte doesn't have to be traded, so it's Michaels+Marte vs. Crisp. This is, of course, assuming that Michaels can be had for a RP+ deal. Look at how Michaels stacks up against Crisp defensively in CF.

 

Player, GP, F%, RF, ZR, Rate, Rate2

 

Michaels, 138, .983, 2.67, .855, 107, 108

Crisp, 188, .986, 2.42, .866, 93, 94

 

Most of the traditional stats (Fielding %, Range Factor, Zone Rating) are very similar, which makes it weird for their Rate stats to be so far apart. Since I don't know the equation to calculate RAA (Runs above average, which is used to determine Rate), I can't tell you what Michaels has done to get such better numbers than Crisp. Let's just throw those out and call them defensively equivalent.

 

On the offensive side, Michaels has a better OPS, OBP, and EqA, but Crisp hits for more power. So, if you think the Sox need another power threat (I don't), then Crisp is who you want. But, if you want someone to get on for the sluggers they already have (I do), then Michaels is the answer.

 

Obviously, Crisp has much more upside, and despite the statistcal oddity, I suspect he's a better fielder. But his potential, extra power, and better glove aren't enough to warrant giving up Marte IMO. If a deal for Mota+(non-big-5 prospect) can net them Michaels, then that is a better deal than the one for Crisp+(filler).

 

EDIT: I had the Rate stats backwards, Micheals' numbers are better.

[jsinger121]

i totally agree one read seat and by the way marte had 57 at-bats last year a very small sample. take a look at manny and arods first 50 or so at-bats in the majors and you will find its not far off from marte's

[yankeessuck013]

OK, lets put this to an end...Marte has better upside no doubt but more realistic to be a producer would be Crisp. He's already showed that he can play in the MLB and Marte hasn't. A player can have al the upside in the world but still might not be able to be a big league player.

 

Crisp fills 2 big holes for our team. Lead off Batter and CF with respectively similiar numbers to Damon with far less downside and costs a lot less for a strong FA next year. I'd rather have a cheap proven player that fills holes and leaves us cash for next years FA's then leave 2 huge holes and have a unproven player with upside.

 

After next season, Sign Torii Hunter for CF, move Crisp to RF and let Trot go and have an OF of Manny, Torii, and Coco.

[Beckett95]

im not sure about mora since his 33 or 34 years old, but they could keep youk at 3rd and sign Derek Lee

[seabeachfred]

City of Champs, I would drool at the thought of getting Grady Sizemore over Coco Crisp. He is the guy I covet for CF more than anyone in the Majors but Cleveland will not move him unless we throw in the kitchen sink. I think that is why the Red Sox never even brought up his name. They knew it was a non-starter.

[Beckett95]

buster olneys take on this whole thing

Only physical exams stand in the way of the Red Sox-Cleveland trade, although this whole deal involves some guys with dubious medical histories. The Boston Herald reports set-up man David Riske is not going to be in the deal, while the Globe reports that he is in the deal. The Rhodes-for-Michaels part of the deal is done, which should help the Philly bullpen.

 

Andy Marte is obviously the key to the deal for Cleveland, and this might be what the Guardians are thinking: This could be Aaron Boone's last year with the team, and the Guardians will soon be in the market for a third baseman -- and a good third baseman might be the toughest find in the business (just check the walls of the Hall of Fame, where there are so few at that position).

 

The only way this deal helps the Guardians in 2006 is if Boone doesn't hit and Marte develops quickly and forces his way out of the minor leagues. Maybe Boone will hit and Marte will become the Guardians' left fielder at midseason -- a la Miguel Cabrera -- and give the team the right-handed stick it has been seeking.

 

Considering all that has gone on this offseason -- the defections of Kevin Millwood and Bobby Howry, the failure to land a veteran right-handed bat -- the Guardians might be more prepared to take it to the next level in 2007 rather than in 2006. Howry and Millwood were incredibly important to this team last year.

 

[yankeessuck013]

The scouts love Marte. He may well turn into a star at the MLB level. He's never hit .300 in the minors, and he's never led a league in hrs' or rbis'. Crisp has hit .297 & .300 in the 2 seasons he played over 100 games at the Major League level. Coco is 26. He's signed through 2009. It's not like the Sox traded Marte for Kenny Lofton. The distance between Crisp's upside and Damon's upside is much larger than Crisp vs. Marte. Crisp will still be a very productive player long after Damon has ridden off into the sunset.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

if lowell shits the bed the sox are in serious trouble. marte needs about 3 months of minor league seasoning in triple A before being ready. the red sox have no one behind lowell who i would even consider a viable option. youkilis is not the answer longterm there either.

 

 

If Mike Lowell doesn't work out (he will I don't know why you think otherwise) then Kevin Youkilis would move over to 3rd and JT Snow would take over at first. Thats a bit extreme...I have no idea why a gold glove 3rd baseman with a career of pulling the ball to the right and setting up perfectly for Fenway would struggle so much.

 

The scouts love Marte. He may well turn into a star at the MLB level. He's never hit .300 in the minors, and he's never led a league in hrs' or rbis'. Crisp has hit .297 & .300 in the 2 seasons he played over 100 games at the Major League level. Coco is 26. He's signed through 2009. It's not like the Sox traded Marte for Kenny Lofton. The distance between Crisp's upside and Damon's upside is much larger than Crisp vs. Marte. Crisp will still be a very productive player long after Damon has ridden off into the sunset.

 

Thats a good way of thinking. Well thought out post. However despite his numbers I'm still worried Andy Marte becomes Eric Chavez, Scott Rolen, or David Wright.....then again if any were to become available in free agency we could be huge bidders.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

they are not going to have cora, gonzalez, lowell, loretta, youkilis, snow and graff on the team. thats seven infielders. they dont need that many. graff is the odd man out. plus i dont want him playing third because he lacks the range to play third.

 

Um...if he has the range to play second, what makes you think he lacks the range to play third...?

[Beckett95]

i think lowell hits .290, 30 HR, 115 RBI with around a .880 ops. I haven't read one positive thing about Lowell yet in any article. A lot of people think he'll have the same kinda year he had last year. I expect big things from him in the 6th spot in the order.

[riverside sluggers]

Lowell could in be contention for a comeback award if he were to have a season like that

[jsinger121]

graffinino does not have great range at second and he does not have the quick step needed to play third.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Okay.

[riverside sluggers]

graffinino does not have great range at second and he does not have the quick step needed to play third.

 

opinions not backed up by stats. If he doesnt have great range anywhere, I guess thats why he's just made 68 errors in 707 games

[yankeessuck013]

is anyone excited about A-Gonz....dude's a vacuum.

 

the left side of our infield is gold glove caliber if this goes through

[jsinger121]

I go by zone rating and his career zone rating at third is not good .742. he is also .827 at second for his career which is average at best. hes not a great fielder. a great fielder should be able to get to alot of balls.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

is anyone excited about A-Gonz....dude's a vacuum.

 

the left side of our infield is gold glove caliber if this goes through

 

I am excited about that actually. I know A-Gonzo doesn't have a great bat but I'm sure Fenway will help him hit a little. He is extremely underrated defensively. The guy is outstanding defensively. It wasn't too long ago the Florida Marlins won a World Series and we are gaining Mike Lowell, Josh Beckett, and Alex Gonzalez. Match up that world series team with our world series guys....I'm excited about that.

 

Mike Lowell has a great chance to hit 30 HRs. All he does is pull the ball....last I checked there is a huge green monster that way which he can hammer the ball off of all day. I look at Mike Lowell as a major upgrade to Kevin Millar. Alex Gonzalez doesn't have the bat of Edgar Renteria but Mark Loretta does so thats where I see that production being picked up. On the other side I think Gonzo is much better on the defensive side after what I saw from Edgar.

 

Obviously Josh Beckett speaks for himself. Only part from our team last year that is missing is Johnny Damon.....switch hitting Coco Crisp could find his numbers go up with the protection he has in Loretta, Manny, and Ortiz hitting behind him.

 

I know a lot of us are down right now but you have to admit...our team has some huge upgrades in many areas. Pitching staff, defense, and in several cases the batting is much better....I'm pumped lets get the damn season going.

[example1]

With Michaels, Marte doesn't have to be traded, so it's Michaels+Marte vs. Crisp. This is, of course, assuming that Michaels can be had for a RP+ deal. Look at how Michaels stacks up against Crisp defensively in CF.

 

Player, GP, F%, RF, ZR, Rate, Rate2

 

Michaels, 138, .983, 2.67, .855, 107, 108

Crisp, 188, .986, 2.42, .866, 93, 94

 

Most of the traditional stats (Fielding %, Range Factor, Zone Rating) are very similar, which makes it weird for their Rate stats to be so far apart. Since I don't know the equation to calculate RAA (Runs above average, which is used to determine Rate), I can't tell you what Michaels has done to get such better numbers than Crisp. Let's just throw those out and call them defensively equivalent.

 

On the offensive side, Michaels has a better OPS, OBP, and EqA, but Crisp hits for more power. So, if you think the Sox need another power threat (I don't), then Crisp is who you want. But, if you want someone to get on for the sluggers they already have (I do), then Michaels is the answer.

 

Obviously, Crisp has much more upside, and despite the statistcal oddity, I suspect he's a better fielder. But his potential, extra power, and better glove aren't enough to warrant giving up Marte IMO. If a deal for Mota+(non-big-5 prospect) can net them Michaels, then that is a better deal than the one for Crisp+(filler).

 

EDIT: I had the Rate stats backwards, Micheals' numbers are better.

 

I know this post was a page or two ago, but c'mon!

 

One Red Seat, I expect more out of you than to fall into this absurdity. I expect more out of EVERYONE on this page who truly believes that Jason Michaels can be had for a mediocre middle reliever. Give me a break.

 

I don't need to see Michaels' stats. He's a good player. He puts up some good numbers. Everyone that is advocating the Crisp trade has looked at Michaels' numbers, and looked at them again, then Crisps' numbers, then Damon's numbers, then we've discussed Ellsbury, looked at Reed, compared Reed to Michaels, compared Michaels to Crisp, then looked at Crisp again, before looking back at Michaels and then Bobby Abreu. Everyone knows that Michaels is a good player. He's a little older, and has never started for an entire season, but he's cheap too and apparently can be had for a piece of Johnny damon's hair and Manny's spittle (plus a David Ortiz used apple core).

 

People here need to start thinking like a GM (perhaps multiple teams' GMs) rather than as pure stat-heads. Why would people believe every rumor out there? Why would people assume that a report that says "the sox get crisp plus 2 minor leaguers" is substantially different from "the sox get crisp plus riske and bard"? yeah, they're different players but its the same basic deal.

 

I understand people criticizing the Sox for getting rid of Andy Marte. That's fine. No big deal, I understand being frustrated with that. What I don't understand is people assuming that "we could have had Jason michaels and KEPT Andy Marte". Really? I didn't see that trade rumor anywhere. I didn't see that the Phillies were interested in clement, or Arroyo, or anyone else we have.

 

Why not trade Tony G for Michaels and just keep the top prospect in baseball? Because other teams are not stupid, that's why.

 

ORS, I'm not picking on you in particular. I just get frustrated reading you falling into this perspective. Have some faith that the Sox are aware of whether or not they NEED to trade the top prospect in baseball. Perhaps they know of a Marte injury. Perhaps he's overrated. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... we just don't know. But I know of some people who do, they're called the respective teams' GMs.

 

EDIT: Johnny damon also had a Rate under 100 until he was Crisp's age. crisp was one of the best defensive LF last year and only didn't play CF because of Sizemore.

 

EDIT 2: If Olney is correct then I can see why the Phillies would do Michaels for Rhodes. Rhodes was CLEARLY better than Mota last year. He had a really good season. I don't like him, but I can see why they would do that. Would anyone here trade Mike Timlin for Jason Michaels? Perhaps, but I wouldn't.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

If Olney is correct then I can see why the Phillies would do Michaels for Rhodes. Rhodes was CLEARLY better than Mota last year. He had a really good season. I don't like him, but I can see why they would do that. Would anyone here trade Mike Timlin for Jason Michaels? Perhaps, but I wouldn't.

 

Rhodes was better last year but the years before you have to admit....Guillermo Mota was insane. The guy has major heat and has been very successful...however I think its his health that would stop that potential trade. If we are talking about a healthy Guillermo Mota then I'm nervous...based on the fact if we have Mota (from the Dodgers) then he is possibly the best reliever on our team. On the other hand if he is Mota (from the Marlins) eh....worthless for the most part. I'm guessing there is a health issue.

[example1]

I'm pretty sure there is a health issue. I mean, Wade Miller a few years ago would be worth Andy Marte, but this year he's not worth Kevin Millar. Injuries, time, steroids, etc., take their toll on people.

[Plumpamania]

I still think its a bad trade.

[example1]

I still think its a bad trade.

 

Fair enough plump. I understand being apprehensive about it, but its hardly the worst trade that has ever been made. Like I said earlier, if Marte is really that good the Sox can overspend on him when they're ready to be done with Manny in 3-4 years. I just don't think its that big a deal that they're choosing to get a player who is entering his prime rather than babysitting a 22 year old player who likely won't reach his potential for another 5 years.

[ksushi]

Just read something in my moms news paper that said that Riske isn't in the deal. IMO, no riske, no deal. Riske makes this whole thing palatable. Marte for Crisp sucks, Marte, Mota and Shoppach for Crisp and Josh Bard is like a shower scene in Oz and the Guardians aren't the ones looking for the soap. This could be pitiful. Sorry I'm posting this at like midnight, could have been talked about already but I slept all after noon and just picked up the paper now.

 

*hits panic button*

 

Riske is what makes this deal, him and his nice 0.96 WHIP will free up the Sox hands to deal arroyo for something pretty, or keep him and include him in what could be the best bullpen in baseball. I'm willing to be ok with getting beat up on the Marte deal, although I've fallen in love with Marte, I still love Bagwell so I guess long distance relationships are ok with me. If we get Coco we're definetly the most well rounded team in the East provided he plays a slightly better centerfield than he has in the past. However, Riske is 28, thats decently young, hes got an elite whip and he looks to be a guy who could be a real asset out of the pen along with our other... 5 right handed bullpen assets but thats besides the point. He's tops in this deal. Without him the difference between Crisp and Marte becomes glaring and Josh Bard sucks. Bard is worse than Shoppach, why do we want him?

 

I'm going back to sleep. This shouldn't happen if Riske isn't involved.

[example1]

Just read something in my moms news paper that said that Riske isn't in the deal. IMO, no riske, no deal. Riske makes this whole thing palatable. Marte for Crisp sucks, Marte, Mota and Shoppach for Crisp and Josh Bard is like a shower scene in Oz and the Guardians aren't the ones looking for the soap. This could be pitiful. Sorry I'm posting this at like midnight, could have been talked about already but I slept all after noon and just picked up the paper now.

 

*hits panic button*

 

Riske is what makes this deal, him and his nice 0.96 ERA will free up the Sox hands to deal arroyo for something pretty, or keep him and include him in what could be the best bullpen in baseball. I'm willing to be ok with getting beat up on the Marte deal, although I've fallen in love with Marte, I still love Bagwell so I guess long distance relationships are ok with me. If we get Coco we're definetly the most well rounded team in the East provided he plays a slightly better centerfield than he has in the past. However, Riske is 28, thats decently young, hes got an elite whip and he looks to be a guy who could be a real asset out of the pen along with our other... 5 right handed bullpen assets but thats besides the point. He's tops in this deal. Without him the difference between Crisp and Marte becomes glaring and Josh Bard sucks. Bard is worse than Shoppach, why do we want him?

 

I'm going back to sleep. This shouldn't happen if Riske isn't involved.

 

Very levelheaded post. But I think this kind of proves the point that a lot of us have been trying to make. Like it or not, Crisp, Bard and Riske makes SENSE. It may be unpopular, but at least people are able to say (as they should) "Gee, I hate to see Marte go, but Riske is a good guy to get in return, and Crisp won't be BAD". The Red Sox FO has really not made one move in the past few years that I can think of that didn't get them back SOMETHING that at least seemed sensible and intreuging. I remember after they traded Nomar for Cabrera, Roberts and Mientkez, I had to run the trade over and over again in my mind. They didn't get better at any one position, but they sure as hell bolstered themselves in a lot of other positions.

 

They can not get too much relief pitching. That's what has been so good about the Angels the past few years; its not K-Rod necessarily but the depth of very good pitchers they have out there. confident, mature, veteran (but not over the hill) pitchers who can pitch in many different situations.

 

Anyway, my original point is that we just need to wait to see what the final deal is. Nobody felt that Marte/Mota/Shoppach for Crisp/Bard/Riske was extraordinarly lopsided to one side or the other. one depends on potential, the other on ceiling (i.e., how good can Crisp be?). If we just have some faith that the FO will not sell away a good player for nothing then we'll be fine. Ultimately, we don't NEED a leadoff hitter/CF next year. We could get by, if Marte truly is going to be a 40 HR threat (although in this day of post steroid usage I hope 40 HR is rare) in the future. In that case then of course we shouldn't trade Marte. The FO will do their best to get a deal that is either even, understandable, or favors the sox IMO.

[ksushi]

Quick reply is easy and editing takes page loading, just wanted to say, 0.96 WHIP is what I meant to say, I think you knew that though since you didnt blast me for it.

 

I don't dislike this deal because I think Crisp will be bad. I think the opposite actually, Crisp will be very good. I don't think he will play the best D, but in all likelihood, this will only get exposed in garbage time because of our improved pitching which will likely take the wheel in crunch time. The thing is though, I think Marte will be more than very good. He seems to have that way about him where when he walks back to the dug out, you don't know if he struck out, or is coming back from crossing home plate. He seems to be to be worth much more than Crisp, though, but you're right, its not like the Guardians are robbing us blind, its slightly tipped in their favor because we're winning in this deal big time right now, and it will continue to benefit us down the road as well since all the players in the deal are under the age of 30. Crisp being the youngest at 26. They'll see the benefit probably after they decline their option on Boone next year to make way for Marte, and he'll compliment a nice young offense to the tune of .250/20+/70-80rbi and only improving off of that line each year after while playing very nice defense. I think Marte will blossom into an all star and could be the kind of player that could net you a real difference maker at the deadline, or be kept in the fold and become a difference maker himself.

 

If Riske is in this deal, I'll relax a little, but to me, you can't give up youth AND pitching to get hitting and sacrifice defense.

[riverside sluggers]

It could be announced as early as today. Maybe we'll actually be able to see a press conference with players getting their jerseys now that we have Theo back, jeez cmon there hasnt even been one for Beckett yet.

 

Boston Herald

 

Crisp, Gonzalez transactions imminent

By Jeff Horrigan

Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - Updated: 02:25 AM EST

 

For the past few years, the Red Sox center fielder has made fans think of a biblical messiah. Barring an unexpected collapse of a deal that has been in the works for weeks, Fenway folks now might be inclined to think of a breakfast cereal or a mascot when they hear the name of the their new center fielder. The Sox’ acquisition of Coco Crisp from the Cleveland Guardians could be announced as early as today, allowing the team to fill the gaping, month-old hole in center created by iconic Johnny Damon’s defection to the New York Yankees for $52 million. The deal is expected to send Sox newcomers Andy Marte and Guillermo Mota, and possibly catcher Kelly Shoppach, to the Guardians for the 26-year-old, switch-hitting Crisp and, possibly, relief pitcher David Riske and catcher Josh Bard.

 

The Sox also are expected to announce the signing of free agent shortstop Alex Gonzalez to replace Edgar Renteria, who was sent to the Atlanta Braves on Dec. 8 for Marte. Members of both the Red Sox and Guardians front offices declined comment yesterday, but the announcements could come after Mota undergoes his physical in Cleveland today. The Sox also will reveal the specific duties and title for former general manager Theo Epstein, who rejoined the team last Thursday, at some point this week.