Spring Training game thread: Week of Feb 21

[mvp 78]

7 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Fair enough, but not what I was talking about haha.

FOr example, do you think Fernando Tatis Jr should be a fulltime SS today?

No, he was always a pretty bad SS. By '21, they were moving him elsewhere because the defense just wasn't a good fit even at age 22. 

[drewski6]

48 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Cora sticks guys where they are needed first and foremost like with Anthony in RF last year, and Mayer at 3B last year, and RAF Man at SS the year before.

 

Sure , but I think its more "MLB managers" than Cora.  Oneill cruz, Dalton varsho, Fernando tatis, mike trout, mookie (3x), jonathan india, raf devers (in SF),jose  altuve,  javy baez, cam smith, tyler soderstrom (again), bryce harper, jazz chisholm, willson contreras (st louis). Bo Bichette,  Addison Barger, Jurickson Profar, and so many others ....Guys are just moving around more these days.  Cora may be above average in willingness to use positional versatility/move guys around, but its not like exclusively a Cora thing.  And all of those guys are not injury fill-ins, they are permanent position modifications.  Im sure some changes were kick-started by mixing up positional alignment due to injury but in the mentioned cases, that was just the catalyst and it stuck for other reasons.  ANd another thing is guys moving around, its for all sorts of reasons.  E.g. having 2 good second baseman and then a 3b gets hurt so you put a guy there, realize he can do it, and he sticks....Or its player x outgrew his ability to play former position or aged out of it , or always kind of struggled at their position so it was swapped....

Guys are moving around for all sorts of different reasons on almost all teams.  I think Cora might be ahead of the curve on it or do it more than most, but I dont think its a cora thing.  Dave Roberts moves guys around just as much.

[drewski6]

Bill Belichick was paraded around on shoulders as a genius for moving guys around.  And I understand its a different sport, but baseball is the old-schooliest of sports, the most hesitant to modernize....And what you are seeing with the positional chnages is baseball folks getting dragged into the present kicking and screaming about how things use to be.....When football and basketball positional changes were a thing 5-10 years ago. Baseball is just catching up that positions are suggestions.  And versatility is better than rigidity.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

29 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Guys are moving around for all sorts of different reasons on almost all teams.  I think Cora might be ahead of the curve on it or do it more than most, but I dont think its a cora thing. 

Could be partially, since AC played all over the diamond as a utility specialist.

If you want a conspiracy, maybe teams like Boston that don't want to spend kajillions on one set position player at each spot anymore like the idea of collecting more affordable moving parts.

Back in the day there were also guys like Bert Campaneris and Cesar Tovar who each played all nine positions in one game. Brock Holt may have or at least wanted to, or maybe thought he did after his concussion...

[Old Red]

30 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Sure , but I think its more "MLB managers" than Cora.  Oneill cruz, Dalton varsho, Fernando tatis, mike trout, mookie (3x), jonathan india, raf devers (in SF),jose  altuve,  javy baez, cam smith, tyler soderstrom (again), bryce harper, jazz chisholm, willson contreras (st louis). Bo Bichette,  Addison Barger, Jurickson Profar, and so many others ....Guys are just moving around more these days.  Cora may be above average in willingness to use positional versatility/move guys around, but its not like exclusively a Cora thing.  And all of those guys are not injury fill-ins, they are permanent position modifications.  Im sure some changes were kick-started by mixing up positional alignment due to injury but in the mentioned cases, that was just the catalyst and it stuck for other reasons.  ANd another thing is guys moving around, its for all sorts of reasons.  E.g. having 2 good second baseman and then a 3b gets hurt so you put a guy there, realize he can do it, and he sticks....Or its player x outgrew his ability to play former position or aged out of it , or always kind of struggled at their position so it was swapped....

Guys are moving around for all sorts of different reasons on almost all teams.  I think Cora might be ahead of the curve on it or do it more than most, but I dont think its a cora thing.  Dave Roberts moves guys around just as much.

The more you move EVERYDAY players around doesn’t necessarily mean at all that it makes the team a better team just, because that’s the way it’s done more today.

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Could be partially, since AC played all over the diamond as a utility specialist.

97% of his time was spent at 2b or SS. He really wasn't a super utility guy like Brock Holt. I think he just moves guys around that aren't good enough to play one position fulltime. 

[Old Red]

10 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Could be partially, since AC played all over the diamond as a utility specialist.

If you want a conspiracy, maybe teams like Boston that don't want to spend kajillions on one set position player at each spot anymore like the idea of collecting more affordable moving parts.

Back in the day there were also guys like Bert Campaneris and Cesar Tovar who each played all nine positions in one game. Brock Holt may have or at least wanted to, or maybe thought he did after his concussion...

Tovar, and Campy were good athletes, and could do things like that, but not all are. I heard one poster on here say that, because Mookie has moved around to different positions that Raffy should have done the same thing like Raffy is the same athlete as Mookie is. Not even close there on who’s a lot better athlete, and a bad comparison to boot.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

97% of his time was spent at 2b or SS. He really wasn't a super utility guy like Brock Holt. I think he just moves guys around that aren't good enough to play one position fulltime. 

But why are there so many in Boston this decade that don't ignite cigars at the fireplace?

[drewski6]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

The more you move EVERYDAY players around doesn’t necessarily mean at all that it makes the team a better team just, because that’s the way it’s done more today.

Sure - my point was that it isnt exclusively a Cora thing.  Whether or not its in the best interest of the team to move a guy off position for whatever reason or play a guy out of position for a game or a spell of games (if someone hits the 15 day DL) .....All of those decisions, if you were to ask me what I feel about them, I would prob give the ole....."case by case" 

[drewski6]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

97% of his time was spent at 2b or SS. He really wasn't a super utility guy like Brock Holt. I think he just moves guys around that aren't good enough to play one position fulltime. 

Defensively you mean? Not overall.  Because the best overall players get moved, but maybe not the best defensive players (as much).  Im more hesitant to move Cedanne out of CF than I would be if he were a B+ CF who can also play infield because taking him out of CF is a loss.

I would agree that stuff needs to be factored in and is often factored in.  I disagree with your phrasing here, however, as I dont think its only reserved for guys who are bad at the positions being moved from.  Cedanne played infield last year after being proven great at OF.  I really do think they strongly considered playing Bregman at 2b.  Maybe like Tatis is a good example of what you are saying "you arent a good enough SS to stick at SS" we've seen that for so many shortstops (and catchers).  So maybe thats the most common reason why guys are moved.

But I dont think its exclusively/always the reason.  I think a lot of times, you are moving guys around simply and for no other reason than "thats how you play the best nine hitters".  E.g. Its the world series, we arent going to sit Papi, sorry Youk, you are playing 3rd even though you havent done it in a few years because we certainly not going to bench Papi or play him at 3rd."

A lot of times, you are moving guys around not to improve your defense, but to improve your offense and you are sacrificing the D.  Which is a move I make 8/10 times because y'all overrate the importance of ideal D alignment.

[drewski6]

They didnt move Arod to 3rd base to make their D better, they moved Arod to 3rd base so they could get arod despite already having jeter.  Its not always about , "need to align the best way we can on D".

Ideal defensive alignment is less of a priority than hitting.

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Defensively you mean? Not overall.  Because the best players get moved, but the best defensive players may not.  Im more hesitant to move Cedanne out of CF than I would be if he were a B+ CF who can also play infield because tkaing him out of CF is a loss.

I would agree that stuff needs to be factored in nad is often factored in.  I disagree with your phrasing here, however, as I dont think its reserved for guys who are bad at positions.  Cedanne played infield lsat year after being proven great at OF.  I really do think they strongly considered playing Bregman at 2b.  Maybe like Tatis is a good example of what you are saying "you arent a good enough SS to stick at SS" we've seen that for so many shortstops (and catchers). 

But I dont think its exclusively/always the reason.  I think a lot of times, you are moving guys around simply and for no other reason than thats how you play the best nine hitters.  E.g. Its the world series, we arent going to sit Papi, sorry Youk, you are playing 3rd even though you havent done it in a few years because we certainly not going to bench Papi or play him at 3rd.

They moved Rafaela because of bad roster construction and injuries that gave him no other option. If there weren't injuries to the MIF, Rafaela wouldn't have left CF. It was either that or play a guy who could barely OPS 700 in AAA. 

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, drewski6 said:

They didnt move Arod to 3rd base to make their D better, they moved Arod to 3rd base so they could get arod despite already having jeter.  Its not always about , "need to align the best way we can on D".

Ideal defensive alignment is less of a priority than hitting.

They moved ARod to 3b because Jeter was selfish and wouldn't move for the better defender. 

[drewski6]

1 hour ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

But why are there so many in Boston this decade that don't ignite cigars at the fireplace?

I dont think Boston/Cora are #1 in moving guys around.  I think we're like 4th.  So towards the top but not the top.  Again, I think its a league thing, not an us thing.  

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

They moved Rafaela because of bad roster construction and injuries that gave him no other option. If there weren't injuries to the MIF, Rafaela wouldn't have left CF. It was either that or play a guy who could barely OPS 700 in AAA. 

So they made the D worse but the overall team better because the offensive gain exceeded the defensive drop off.  And I agree.  And there would be other situations where I would jsut sub in your backup 2b rather than move Cedanne if for example, I had a better backup MIF, which you are also saying and I agree.

My point is that whether you sub in a backup 2b for a 2b when your 2b goes down or move a cf to 2b because your backup cf is better than your backup 2b and youd rather get the former in there, and its not really about defense its more about who is the best player overall....

We're agreeing here.  But teams dont try to have the best defense possible without any regard for the offense.  Otherwise, IKF would be starting.  And not every positional change or play a dude out of position is for defensive reasons.  Sometimes you play Duran at RF because thats how you fit in the best available 9 bats, not because Duran does great at RF when its a shorter throw.  Its not as much as about defense as you all make it.

Offense comes first.

[notin]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

Tovar, and Campy were good athletes, and could do things like that, but not all are. I heard one poster on here say that, because Mookie has moved around to different positions that Raffy should have done the same thing like Raffy is the same athlete as Mookie is. Not even close there on who’s a lot better athlete, and a bad comparison to boot.

That’s not what was said.  What was said was that Mookie changed positions without complaining, and in fact even practiced those positions just in case, and did all that because it was for the benefit of the team.  Devers, on the other hand, complained about any and every such suggestion.  

Not the same at all. The original statement was about willingness and attitude, not athleticism. You didn’t even come close to paraphrasing it correctly…

[drewski6]

12 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

They moved ARod to 3b because Jeter was selfish and wouldn't move for the better defender. 

well, no example is perfect and there are always secondary reasons.  But my point is simply that guys get moved around, a lot, to fit the best 9 bats in.  Not every positional change is made to optimize the D.  ANd I disagree that this points to bad roster construction.  Because I dont think great roster construction is having 9 guys playing their ideal position.  I think hitting is significantly more important than defense (and pitching).

I dont think playing a CF at RF or playing a 3b at 2b is even a big deal.  They went out and got Durbin because he can play 2b or 3b.  Not because they plan to always play him at 1 vs the other.  Im sure Durbin is better at 2b or 3b (and lets not make it an argument about which one, because I dont care). But Im sure hes not a lets say 85.7 defensive 2b and an 85.7 defensive 3b.  Hes obviously (even if slightly) better at one or the other, and Im not sure which one, and I dont care.  They like that he can play both and that adds to his value.  ANd when you scrutinize it and maybe decide hes a 91 defensive 3b and an 88 defensive 2b and then you decide youll only ever play him at 3b, you just made the player worse.  Because you took away his defensive versatility which was an asset.

[drewski6]

Offense (50%) = pitching (35%) + defense (15%)

I will die on this hill

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, drewski6 said:

Id prefer Eaton in RF when Abreu sits (if its due to lefty splits).  If its injury and someone has to be out there for like 15-20 games. including righty on the mound - I would think ....thats close but I lean Duran because playing RF without experience with RF is how you get hurt, and I think Duran is more durable.

I could see Eaton in RF vs LHPs, when Abreu is sitting out. (LF when Duran sits.)

[moonslav59]

15 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

They moved ARod to 3b because Jeter was selfish and wouldn't move for the better defender. 

Agreed, but I wonder if they even bothered to ask the princess.

[drewski6]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Agreed, but I wonder if they even bothered to ask the princess.

Okay but why did they go out and get ARod in the first place despite having an established SS?  It wasnt because they thought that they would make the overall D better. Regarding who would be moved, it was a move for the bat.  A lot of times, maybe even most, guys get moved to fit in another bat.  Not everything is defense, defense, defense.

[notin]

10 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Offense (50%) = pitching (35%) + defense (15%)

I will die on this hill

Being a Sox fan alone, you should know that’s not true.  Most of us grew up with teams and lineups that were at or near the AL in runs scored, but were average to bad at pitching and, in many cases, defense, and those teams missed out on the (admittedly smaller) postseason altogether.  Think late 1970’s to early 1980’s.  (Maybe you’re too young for those teams?) And they’re hardly the only team to fit this mold.

Like most things in baseball, there is no winning formula. Teams can win titles on the backs of pitching, offense, bullpen, or any combination.
 

I suppose if there is any singular universal requirement, it’s probably defense.  No matter how well you hit or pitch, it’s tough to keep winning when the opposing team gets 4 or more outs per inning…

[drewski6]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

Being a Sox fan alone, you should know that’s not true.  Most of us grew up with teams and lineups that were at or near the AL in runs scored, but were average to bad at pitching and, in many cases, defense, and those teams missed out on the (admittedly smaller) postseason altogether.  Think late 1970’s to early 1980’s.  (Maybe you’re too young for those teams?) And they’re hardly the only team to fit this mold.

Like most things in baseball, there is no winning formula. Teams can win titles on the backs of pitching, offense, bullpen, or any combination.
 

I suppose if there is any singular universal requirement, it’s probably defense.  No matter how well you hit or pitch, it’s tough to keep winning when the opposing team gets 4 or more outs per inning…

All D , no O players are cheap.  So many things in baseball have changed, except that.  Its for a reason.

Yes, there is a point, where your D is so bad that it prevents you from doing anythig.  Same with pitching and same with offense.  All 3 can sink you.

But run creation matters just as much as run prevention, an 8-7 victory counts just as much as 1-0, and run prevention is split between pitching and defense.  They rob from each other in terms of importance.  A great pitcher gets a lot of strikeouts, or gets weak pop ups or weak grounders or lazy flies (uses strong D less).  A great D gets pitchers out of jams (takes pressure off pitching).  Great pitching diminishes the return of great D and vise-versa.  

[moonslav59]

19 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Okay but why did they go out and get ARod in the first place despite having an established SS?  It wasnt because they thought that they would make the overall D better. Regarding who would be moved, it was a move for the bat.  A lot of times, maybe even most, guys get moved to fit in another bat.  Not everything is defense, defense, defense.

Of course the move was made for the bat, but that doesn't mean the defense should be ignored.

I felt thew same about not moving Bogey to 2B, when we go Story, but maybe Story's arm was not ready for SS. Ideally, that would have been the time to move Bogey to 3B and Devers to 1B. That's a way better defense.

[moonslav59]

1. Anthony LF

2. Rafaela CF

3. Duran RF

4. Abreu DH

5. IKF 3B

6. Mayer 2B

7. Sogard 1B

8. Capra SS

9. Delay C

[mvp 78]

Looks like there will be some Yophery action for you sickos to watch today. 

[mvp 78]

DHuran put a charge into that one. 

[notin]

2 hours ago, Old Red said:

Tovar, and Campy were good athletes, and could do things like that, but not all are. I heard one poster on here say that, because Mookie has moved around to different positions that Raffy should have done the same thing like Raffy is the same athlete as Mookie is. Not even close there on who’s a lot better athlete, and a bad comparison to boot.

Playing all 9 positions in one game is usually more of a gimmick than a demonstration of versatility.  In the case of Bett Campaneris, in his 19 year career, it was the only game in which he played 4 positions (P, C, 1b and RF) and one of 2 games for a fifth (CF).  
 

Shane Halter, Andrew Romine and Scott Sheldon also accomplished this feat.  All 5 players who have done it did so in games after September 1st when their team was probably just playing out the string and the manager decided to give the fans something special to see…

[iortiz]

Bello simply can't finish batters. A lot of times ahead in the counts but ends up losing the battles because he doesn't trust in his stuff. Guy is and always will be a mediocre pitcher.

[drewski6]

33 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Of course the move was made for the bat, but that doesn't mean the defense should be ignored.

I felt thew same about not moving Bogey to 2B, when we go Story, but maybe Story's arm was not ready for SS. Ideally, that would have been the time to move Bogey to 3B and Devers to 1B. That's a way better defense.

I agree that defense should not be ignored. Im saying not every positional change is to improve the defense.  Sometimes its to fit in another quality bat.