The 2025 postseason, post-Red Sox

[notin]

4 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

TOR and LAD both spent boatloads on their team this season. Seems to have worked out. The Rays model is below .500 the past two seasons and just found a new owner which will cause a bunch of FO guys to leave this offseason. Sinking ship.

The Mets spent even more…

[moonslav59]

40 minutes ago, notin said:

The Mets spent even more…

That's debatable with differed money.

[notin]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

That's debatable with differed money.

Deferred money is still spent.  If you don’t believe me, ask MasterCard…

[moonslav59]

9 minutes ago, notin said:

Deferred money is still spent.  If you don’t believe me, ask MasterCard…

Yes, and with it the Dodgers spend more.

I will take $100M today rather than $10M a year for 11, 12 or even 13 years.

[Duran Is The Man]

supposedly, the Dodgers have $100M coming off the books this winter. they'll sign Tucker. and anybody else they want. count on it.

[Bellhorn04]

12 hours ago, notin said:

The Mets spent even more…

Of course, there will always be smart big spenders and there will always be stupid big spenders.

The Dodgers are very smart and very big, and it's a scary prospect for the game in general.  

[Bellhorn04]

17 hours ago, Kimmi said:

There are also teams that spent boatloads this season and failed to make the playoffs.  There are teams who didn't spend boatloads and did make the playoffs.  

AND, the playoffs are a crapshoot. 

IF the Dodgers win it this year it'll be back to backs and 3 titles in 6 years.  When you have 4 ace level pitchers in Ohtani, Yamamoto, Snell and Glasnow and they're all healthy, it might negate the crapshoot factor to some extent.

All that said, I totally respect your philosophy about spending and the fact that you never waver from it.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

49 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

IF the Dodgers win it this year it'll be back to backs and 3 titles in 6 years.

(not a Mookie post, I swear)

A National League team hasn't won back-to-back World Series in half a century.

Toronto has, though, from the AL, in '92-93...

But we all know the player LA has; he's not a pitcher, but an ex-Red Sox postseason star.

Yes... Kike, King of Klocktober!

[drewski6]

16 hours ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

I never advocated for buying All-Stars at every position like the Yankees used to, or buying aces for every turn through the rotation like LA. But cutting corners obviously isn't giving the Sox much of a fighting chance this decade.

Boston doesn't have to blow money on every big name free agent every year, but there are always certain talents available at positions of need. The Sox needed a top outfielder like Springer when he was a free agent, and the contract he signed with Toronto is comparable to Story's, but the fiscally fickle front fluffice didn't have to pay the tax -- and celebrated online. No fans did.

Springer won the World Series with five home runs vs. the Dodgers nine seasons ago, and his homer last night won the pennant for Toronto (after taking a 96 mph fastball off his kneecap over the weekend). It was his fourth HR of this postseason.

Who really cares about his WAR if he's still getting it done? '25 regular season: 32 HR, .309 BA, .959 OPS.

Youve been making great points for weeks, heres some things I would add to your points (in agreement) ...

1. Does Boston the city of Boston, us, not deserve to be on the same playing field with LA, NY, Philly....we are NOT Tampa, we are not Oklahoma city or Kansas. LA , NY , CH all get 2 teams, you could argue we are the biggest US metropolitan area with 1 city.  Why do we allow cheap owners to get us to believe that we should celebrate their bank accounts?

2. Frankly, Im happy with anybody who is not JH getting JH's money.  He has TOO MUCH.  Id rather some young guy get a large piece of JHs GIGANTIC fortune. Share the wealth.  I hope he gets all the speeding tickets.

3. I assure you, JH is not breaking even. Hes profitable.  Generally , when greedy ownership sucks all the resources out of a business and doesnt invest back in, we look at that negatively. But baseball owners manipulate us into believing that we are part of the "house" or the "club". We are not. And it does not help any of our lives one bit that Red Sox in recent years need to shed money to spend money.

4. They can tell you that being at a financial disadvantage isnt as much of a disadvantage as it is.  But the gap is only widening.  We now have for 2 years running , the last 2 teams standing are high payroll teams. The Rays are under .500 in recent years. Their glory years resulted in 0 championships in 30 years but they would get a playoff experience here and there, and those were the good years. Look at Pitt, Cincy. These teams have to struggle for YEARS to get a small window when maybe things time well and you have a few good prospects coming of age at the same time. But the clocks moves so fast on them. And you are flipping them because they are going to get expensive soon, when it feels like just yesterday they were the young up and comers and you were like finally , someone breaks out young enough for us to have some control.

Its all manipulation, its all propoganda. DOnt root for bank accounts.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

On 10/20/2025 at 1:02 AM, d-money said:

Am i the only one rooting for the blue jays? I think they have a better shot than the mariners against the dodgers. Hope they win tomorrow. 

I was rooting for the Jays for just this reason.  Besides Toronto has great fans.  

[notin]

16 hours ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

I never advocated for buying All-Stars at every position like the Yankees used to, or buying aces for every turn through the rotation like LA. But cutting corners obviously isn't giving the Sox much of a fighting chance this decade.

Boston doesn't have to blow money on every big name free agent every year, but there are always certain talents available at positions of need. The Sox needed a top outfielder like Springer when he was a free agent, and the contract he signed with Toronto is comparable to Story's, but the fiscally fickle front fluffice didn't have to pay the tax -- and celebrated online. No fans did.

Springer won the World Series with five home runs vs. the Dodgers nine seasons ago, and his homer last night won the pennant for Toronto (after taking a 96 mph fastball off his kneecap over the weekend). It was his fourth HR of this postseason.

Who really cares about his WAR if he's still getting it done? '25 regular season: 32 HR, .309 BA, .959 OPS.

Didn’t you cite WAR as a deterrent for Hoskins and Bell?  That was exactly why I brought it up…

[notin]

30 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Youve been making great points for weeks, heres some things I would add to your points (in agreement) ...

1. Does Boston the city of Boston, us, not deserve to be on the same playing field with LA, NY, Philly....we are NOT Tampa, we are not Oklahoma city or Kansas. LA , NY , CH all get 2 teams, you could argue we are the biggest US metropolitan area with 1 city.  Why do we allow cheap owners to get us to believe that we should celebrate their bank accounts?

2. Frankly, Im happy with anybody who is not JH getting JH's money.  He has TOO MUCH.  Id rather some young guy get a large piece of JHs GIGANTIC fortune. Share the wealth.  I hope he gets all the speeding tickets.

3. I assure you, JH is not breaking even. Hes profitable.  Generally , when greedy ownership sucks all the resources out of a business and doesnt invest back in, we look at that negatively. But baseball owners manipulate us into believing that we are part of the "house" or the "club". We are not. And it does not help any of our lives one bit that Red Sox in recent years need to shed money to spend money.

4. They can tell you that being at a financial disadvantage isnt as much of a disadvantage as it is.  But the gap is only widening.  We now have for 2 years running , the last 2 teams standing are high payroll teams. The Rays are under .500 in recent years. Their glory years resulted in 0 championships in 30 years but they would get a playoff experience here and there, and those were the good years. Look at Pitt, Cincy. These teams have to struggle for YEARS to get a small window when maybe things time well and you have a few good prospects coming of age at the same time. But the clocks moves so fast on them. And you are flipping them because they are going to get expensive soon, when it feels like just yesterday they were the young up and comers and you were like finally , someone breaks out young enough for us to have some control.

Its all manipulation, its all propoganda. DOnt root for bank accounts.

It doesn’t help that Boston is saddled with media that lives pushing conspiracy theories.  This past year, I kept seeing stories about Devers being traded solely so Liverpool could afford their new star.  This story was concocted because bad news sells, unlike good news.  And it ignored that 1) Liverpool FC is far wealthier than the Sox and 2) that star (Florian Wirtz, who apparently was not Arya’s fencing instructor) made peanuts compared to Devers.

[Bellhorn04]

51 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Youve been making great points for weeks, heres some things I would add to your points (in agreement) ...

1. Does Boston the city of Boston, us, not deserve to be on the same playing field with LA, NY, Philly....we are NOT Tampa, we are not Oklahoma city or Kansas. LA , NY , CH all get 2 teams, you could argue we are the biggest US metropolitan area with 1 city.  Why do we allow cheap owners to get us to believe that we should celebrate their bank accounts?

2. Frankly, Im happy with anybody who is not JH getting JH's money.  He has TOO MUCH.  Id rather some young guy get a large piece of JHs GIGANTIC fortune. Share the wealth.  I hope he gets all the speeding tickets.

3. I assure you, JH is not breaking even. Hes profitable.  Generally , when greedy ownership sucks all the resources out of a business and doesnt invest back in, we look at that negatively. But baseball owners manipulate us into believing that we are part of the "house" or the "club". We are not. And it does not help any of our lives one bit that Red Sox in recent years need to shed money to spend money.

4. They can tell you that being at a financial disadvantage isnt as much of a disadvantage as it is.  But the gap is only widening.  We now have for 2 years running , the last 2 teams standing are high payroll teams. The Rays are under .500 in recent years. Their glory years resulted in 0 championships in 30 years but they would get a playoff experience here and there, and those were the good years. Look at Pitt, Cincy. These teams have to struggle for YEARS to get a small window when maybe things time well and you have a few good prospects coming of age at the same time. But the clocks moves so fast on them. And you are flipping them because they are going to get expensive soon, when it feels like just yesterday they were the young up and comers and you were like finally , someone breaks out young enough for us to have some control.

Its all manipulation, its all propoganda. DOnt root for bank accounts.

We have to keep in mind that the Sox are owned by Fenway Sports Group, and it is indeed a large group of investors.  Henry is the largest shareholder but does not even own a majority of shares any more.  A private capital company called Redbird Capital acquired a 10% stake in FSG a few years ago with a big infusion of cash that FSG needed because of COVID losses.  

So our complaints now can't just be directed at Henry.  He can rightly say that he's not necessarily making all the calls.  That's not necessarily good for us, of course.

I'm actually relieved that they handed out all those extensions.  That was a good sign that there's long term commitment to success. 

It doesn't mean they're going to spend like wild men, though, that's for sure.

Anyway big changes are probably coming in the next CBA.

 

[drewski6]

32 minutes ago, notin said:

It doesn’t help that Boston is saddled with media that lives pushing conspiracy theories.  This past year, I kept seeing stories about Devers being traded solely so Liverpool could afford their new star.  This story was concocted because bad news sells, unlike good news.  And it ignored that 1) Liverpool FC is far wealthier than the Sox and 2) that star (Florian Wirtz, who apparently was not Arya’s fencing instructor) made peanuts compared to Devers.

I agree with this. I read all the nonsense and its obvious nonsense. I do not think they are punishing us or using us as a vehicle to fund other investments or anything like that.

What I do think - is that theyve spread themselves too thin, and dont put as much time and passion into the red sox project as its now one of many, and im not sure you can keep up with the dodgers with this approach.  But what bothers me more than the frugality is the lazinessssss.

You cant tell me they are actually trying when they looked at verdugo like 4 years in a row and said yep - we're good here. Theres just no compete.

Bloom was the anti-urgent. He wasnt all bad , but he was patient to a fault. And Breslow has botched 2 deadlines with a simlar low effort approach.

[drewski6]

20 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We have to keep in mind that the Sox are owned by Fenway Sports Group, and it is indeed a large group of investors.  Henry is the largest shareholder but does not even own a majority of shares any more.  A private capital company called Redbird Capital acquired a 10% stake in FSG a few years ago with a big infusion of cash that FSG needed because of COVID losses.  

So our complaints now can't just be directed at Henry.  He can rightly say that he's not necessarily making all the calls.  That's not necessarily good for us, of course.

I'm actually relieved that they handed out all those extensions.  That was a good sign that there's long term commitment to success. 

It doesn't mean they're going to spend like wild men, though, that's for sure.

Anyway big changes are probably coming in the next CBA.

 

HOnestly, Henry and the entire ownersip group doesnt bother me as much as those making excuses for them.  Stop making excuses for billionaire hoarders. THey arent going to see your post and welcome you to the club. STOP LICKING BOOTS

Thats all i ask

[mvp 78]

24 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We have to keep in mind that the Sox are owned by Fenway Sports Group, and it is indeed a large group of investors.  Henry is the largest shareholder but does not even own a majority of shares any more.  A private capital company called Redbird Capital acquired a 10% stake in FSG a few years ago with a big infusion of cash that FSG needed because of COVID losses.  

So our complaints now can't just be directed at Henry.  He can rightly say that he's not necessarily making all the calls.  That's not necessarily good for us, of course.

I'm actually relieved that they handed out all those extensions.  That was a good sign that there's long term commitment to success. 

It doesn't mean they're going to spend like wild men, though, that's for sure.

Anyway big changes are probably coming in the next CBA.

 

I'm sure they were REALLY struggling after one year of COVID. They were barely a going concern before COVID and then BAM! Wow, unbelievable that they were able to get through that. 🤏🎻

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

HOnestly, Henry and the entire ownersip group doesnt bother me as much as those making excuses for them.  Stop making excuses for billionaire hoarders. THey arent going to see your post and welcome you to the club. STOP LICKING BOOTS

Thats all i ask

I'm not making excuses for anyone.  At the end of the day they're gonna do what they're gonna do and there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it other than find a new team.    

[drewski6]

The problem with baseball the world is that there are too many people carrying so much water for billionaires because they were tricked into thinking that if they think like an exploiter, they'll magically jump classes or that some online billionaire is going to discover them and be like "wow, you think like us" and their lives will be transformed.

If you sell out to these billionaires, on the off-chance that you get noticed, you'll get a head pat at best.  They wont even let you lick their dirty napkin.

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'm not making excuses for anyone.  At the end of the day they're gonna do what they're gonna do and there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it other than find a new team.    

I shouldnt have responded to your post with my rant, as it appears it was directed at you and that wasnt my intent.

[drewski6]

2 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'm not making excuses for anyone.  At the end of the day they're gonna do what they're gonna do and there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it other than find a new team.    

But there is one thing I can do about it. Shame the fans of JH's wallet.

[Bellhorn04]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I'm sure they were REALLY struggling after one year of COVID. They were barely a going concern before COVID and then BAM! Wow, unbelievable that they were able to get through that. 🤏🎻

Just trying to explain why Redbird Capital now owns 10% of our team.  A few of the more cynical ones on Sons of Sam Horn blame Redbird Capital for the team pulling back on spending - "Gerry Cardinale needs his quarterly dividend" etc.

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, drewski6 said:

I shouldnt have responded to your post with my rant, as it appears it was directed at you and that wasnt my intent.

No worries drewski, I enjoy your posts.  It's good to have some passion here.  I've become pretty analytical about it all, I have to admit.

[drewski6]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

No worries drewski, I enjoy your posts.  It's good to have some passion here.  I've become pretty analytical about it all, I have to admit.

Between now and the end of the week, I predict that I will alternate between rabid fan and indifferent analyst at least 6 more times.  Maybe 5, we're alrady halfway through wedsnesday.

[drewski6]

If it ever appears that im being unfair or aggressive or yelling at anybody here....I promise you that I am using you as a stand in for some of my good friends (who I lvoe dearly) 

My friend Joey, he is a season ticket package (not 80 games) holder. But he pays for like that 20 game package and goes to fenway. He goes when we are out of it. He doesnt stress about losses. Hell never cancel his tickets. He says "I just want a team that isnt embarassing". Every year, he has this especially optimistic view of all our players. He thinks we can (and will) beat the doders with casas and yoshida. He told me everyday that Verdugo was good and I was too hard on him.  HE really wanted Justin Turner back and James Paxton and JD Martinez back. He thinks those were the mistakes. Every year we argue postdeadline over whether the sox botched another one or whether "they'll be fine". Every time we make a trade he gasps. He is perenially scared of giving up someone who he has grown to like. Ive been in fantasy leagues with him. Ive never seen him make a single trade. Cuz his guys are better than your guys. He honestly believes it.  He panicks whenever one of his teams makes a trade.  He always makes excuses for ownership and is always in favor of just rolling it forward.

I love my friend Joey, I babysit his kids for free.  I hang out with him all the time and we never bicker in person (we bicker a lot over text).

I have this other friend who is just so optimistic its annoying. Every year he thinks the PC friars are winning the NCAA basketball national championship (he honestly thinks this). He predicted a super bowl for the patriots every year during the mac jones era. Every one. He really thinks this. He thinks everyone who puts on the boston uniform is awesome.

I love him too.

But I am arguing them using stand-ins. BUt dont worry , I give it to them too. And sometimes I regret how passionately I come at them.

[moonslav59]

17 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I think the Sox have done a pretty good job building up a solid foundation of young players, many of whom are pre-arb or locked up for many years at reasonable rates. 

They pulled the wool over on their fans with the "we will be competitive this year" sham, but all the while they were methodically doing some things right. 

The next step involves making strategic investments at 3, maybe 4 of our weakest areas, and this time not with wings and prayers, but with actual solid projectable talent- proven and for real. Of course, nothing is for certain, but clearly guys like Buehler, Sandoval, Giolito, Kluber, Wacha, Hill, Richards and Perez were shots in the dark. That has to end.

The trade for Crochet and subsequent extension, along with locking up 4 kids over the past 2 winters, bodes well for the new direction this team has taken. However, it's not enough. We need to go bold. We may not have to emulate the Mets & Dodgers, but we have to do better. No more one-and-dones. No more returning from injury but was great 1-3 years ago guys. We gotta give to get.

Luckily, this is a good year for power bats who play 1B or 3B, well at least they try to. Luckily, we have teams very interested in Duran or Abreu, and we have a guy like Anthony that won't be a step down when replacing the guy we trade.

It's not rocket science. It's not "we gotta spend like the Dodger." It's not "let's sign 5 mid level guys," either. To me, it's very simple and doable. We may even be able to pull it off and still reset the tax line for 2027.

1 Bold trade for a #2 SP, Power RHB at 3B or 1B.

1 Bold signing (Corner infielder or #2 SP)

1 semi-major signing like Hoskins, Naylor, Merrill Kelly, Gleyber Torres or maybe not so "semi" E Suarez, depending on just how bold the first two guys ended up being.

3 Major additions. (Maybe add Matz and some MiLB depth.)

We can maybe be creative and dump some salary in order to raise the quality of FA signings, but just trading Duran & Campbell saves us over $15M AAV and would bring back one of the 3 needed players- perhaps at less AAV. Try to dump some of Hicks & Yoshida's salaries, even if we have to give something with them and or pay down a sizeable chunk of their deals. Just add $5-15M AAV to the winter budget and we can maximize the 2 signings we can and SHOULD make.

Just do it!

I really do think we can add 3 major players, and we should focus on more quality than quantity.

Since the tear down starting with the let go's of Kimbrel & Kelly and then the Betts trade, we've worked on deepening the roster, often with barely average players and promising prospects, but we are beyond that phase, now.

[drewski6]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Just trying to explain why Redbird Capital now owns 10% of our team.  A few of the more cynical ones on Sons of Sam Horn blame Redbird Capital for the team pulling back on spending - "Gerry Cardinale needs his quarterly dividend" etc.

Ive got a cynical take for you.  Redbird capital are fans of the cardinals (its in the freaking name) and are bitter about 2004 and 2013 and bought into our organization to get their "revenge is a dish best served cold"

Seriously, whose dumb idea was it to let a "Redbird" group buy into our ownership mix when 2 of the last 4 freaking championships we have BEATEN UP on red birds!

Its like hiring a company called "Mr Weasel" to protect your henhouse! Ever think this dude might be a plant for big weasel?

[notin]

14 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

supposedly, the Dodgers have $100M coming off the books this winter. they'll sign Tucker. and anybody else they want. count on it.

 The Dodgers have $59mill coming off the books, headlined by Conforto ($17mill) and Kirby Yates ($13mill).  They have 6 potential arbitration cases, none for anyone “essential”, totaling about another $17mill.  The biggest arbs are Evan Phillips ($6.1mill this year) and Tony Gonsolin ($5.4mill).  Any or all could realistically be non-tendered, giving them up to about $76mill freed up…

[moonslav59]

I'm not sure I'd use the word "laziness," but there was certainly no sense of urgency after 2018. We let Kimbrel & Kelly go and did nothing to replace them, then followed that up with the Betts trade. There was no sense of urgency in 2020, because there was no need for it. The shocker of 2021 actually spurned the only significant deadline activity from Nate onwards. That's one deadline in 7 years.

The 2021 season caught them off guard, and they sorta lucked into Schwarber returning from an injury and Robles doing very well. (They also added Iggy and Shaw, later.) Maybe the Devers trade made them think 2025 was a write-off season, despite how well we were looking near the deadline. Remember, Anthony, Abreu and others were not hurt, yet and Bregman was back and hitting over 1.100 in the 5 games before the deadline.

No sense of urgency. They made their offseason plans and moves. They refuse to overpay, and that's what happens at deadlines. Maybe there are too many hands to go through to get major things approved, but I doubt that's it. There seems to be a sense of complacency and that the main goal is to have fans believe we have a shot and the excitement level being just high enough to keep raking in the money, hand over fist.

We are clearly in the midst of a serious "window" that could be at least 3 years open- more if we invest in strengthening and extending it. I know we keep saying, "This winter should show us how serious they really are." Last winter, it looked like we made a major step in the direction, then we dump Devers, sit on our hands at the deadline, then watch Bregman opt out and likely Gio, too. We are back at the exact same place as NOV 2024, except a few kids got extended along with Crochet. Not all is quite as bad, but unless we do something more long-lasting, it looks like more of the same as a strong possibility.

This is not the time to continue the sham. At least there was an excuse for 2022-2024: we weren't 2-3 key players away. Now, we are. Do something about it, dudes!

[moonslav59]

7 minutes ago, notin said:

 The Dodgers have $59mill coming off the books, headlined by Conforto ($17mill) and Kirby Yates ($13mill).  They have 6 potential arbitration cases, none for anyone “essential”, totaling about another $17mill.  The biggest arbs are Evan Phillips ($6.1mill this year) and Tony Gonsolin ($5.4mill).  Any or all could realistically be non-tendered, giving them up to about $76mill freed up…

I was gonna ask where the $100M number came from.

It's pretty amazing they have 5 players make $23M or more in 2026 (4 over $25M.) Yamo starts making $30M in '27. They have 6 other players making $12-17M.

The Mets have 4 players making $20M+ but 8 making $11-19M.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

48 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This is not the time to continue the sham. At least there was an excuse for 2022-2024: we weren't 2-3 key players away. Now, we are. Do something about it, dudes!

This is the post I was waiting for -- and trying futilely to articulate in my own.

Note to notin: I did cite career negative dWARs of both Hoskins and Bell to show how craptacular they'd improve our D (but only because I can't seem to find all the other metrics at MVP's fingertips)... bottom line -- what's the point of adding anyone if they're not going to be legitimate UPGRADES?

And nothing against moonslav, whose lists we always appreciate all offseason, but the 2026 Red Sox need to add more than decent players -- especially if we lose Bregman, OUR LONE ALL-STAR REGULAR. When I say decent, that includes a power hitter who may sock 40 homers but strikeout 200 times -- we need less Ks more than we need more HRs... change. the. culture.

Seattle just lost the pennant partially because in the 2nd inning of a tie game with two on and no outs, they sac bunted, so their #8 batter, Leo Rivas, could whiff and strand both. Rivas was 1-for-14 with 7 Ks in the ALCS -- if you're going to bunt them over for him, make him bunt, too -- at least then he might put the ball in play!!!   

Why talk about the M's? Because their production and flaws are similar to ours (except they're loaded with longball guys, while we lead the world in doubles).