Article: Who’s the Red Sox Third Baseman? It's Messy

[Bellhorn04]

10 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Agreed. They cared more about keeping their primadonna stars happy.

The Yanks won quite a bit with Jeter at 3B, after ARod joined the team, but it was just one ring in 11 seasons with ARod and Jeter on the same team (2004-2014.)

Yeah right, because the playoffs have no crapshoot factor.

Forget the regular season records.  Only one ring = proof positive! 

[Jasonbay44]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

This piece is pure garbage.

When Jeter stayed at short, did that demonstrate the Yanks didn't care about winning? 

When Arod was traded to Yankees, I also don’t think they had the advanced defensive statistics and metrics we have now. Hell, Jeter was considered a good fielder during his prime and racked up many unwarranted gold gloves. It’s kind of hard to compare 2004 vs 2025.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

46 minutes ago, notin said:

That article is horrible.  It’s not even factually accurate.  “Jose Altuve changed positions.”  Past tense?  Are they referring to his two career games at SS?

And Alvarez switching to DH?  So selfless, the way he handled it when they asked “do you want to DH in Houston or play outfield in AAA?”

Even if they’re referring to Altuve potentially going to LF, it hasn’t exactly happened yet, and probably won’t since that move was proposed to accommodate Bregman.  Roster Resource (granted, unofficial) still lists him as their starting 2b, probably because their only INF on the bench is Mauricio Dubón.  Doubtful the Astros move Altuve to LF to accommodate Dubon…

Doesn't change the fact that keeping devers at 3rd for his ego is not prioritizing winning.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

This piece is pure garbage.

When Jeter stayed at short, did that demonstrate the Yanks didn't care about winning? 

The Yanks were not coming off of several years of missing the playoffs with a few of those seasons in last place. Completely different scenario.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah right, because the playoffs have no crapshoot factor.

Forget the regular season records.  Only one ring = proof positive! 

I actually pointed out they won a lot, so I'm not sure my point was all about rings.

They could have been better with Jeter at 2B or 3B and ARod at SS.... ring or no ring.

[moonslav59]

56 minutes ago, Jasonbay44 said:

When Arod was traded to Yankees, I also don’t think they had the advanced defensive statistics and metrics we have now. Hell, Jeter was considered a good fielder during his prime and racked up many unwarranted gold gloves. It’s kind of hard to compare 2004 vs 2025.

Many of us were aware Jeter was overrated on D, at that time, but it was not easily supported by data and metrics, true.

[Bellhorn04]

6 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I actually pointed out they won a lot, so I'm not sure my point was all about rings.

They could have been better with Jeter at 2B or 3B and ARod at SS.... ring or no ring.

Fine, but you were clearly using the fact they only won one ring to validate your point.    

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Fine, but you were clearly using the fact they only won one ring to validate your point.    

I think they would have been better with ARod at SS: better season records and better chance of winning a second ring. A better team.

They chose to be worse.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't disagree with the general point that Jeter at short was not the best arrangement.

I just don't think Sox fans are in any position to accuse the Yanks of not caring about winning.

The Yanks haven't been under .500 since 1992.

The Sox have done it 6 times since 2012.

I hate the Yanks but I respect numbers.

[moonslav59]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I don't disagree with the general point that Jeter at short was not the best arrangement.

I just don't think Sox fans are in any position to accuse the Yanks of not caring about winning.

The Yanks haven't been under .500 since 1992.

The Sox have done it 6 times since 2012.

I hate the Yanks but I respect numbers.

On one move, it was not about winning. It does not mean everything they did was not geared towards winning.

They could have been a better team with Jeter off SS. They chose not to do so.

That was my point: not that the Yanks tried to lose.

[jdc69]

I personally think it was making winning a priority by keeping Jeter on SS. Arod was coming off being a cry baby on a losing team mainly because they couldn't get any players because of his never seen before monstrous contract. To take him and replace him with Jeter would be ludicrous, unless Jeter agreed. Jeter numbers weren't as good but he was clutch when it mattered. Arod....not so much. The Devers/Bregman situation isn't that though. I would, I guess keep Devers on 3rd for now. 

[moonslav59]

49 minutes ago, jdc69 said:

I personally think it was making winning a priority by keeping Jeter on SS. Arod was coming off being a cry baby on a losing team mainly because they couldn't get any players because of his never seen before monstrous contract. To take him and replace him with Jeter would be ludicrous, unless Jeter agreed. Jeter numbers weren't as good but he was clutch when it mattered. Arod....not so much. The Devers/Bregman situation isn't that though. I would, I guess keep Devers on 3rd for now. 

Jeter was the worst defensive SS ever to play so long at the position, in my memory.

The metrics supported my opinion, before I even knew metrics existed.

He made a few highlight reel plays that they never failed to show on Sports Center.

He was awful on D. ARod was okay, by the time he joined NY- certainly significantly better on D than Jeter.

Jeter did have a nice  arm from the long cut off slot. That's about it.

[Bellhorn04]

7 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Jeter was the worst defensive SS ever to play so long at the position, in my memory.

The metrics supported my opinion, before I even knew metrics existed.

He made a few highlight reel plays that they never failed to show on Sports Center.

He was awful on D. ARod was okay, by the time he joined NY- certainly significantly better on D than Jeter.

Jeter did have a nice  arm from the long cut off slot. That's about it.

Jeter did have one other strength - he was sure-handed and had a low error rate.  

The stats certainly bear out that his range was abysmal.

[Bellhorn04]

Anyway, the parallels between the Jeter/ARod situation and the Devers/Bregman situation can't be lightly dismissed at this point.  The Yankees handled it with zero evident drama but plenty of outside criticism.

The Sox are quickly loading up on the drama part.  

 

 

[notin]

17 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

The baseball pitcher? 

No, he was the editor of WWN back when it was at its most creative.  I can’t remember the other 3 people there with him…

[notin]

5 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Anyway, the parallels between the Jeter/ARod situation and the Devers/Bregman situation can't be lightly dismissed at this point.  The Yankees handled it with zero evident drama but plenty of outside criticism.

The Sox are quickly loading up on the drama part.  

 

 

And then the Yankees collapsed so badly in the playoffs, that over 20 years later, we can still watch a new docuseries on it.  
 

Maybe the 2025 Red Sox will be the first team ever to blow a 4-0 lead in the postseason 

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

8 minutes ago, notin said:

And then the Yankees collapsed so badly in the playoffs, that over 20 years later, we can still watch a new docuseries on it.  
 

Maybe the 2025 Red Sox will be the first team ever to blow a 4-0 lead in the postseason 

They have to make the postseason first.......

[Bellhorn04]

10 minutes ago, notin said:

And then the Yankees collapsed so badly in the playoffs, that over 20 years later, we can still watch a new docuseries on it.

If I had to pick just one thing that turned that series, I would go with Torre's decision in Game 5 to start the 8th with Gordon instead of Rivera.

[moonslav59]

I always knew Jeter was overrated on D, and the GGs were one of the biggest jokes in awards history.

It was only later that I became aware the metrics supported my opinion. From 1995 to 204, Jeter had the worst DRS in MLB, out of all positions! Granted, he played a lot, and DRS accumulates the more you play- to the good or bad, but still, a negative 109 DRS!

Among SSs:

-162 Jeter (15027 innings)

-74 HRam (9237)

-66 Betancourt (8239)

-37 J Reyes (12250)

Even if you rate these numbers per inning player, he's still the worst. ARod was +8 in 2768 innings, mostly at a younger age.

Since they started doing DRS,  maybe Michael Young was worse, but he played about 40% of the innings by Jeter, and Jeter doubled his negative DRS.

-162 Jeter

-81 Young

Amazingly, out of 107 players that had over 1,000 innings at SS, Jeter placed 4th in Error Rate.

He was last in Range and 4th to last in DPs.

He was last in UZR/150, which is scaled to per games:

-66 Jeter

-56 Young

-54 HRam

-51 Betancourt

Was Jeter the reason they won fewer rings than before? Who knows, but his D at a very key position in baseball made the team worse.

[mvp 78]

30 minutes ago, notin said:

No, he was the editor of WWN back when it was at its most creative.  I can’t remember the other 3 people there with him…

Unfortunately, I didn't hoard my old issues and a google search didn't help.

[Bellhorn04]

7 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

 

Was Jeter the reason they won fewer rings than before? Who knows, but his D at a very key position in baseball made the team worse.

They won 5 rings with Jeter after winning zero from 1979-1995.  Pretty hard to make a case there.

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

They won 5 rings with Jeter after winning zero from 1979-1995.  Pretty hard to make a case there.

Once they had a better SS in ARod, it made sense to move Jeter to 3b or 2b. After they got ARod, they only won one other WS after winning 4 previously. Jeter was a decent SS in his early 20's per the metrics. His first bad season wasn't until 2000. So the Yankees won 3 WS when Jeter was a "good" SS (3 in 4 years) and two when he was a "bad" SS (2 in 15 years). However, he had a good defensive season out of nowhere in 2009 (3 DRS) so maybe his good defense helped propel them to a title that season. If ARod's better defense had been at SS from 2004 on, maybe they win a few more? 

[Bellhorn04]

4 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Once they had a better SS in ARod, it made sense to move Jeter to 3b or 2b. After they got ARod, they only won one other WS after winning 4 previously. Jeter was a decent SS in his early 20's per the metrics. His first bad season wasn't until 2000. So the Yankees won 3 WS when Jeter was a "good" SS (3 in 4 years) and two when he was a "bad" SS (2 in 15 years). However, he had a good defensive season out of nowhere in 2009 (3 DRS) so maybe his good defense helped propel them to a title that season. If ARod's better defense had been at SS from 2004 on, maybe they win a few more? 

Yeah, just totally impossible to say.  ARod's bat disappeared in a lot of those postseasons they fell short, 2009 being the notable exception.

When it comes down to a small number of games like it does in the postseason, I think it's usually the pitching or the hitting that decides it.

  

 

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

34 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I always knew Jeter was overrated on D, and the GGs were one of the biggest jokes in awards history.

It was only later that I became aware the metrics supported my opinion. From 1995 to 204, Jeter had the worst DRS in MLB, out of all positions! Granted, he played a lot, and DRS accumulates the more you play- to the good or bad, but still, a negative 109 DRS!

Among SSs:

-162 Jeter (15027 innings)

-74 HRam (9237)

-66 Betancourt (8239)

-37 J Reyes (12250)

Even if you rate these numbers per inning player, he's still the worst. ARod was +8 in 2768 innings, mostly at a younger age.

Since they started doing DRS,  maybe Michael Young was worse, but he played about 40% of the innings by Jeter, and Jeter doubled his negative DRS.

-162 Jeter

-81 Young

Amazingly, out of 107 players that had over 1,000 innings at SS, Jeter placed 4th in Error Rate.

He was last in Range and 4th to last in DPs.

He was last in UZR/150, which is scaled to per games:

-66 Jeter

-56 Young

-54 HRam

-51 Betancourt

Was Jeter the reason they won fewer rings than before? Who knows, but his D at a very key position in baseball made the team worse.

Well, they did manage to win 5 rings with him at SS, so......

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

it's usually the pitching or the hitting that decides it.

  

 

Can't that be said about pretty much every game?

[mvp 78]

11 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Can't that be said about pretty much every game?

Per the gamethreads, it's the umpires a lot of times... 👎

[Bellhorn04]

32 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Can't that be said about pretty much every game?

"Pretty much every" is a tricky one. 

I mean, there are quite a few games where you can point to defensive lapses as a factor in the outcome.  The Red Sox have had some total clown shows on D the last few years.

 

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

If I had to pick just one thing that turned that series, I would go with Torre's decision in Game 5 to start the 8th with Gordon instead of Rivera.

I still can't believe none of the Yankees -- or all of the Yankees -- didn't just bunt in Game 6 on a crippled Schilling, with his skin stitched over the sheath of his tendon to keep his leg from falling off.

He needed a step ladder to get up on the rubber, and a shark cage to keep him upright.

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah, just totally impossible to say.  ARod's bat disappeared in a lot of those postseasons they fell short, 2009 being the notable exception.

When it comes down to a small number of games like it does in the postseason, I think it's usually the pitching or the hitting that decides it.

I agree that it's impossible to say. It's interesting that Jeter was a better defender earlier in his career and in 2009 when they won a few WS. I think it's better baseball to have your best defender play SS, but I understand why they had Jeter stay at SS. You don't know the butterfly effect of moving him off SS. Maybe he pouts and it tanks the franchise and he gets traded? 

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

They won 5 rings with Jeter after winning zero from 1979-1995.  Pretty hard to make a case there.

Why? He got worse as he aged. What does 5 have to do with a possible 6, 7 ot 8?

He helped them win with his bat. Hee was not a negative player. He just sucked on D.