Red Sox (Early) vs Twins (Woods Richardson): 4/15/26, 1:40pm

[mvp 78]

So many pitchers pop up and have a great 4-5 year stretch. Not being able to keep it up for a full decade is what weeds out the non-HOFers. 

[drewski6]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

So many pitchers pop up and have a great 4-5 year stretch. Not being able to keep it up for a full decade is what weeds out the non-HOFers. 

In most cases, yes.  And btw , I lean yes on Saberhagen too.  But Johans 5 year stretch might be the best ever 5 year stretch for a pitcher not in HOF. And someone has to have that, i get that.  If Johan were to be in, there would be another guy who had the best 5 year stretch of all pitchers not in hall.

But Johan had finished in top 5 cy young voting , 5 years running and was heading for a sixth when career ruining injuries started.  Saberhagen had close to as many dominant years but they were spread out and he had the benefit of not getting so hurt so young.

I understand the danger of scaling for health and luck.  But I do think that sometimes , in rare cases, you have to contextualize it. If A dude came up at 22, and was the best pitcher until age 29 and died in a plane crash, he'd prob get in.  In rare cases, I am willing to consider what a pitcher/player did over a span even if the longevity isnt there.  And for some of those guys, I tend to think they are underrated. Only the ones who were dominant in that stretch but something happened outside of their control that zapped their career short.

I would prefer an A++ player for 8 years than an A- player for 20 years. 

I would consider a guy like Johan underrated in my eyes but that doesnt mean I think hes a no doubt HOF'er.  I just get more jazzed about peak upside/dominance than longevity.  But not as much as I use to.  I have recently started givng more props to the dudes who were very good for very long because thats just as hard to do as be completely dominant in a short window. 

[drewski6]

15 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

So many pitchers pop up and have a great 4-5 year stretch. Not being able to keep it up for a full decade is what weeds out the non-HOFers. 

This is a good point, and I dont mean to fully argue against it.  Just illustrating why I think guys like this are underrated.  A good example of a guy who : "if johan got in a guy like this would have a stronger case than he deserves" is Jacob DeGromm.  Dominant but not enough consistent longevity/availability.  So maybe I should have never brought in HOF.

Because I do think that 10-20 years from now - DeGromm will be underrated because people will look at his career WAR and put guys who were not nearly as good as getting hitters out above him because they played longer.  IF you were never a top 7 pitcher in your era, I put Johan and DeGromm above them, but some of em may have higher WAR.

My main point is that I tend to think guys like Johan and DeGromm are underrated, not really that they deserve to be in the hall of fame.

[notin]

54 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

So many pitchers pop up and have a great 4-5 year stretch. Not being able to keep it up for a full decade is what weeds out the non-HOFers. 

And yet Catfish Hunter got into the Hall of Fame…

[notin]

1 hour ago, drewski6 said:

In most cases, yes.  And btw , I lean yes on Saberhagen too.  But Johans 5 year stretch might be the best ever 5 year stretch for a pitcher not in HOF. And someone has to have that, i get that.  If Johan were to be in, there would be another guy who had the best 5 year stretch of all pitchers not in hall.

But Johan had finished in top 5 cy young voting , 5 years running and was heading for a sixth when career ruining injuries started.  Saberhagen had close to as many dominant years but they were spread out and he had the benefit of not getting so hurt so young.

I understand the danger of scaling for health and luck.  But I do think that sometimes , in rare cases, you have to contextualize it. If A dude came up at 22, and was the best pitcher until age 29 and died in a plane crash, he'd prob get in.  In rare cases, I am willing to consider what a pitcher/player did over a span even if the longevity isnt there.  And for some of those guys, I tend to think they are underrated. Only the ones who were dominant in that stretch but something happened outside of their control that zapped their career short.

I would prefer an A++ player for 8 years than an A- player for 20 years. 

I would consider a guy like Johan underrated in my eyes but that doesnt mean I think hes a no doubt HOF'er.  I just get more jazzed about peak upside/dominance than longevity.  But not as much as I use to.  I have recently started givng more props to the dudes who were very good for very long because thats just as hard to do as be completely dominant in a short window. 

Kevin Brown from 1996 to 2000 might be even better…

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, notin said:

And yet Catfish Hunter got into the Hall of Fame…

He did have a decent 10 year stretch, but yes HOF caliber for just 5-6 seasons.

Context is needed when you see his 3.33 ERA from 1967-1970. He had a 97 ERA+ and a 3.57 FIP.

 

[Old Red]

28 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

He did have a decent 10 year stretch, but yes HOF caliber for just 5-6 seasons.

Context is needed when you see his 3.33 ERA from 1967-1970. He had a 97 ERA+ and a 3.57 FIP.

 

It didn’t hurt Catfish that played on a team that won 3 championships in a row, and might have been a fourth if not for the Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

16 minutes ago, Old Red said:

It didn’t hurt Catfish that played on a team that won 3 championships in a row, and might have been a fourth if not for the Red Sox.

Yup, without those 3, no HOF.

[Behindenemylines]

On 4/15/2026 at 3:10 PM, mvp 78 said:

Early may actually get to finish the 6th inning finally. 

Early came up big when the Sox needed him! I believe the Sox are 7 and 0 when the starter goes innings!

[notin]

3 hours ago, Old Red said:

It didn’t hurt Catfish that played on a team that won 3 championships in a row, and might have been a fourth if not for the Red Sox.

Incorrect.  Hunter was not on the A’s in 1975.

But he did play in 6 World Series in a 7 year stretch and won rings in 5 of them.

Good things happen when you keep teaming up with Mr. October, I suppose…

[Old Red]

I stand corrected. Catfish had gone to the Yankees in 1975.

[mvp 78]

16 hours ago, drewski6 said:

In most cases, yes.  And btw , I lean yes on Saberhagen too.  But Johans 5 year stretch might be the best ever 5 year stretch for a pitcher not in HOF. And someone has to have that, i get that.  If Johan were to be in, there would be another guy who had the best 5 year stretch of all pitchers not in hall.

But Johan had finished in top 5 cy young voting , 5 years running and was heading for a sixth when career ruining injuries started.  Saberhagen had close to as many dominant years but they were spread out and he had the benefit of not getting so hurt so young.

I understand the danger of scaling for health and luck.  But I do think that sometimes , in rare cases, you have to contextualize it. If A dude came up at 22, and was the best pitcher until age 29 and died in a plane crash, he'd prob get in.  In rare cases, I am willing to consider what a pitcher/player did over a span even if the longevity isnt there.  And for some of those guys, I tend to think they are underrated. Only the ones who were dominant in that stretch but something happened outside of their control that zapped their career short.

I would prefer an A++ player for 8 years than an A- player for 20 years. 

I would consider a guy like Johan underrated in my eyes but that doesnt mean I think hes a no doubt HOF'er.  I just get more jazzed about peak upside/dominance than longevity.  But not as much as I use to.  I have recently started givng more props to the dudes who were very good for very long because thats just as hard to do as be completely dominant in a short window. 

I mean, Felix Hernandez isn't in the HOF (yet). He had a better peak than Johan and that peak lasted longer. 

Kevin Brown's '96-'00 was better than Johan's best 5 years. Kevin Brown may be the most underrated pitcher of all time TBH. 76.5 fWAR, 7 years above 6 fWAR, 

Another highly underrated pitcher: Rick Reuschel.

[mvp 78]

15 hours ago, notin said:

And yet Catfish Hunter got into the Hall of Fame…

Yes, he's the worst modern era starter in the HOF followed by Jack Morris and Jim Kaat. 

[notin]

25 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Yes, he's the worst modern era starter in the HOF followed by Jack Morris and Jim Kaat. 

And yet they still exclude Tommy John…

[mvp 78]

6 minutes ago, notin said:

And yet they still exclude Tommy John…

He has the same WAR/162 as Lance Lynn and Gio Gonzalez. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

And yet they still exclude Tommy John…

He should get in just for his impact on body parts essential to ballplayers... like, what other big leaguer in history has had an underwear company named for him?

[mvp 78]

21 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

He should get in just for his impact on body parts essential to ballplayers... like, what other big leaguer in history has had an underwear company named for him?

Has a Clash song named after him too. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

He should get in just for his impact on body parts essential to ballplayers... like, what other big leaguer in history has had an underwear company named for him?

Fruity McLoom?

[notin]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

I mean, Felix Hernandez isn't in the HOF (yet). He had a better peak than Johan and that peak lasted longer. 

Kevin Brown's '96-'00 was better than Johan's best 5 years. Kevin Brown may be the most underrated pitcher of all time TBH. 76.5 fWAR, 7 years above 6 fWAR, 

Another highly underrated pitcher: Rick Reuschel.

I was just looking it up.

Santana (2004-2008) 35.6.bWAR, 29.8 fWAR

Brown (1996-2000) 36.7 bWAR, 36.9 fWAR

 

Somehow Brown escaped that stretch without a single Cy Young award (Santana won twice during his.)

[mvp 78]

13 minutes ago, notin said:

I was just looking it up.

Santana (2004-2008) 35.6.bWAR, 29.8 fWAR

Brown (1996-2000) 36.7 bWAR, 36.9 fWAR

 

Somehow Brown escaped that stretch without a single Cy Young award (Santana won twice during his.)

Brown must have given really bad postgame interviews or something. 

[notin]

31 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Brown must have given really bad postgame interviews or something. 

It’s also kind of a common, vanilla name.  Maybe the voters confused him with one of the two other Kevin Browns playing in the 1990’s.

Yes, MLB has seen exactly 3 players named Kevin Brown in their entire history, and all three played in the 1990’s…

[mvp 78]

41 minutes ago, notin said:

It’s also kind of a common, vanilla name.  Maybe the voters confused him with one of the two other Kevin Browns playing in the 1990’s.

Yes, MLB has seen exactly 3 players named Kevin Brown in their entire history, and all three played in the 1990’s…

And one played for the wretched 2002 Sox team (the catcher). 

[notin]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

And one played for the wretched 2002 team (the catcher). 

It also is the basis for the easiest MLB trivia question of all time.

Q: In MLB history, only 3 players have been named Kevin Brown.  All 3 played in the 1990s, but only one began his career thr decade before and ended it in the following decade. Which one?

A: Kevin Brown

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

28 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Brown must have given really bad postgame interviews or something. 

What Can Brown Do For You? is a question no Boston fan should ever ask.

Instead, show some disrespect for Kevin Brown, who lost the most crucial game in Red Sox fandom in my lifetime... (at least it was for the fans I knew, and the ones I never had to listen to again) -- 2004 Game 7 ALCS in the Bronx.

Brown actually made two starts that series, and was so good he couldn't even get the W in the Yankees last victory when they edged the Sox, 19-8. 

Here's Brown's stats in the '04 ALCS: 2 GS, 3.1 IP (not a typo), 9 H, 4 BB, 8 ER, 21.60 ERA (not a typo).