Old is new again - I remodeled the offseason blueprint as the trade deadline blueprint

[Hitch]

18 hours ago, jad said:

Except that there was no 'locker-room cancer'; this was a myth perpetuated by Breslow to make the 'deal' more palatable to fans, and as shown on this very board, it worked perfectly.

Devers made the move palatable to some fans because he wouldn't do what was right for the team. End of story. People can be angry at the way the FO (mis)managed this whole thing, and still be angry at Devers for his selfish behaviour. 

[Bellhorn04]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

He was wrong for it, but it doesn't mean there was an issue in the clubhouse because of it. 

Cora said that it wasn't a hustling issue. Cora said that he had a groin problem he had been working through. I don't know why that isn't a good enough explanation. I've seen enough highlights of MLBers not running out plays at first that the Devers play barely registered to me. 

Sorry, I didn't realize Cora had added that clarification about the groin issue.

[Bellhorn04]

30 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Devers made the move palatable to some fans because he wouldn't do what was right for the team. End of story. People can be angry at the way the FO (mis)managed this whole thing, and still be angry at Devers for his selfish behaviour. 

And I find it hard to believe that this was something Breslow really wanted to do all along.  The trade might be good for the Sox long term, but it clearly hurts the team's chances for 2025.  Breslow knows this and he knows that isn't the best thing for his career in Boston, working for a man with as little patience as Henry.  

[mvp 78]

18 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

working for a man with as little patience as Henry.  

How can JH be the owner of a team that is going to be SUSTAINABLE year in and year out when he acts in this manner? That's what I don't understand. 

[Hitch]

26 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

And I find it hard to believe that this was something Breslow really wanted to do all along.  The trade might be good for the Sox long term, but it clearly hurts the team's chances for 2025.  Breslow knows this and he knows that isn't the best thing for his career in Boston, working for a man with as little patience as Henry.  

I can't judge that. I just don't have enough evidence either way so I don't think on it. I can see all arguments being true when it comes to this particular aspect.

[Bellhorn04]

31 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

How can JH be the owner of a team that is going to be SUSTAINABLE year in and year out when he acts in this manner? That's what I don't understand. 

Up until 2019 he was impatient but successful.  As we've talked about many times, he may have gotten an inflated opinion of his own acumen on how to run a baseball team.

[jdc69]

1 hour ago, Hitch said:

Devers made the move palatable to some fans because he wouldn't do what was right for the team. End of story. People can be angry at the way the FO (mis)managed this whole thing, and still be angry at Devers for his selfish behaviour. 

Record wise we are a worse team than last year and we were supposed to be better. But thats ok because everything was looking up, we even sweep the Yankees but then we trade our best player. If that is palatable, I'd hate to taste unpalatable.

Right now Devers is playing on a playoff bound team, I guess we showed him.

[mvp 78]

26 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Up until 2019 he was impatient but successful.  As we've talked about many times, he may have gotten an inflated opinion of his own acumen on how to run a baseball team.

Without Theo, I'm not sure where JH or the Sox are. First two Sox WS are mostly on Theo. 2013 was largely a Theo team with a good offseason shopping spree by Ben. 2018 included a core of Theo guys Mookie, JBJ, Xander, Vazquez. It was another GM that "fed the monster" and got that 2018 team over the top. Ben, Bloom and Breslow aren't guys that will consistently be able to do it here IMO. 

Ben 315-333

Bloom 272-274

Breslow 121-121

And JH prefers the Ben/Bloom/Breslow path...

[Bellhorn04]

21 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Without Theo, I'm not sure where JH or the Sox are. First two Sox WS are mostly on Theo. 2013 was largely a Theo team with a good offseason shopping spree by Ben. 2018 included a core of Theo guys Mookie, JBJ, Xander, Vazquez. It was another GM that "fed the monster" and got that 2018 team over the top. Ben, Bloom and Breslow aren't guys that will consistently be able to do it here IMO. 

Ben 315-333

Bloom 272-274

Breslow 121-121

And JH prefers the Ben/Bloom/Breslow path...

And Dombrowski is doing just fine with the Phils.

All this probably grinds JH's gears a bit - assuming he's human.

[Nick]

I can wait patiently. We need to play little bit over .500. Get some reinforcement not only at the trade deadline but get as many players back from IL. Then at some point we need go on a serious run.

We need Bregman to come back as soon as he can. Looks like Buehler is first one out. 

It appears Kutter will not return any time soon.

I have no confidence in Houck.

So that leaves us with Crochet and Bello. 

We need for guys like Hicks to get off the IL. See what he can do with 100mph pitch. 

Is Kyle Harrison even an option for the stretch run?

Our infield defense should get better with the return of Bregman. Then I don't have to see Hamilton as much. Bregman, Mayer and Story should be pretty sound defensively.

Rafaela has stepped up his game. Stellar defense to go with .721 OPS. It's .918 in June.

We need a full time 1B to bridge the gap to Casas. Not sure how much the sox are relying on him in 2026.

We have tons of holes but Pitching comes first. Pitching, Pitching and more Pitching.

 

[curbsidecorgi67]

Sell and get ready for next year.

Out this trade deadline: Anybody expiring. Bregman, Giolito, Buehler, Chapman, Hendriks, Refsnyder, etc.

Sean Murphy in at the 2025 TDL. Bo Bichette in free agency during the off-season. Nico Hoerner in as soon as possible, or in free agency next off-season.

The team below calculates for well-over 90 WAR in a conservative projection, with a payroll around $200mm.

2026 Lineup

• Duran (CF) 
• Bichette (SS) 
• Casas (1B)
• Abreu (RF)
• Murphy (C) 
• Yoshida (DH)
• Anthony (LF)
• Hoerner (2B) 
• Mayer (3B)

Bench

• Narvaez (C)
• Story (INF)
• Rafaela (OF/INF)
• Campbell (1B/DH/UTIL)
• Romy (1B/UTIL) - AAA
• Hamilton (SS/2B) - AAA

Rotation

• Crochet
• Houck
• Sandoval
• Bello
• Crawford
• Harrison/Dobbins/Criswell
• Perales/Early/Sandlin/Paez

[curbsidecorgi67]

2 hours ago, jdc69 said:

Record wise we are a worse team than last year and we were supposed to be better. But thats ok because everything was looking up, we even sweep the Yankees but then we trade our best player. If that is palatable, I'd hate to taste unpalatable.

Right now Devers is playing on a playoff bound team, I guess we showed him.

Maybe we can revisit this sentiment sometime in the next 10 years when Devers loses his power and becomes a negative -2 WAR DH earning $30mm. O/U age 34.5?

[Brock Beauchamp]

13 minutes ago, curbsidecorgi67 said:

Sell and get ready for next year.

Out this trade deadline: Anybody expiring. Bregman, Giolito, Buehler, Chapman, Hendriks, Refsnyder, etc.

Sean Murphy in at the 2025 TDL. Bo Bichette in free agency during the off-season. Nico Hoerner in as soon as possible, or in free agency next off-season.

The team below calculates for well-over 90 WAR in a conservative projection, with a payroll around $200mm.

2026 Lineup

• Duran (CF) 
• Bichette (SS) 
• Casas (1B)
• Abreu (RF)
• Murphy (C) 
• Yoshida (DH)
• Anthony (LF)
• Hoerner (2B) 
• Mayer (3B)

Bench

• Narvaez (C)
• Story (INF)
• Rafaela (OF/INF)
• Campbell (1B/DH/UTIL)
• Romy (1B/UTIL) - AAA
• Hamilton (SS/2B) - AAA

Rotation

• Crochet
• Houck
• Sandoval
• Bello
• Crawford
• Harrison/Dobbins/Criswell
• Perales/Early/Sandlin/Paez

Welcome to Talk Sox!

[mvp 78]

53 minutes ago, curbsidecorgi67 said:

Maybe we can revisit this sentiment sometime in the next 10 years when Devers loses his power and becomes a negative -2 WAR DH earning $30mm. O/U age 34.5?

That would give him 6 more productive seasons I guess. I think the Giants would take that and eat the last two seasons. 

[drewski6]

5 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

And I find it hard to believe that this was something Breslow really wanted to do all along.  The trade might be good for the Sox long term, but it clearly hurts the team's chances for 2025.  Breslow knows this and he knows that isn't the best thing for his career in Boston, working for a man with as little patience as Henry.  

Im not sure he knows this, as he seemed quite confident that our win total will be higher via addition by subtraction. Unless you think hes lying or spinning, to which i say : what else is new w these guys

[drewski6]

5 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

How can JH be the owner of a team that is going to be SUSTAINABLE year in and year out when he acts in this manner? That's what I don't understand. 

Im expecting them to trade 2 of the big 3 prospects next. Its just knee-jerk reaction followed by knee-jerk reaction in the opposite direction

[Larry Cook]

I think there are two issues affecting the locker room now. One needs to addressed by management and one should be handled internally! 
 

1.) beuhler - we got beuhlered again last night and in the locker room, players know whether  a guy has talent, or is injured or playing out the season. It is time for bres-slow to figure out how he is going to handle  beuhler!!!

2.) shoddy defense - thus is for Cora to handle internally so there is no finger pointing or snide comments that fester and divide a locker room 

 

[moonslav59]

19 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Im expecting them to trade 2 of the big 3 prospects next. Its just knee-jerk reaction followed by knee-jerk reaction in the opposite direction

This is one area of knee jerk reactions they have avoided for a long time, until the Crochet trade. There was a long gap between the Sale trade and the Crochet deal.

The highest prospects traded was Beeks for Nate (2018 under DD) and Aldo Ramirez (2021 under Bloom.)

I think JH views the farm as his ticket to low cost players. We probably feel like we can get what we need by trading players like Duran or Abreu and replacing them with Anthony, Campbell or Jh Garcia and maybe even trading Story with Mayer, Arias and Campbell in mind for a future key stone combination at a very low cost. Hell, we may decide to trade Bregman, so Mayer can play 3B until Story's deal expires.

I could see us trading Chapman, too, if we go full reboot mode.

[moonslav59]

So, I guess Cora was rolling his eyes at the groin injury.

LMAO.

[jdc69]

2 hours ago, curbsidecorgi67 said:

Maybe we can revisit this sentiment sometime in the next 10 years when Devers loses his power and becomes a negative -2 WAR DH earning $30mm. O/U age 34.5?

Who knows but I thought it was about having a good team now where the prospects can slide in as seamlessly as possible and keep it all going. But I'm not sure it matters who we trade for or acquire, if our front office and managers are in charge. We had a raking Devers, a raking, healthy Bregman, a steal of a catcher in Narvaez, everything we could've ever asked out of Crochet and Chapman, an easy schedule to start out the season, a weakened AL and Yankees and we were still hovering around 500. I think MLB wanted us to succeed and we still couldn't capitalize. 

[Hitch]

5 hours ago, jdc69 said:

Record wise we are a worse team than last year and we were supposed to be better. But thats ok because everything was looking up, we even sweep the Yankees but then we trade our best player. If that is palatable, I'd hate to taste unpalatable.

Right now Devers is playing on a playoff bound team, I guess we showed him.

I mean, what do you want from people? Some of us are pissed the guy was willing to sacrifice the team over his own ego. Some of us are not particularly impressed by his "ill play anywhere - they're the boss" comments the moment he's at a new club. Some us are a bit annoyed by his "I haven't been this happy in a long time" comments, or his offering himself up for post match interviews when they couldn't get a sniff when he was at the Sox. And we can be all this and still be annoyed with the FO for how they handled things on their end.

I'll miss his bat. I won't miss him even a little bit.

[Hitch]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

So, I guess Cora was rolling his eyes at the groin injury.

LMAO.

Is there any video of this?

[drewski6]

9 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This is one area of knee jerk reactions they have avoided for a long time, until the Crochet trade. There was a long gap between the Sale trade and the Crochet deal.

The highest prospects traded was Beeks for Nate (2018 under DD) and Aldo Ramirez (2021 under Bloom.)

I think JH views the farm as his ticket to low cost players. We probably feel like we can get what we need by trading players like Duran or Abreu and replacing them with Anthony, Campbell or Jh Garcia and maybe even trading Story with Mayer, Arias and Campbell in mind for a future key stone combination at a very low cost. Hell, we may decide to trade Bregman, so Mayer can play 3B until Story's deal expires.

I could see us trading Chapman, too, if we go full reboot mode.

They wont, they never sell. They'll wait until its fruitless to buy, make a very weak attempt at buying and then blame the long odds for another fizzle year.

[drewski6]

9 minutes ago, jdc69 said:

Who knows but I thought it was about having a good team now where the prospects can slide in as seamlessly as possible and keep it all going. But I'm not sure it matters who we trade for or acquire, if our front office and managers are in charge. We had a raking Devers, a raking, healthy Bregman, a steal of a catcher in Narvaez, everything we could've ever asked out of Crochet and Chapman, an easy schedule to start out the season, a weakened AL and Yankees and we were still hovering around 500. I think MLB wanted us to succeed and we still couldn't capitalize. 

well said, lost in this year is how much broke right for us

[moonslav59]

8 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Is there any video of this?

Maybe google it?

I remember when it happened. There was a lot of body language, but of course, Cora covered for his player and denied it was about dogging it.

While we may not be hearing any players or coaches giving any specifics on clubhouse issues, I find it odd that I have not heard a single player come out and praise Devers for being a great teammate or missing his dugout and clubhouse presence. Sure, they miss his bat, as I do, too.

Who know, maybe Cora was right, and maybe Devers was fine in the clubhouse. I never felt there was an issue before, this year, so I could be wrong. It's hard to prove anything based on body language, things left unsaid and Cora defending his players as usual.

[moonslav59]

12 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

They wont, they never sell. They'll wait until its fruitless to buy, make a very weak attempt at buying and then blame the long odds for another fizzle year.

I really hate buying at the deadline. It's expensive, in terms of overpaying for 2 month rentals.

I do think Brez made a very strong effort to not have to buy at this deadline. He built up a decent rotation depth to at least 10 men deep, I think the statement "waiting until it's fruitless" was more true of Bloom & Co. Brez made a solid attempt, last winter, and he realizes it will be a great overpay to get a pitcher, now.

I'd rather get a Crochet in the winter than a guy Like Kikuchi from 2024, who actually did very well, after the trade to HOU. The Astros gave up a lot, and then lost him after 2 months.

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

I really hate buying at the deadline. It's expensive, in terms of overpaying for 2 month rentals.

I do think Brez made a very strong effort to not have to buy at this deadline. He built up a decent rotation depth to at least 10 men deep, I think the statement "waiting until it's fruitless" was more true of Bloom & Co. Brez made a solid attempt, last winter, and he realizes it will be a great overpay to get a pitcher, now.

I'd rather get a Crochet in the winter than a guy Like Kikuchi from 2024, who actually did very well, after the trade to HOU. The Astros gave up a lot, and then lost him after 2 months.

Sure, its possible that Im not giving enough consideration to "new sheriff in town" but I saw Breslow wait and wait and wait in free agency, and then get a little lucky with Bregman.  Which is Bloom-esque. I consider the Crochet trade a no-brainer, so Im not over the moon on Breslow. As in , hes hasnt earned my full confidence.

I honestly think that if we wait until the deadline it doesnt matter who we get.  We need talent now. Thats a bloom move to wait and wait and wait.

And Im not sure I wanna pay as much as it will cost for a cost-controlled, good pitcher with term.  It will cost so much and the dude will just wind up hurt.

Build through offense.  

If they wanna sell - maybe I could get on board with it. It would be better than the last 5 years of just complacency , cheer-leading, keeping mediocre players , having a mediocre team.

[Maxbialystock]

23 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I really hate buying at the deadline. It's expensive, in terms of overpaying for 2 month rentals.

I do think Brez made a very strong effort to not have to buy at this deadline. He built up a decent rotation depth to at least 10 men deep, I think the statement "waiting until it's fruitless" was more true of Bloom & Co. Brez made a solid attempt, last winter, and he realizes it will be a great overpay to get a pitcher, now.

I'd rather get a Crochet in the winter than a guy Like Kikuchi from 2024, who actually did very well, after the trade to HOU. The Astros gave up a lot, and then lost him after 2 months.

Makes sense.  

[moonslav59]

16 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Sure, its possible that Im not giving enough consideration to "new sheriff in town" but I saw Breslow wait and wait and wait in free agency, and then get a little lucky with Bregman.  Which is Bloom-esque. I consider the Crochet trade a no-brainer, so Im not over the moon on Breslow. As in , hes hasnt earned my full confidence.

I honestly think that if we wait until the deadline it doesnt matter who we get.  We need talent now. Thats a bloom move to wait and wait and wait.

And Im not sure I wanna pay as much as it will cost for a cost-controlled, good pitcher with term.  It will cost so much and the dude will just wind up hurt.

Build through offense.  

If they wanna sell - maybe I could get on board with it. It would be better than the last 5 years of just complacency , cheer-leading, keeping mediocre players , having a mediocre team.

I hear you.

I'm not 100% sold on Brez, either. I had hoped he'd do more than he did, last deadline, but you know my feelings on the cost of most deadline deals. (Bloom's Schwarber deal beats any one Brez made.)

We do have a .500 team, again, and that sucks, but this is not the same team and system as 2022 and 2023. I see improvement and know it takes time.

[Nick]

What type of return can we expect for following?

Bregman

Duran

Chapman

Buehler

Giolito

Are we getting in return middle of the pack starters, relievers and position players.

Do we parade all of our young starters and find out what we have?

I'm thinking of Kyle Harrison, Hunter Dobbins, Richard Fitts, etc. Let's see what we have going into 2026.

What team can 'go for it' with the additions of Bregman, Duran and Chapman? What young, established starting pitcher can we get?