Red Sox Spring Training

[moonslav59]

Story has gone so long without an extended "groove," I'm thinking this is helpful.

[moonslav59]

The NRI's Toro, Thompson and Eaton are really putting on a show, so far this spring.

[Old Red]

Good to see Whitlock pitch in the game today.

[moonslav59]

Sox have scored in all 8 innings, including crooked numbers in 5 of them.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

The NRI's Toro, Thompson and Eaton are really putting on a show, so far this spring.

Combined, the three are 19 for 65 (.292) with 8 HRs and 15 XBHs and 22 RBIs.

[Larry Cook]

7 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Why not "hope" the others do, too? (Without rushing them.)

Looks like abreau cannot be ready by the 27th either 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Larry Cook said:

Looks like abreau cannot be ready by the 27th either 

But hey, we got Roland the Headless THOMPSON Gunner, TORO, TORO, TORO and EATON disorders.

[Old Red]

Not good news for the Yankees? Garrett Cole had an MRI, and the Yankees are seeking a second opinion.

[notin]

14 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Not good news for the Yankees? Garrett Cole had an MRI, and the Yankees are seeking a second opinion.

It’s not Spring Training until Gerrit Cole has an MRI…

[Bellhorn04]

32 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Not good news for the Yankees? Garrett Cole had an MRI, and the Yankees are seeking a second opinion.

Grim news indeed.  

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

26 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Grim news indeed.  

My opinion is Kelly thinks it's no excuse for not participating in PFPs.

[Larry Cook]

16 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

But hey, we got Roland the Headless THOMPSON Gunner, TORO, TORO, TORO and EATON disorders.

Are any of these guys on the 40 man roster????

[dgalehouse]

4 hours ago, Old Red said:

Not good news for the Yankees? Garrett Cole had an MRI, and the Yankees are seeking a second opinion.

Pitching injuries keep happening. I think the pitch clock is definitely a factor. I also think that people like the pitch clock and the quicker games so they don't want to see that as a problem. Instead, they will point to velocity, the sweeper, Little League, etc.  But the fact is, with any strenuous activity, a certain amount of time is needed before repeating it. I think the injuries will continue to mount up . Very few pitchers are immune from this. 

[notin]

I doubt it's the pitch clock.  Pitchers like to blame every change that comes along.  Remember when Glasnow blamed his TJ on not being able to grip with foreign substances (aka cheat)?

The reality is pitchers throw harder every year, and nothing hurts them more than throwing harder.   In 2010, the average fastball was 91.6 mph.  In 2016, it was 92.6mph.   In 2024, it was up to 94.2 mph.  

And that is just in MLB.  Kids are throwing harder in high school than need be, because radar gun readings equate to scholarships and signing bonuses.  Giolito had TJ in high school because he was throwing 96-98 mph at 17 and 18.  No one needs to throw that hard to get high school hitters out.  But it worked for his draft status.

Anyone who throws that hard that often from high school into his MLB career is very likely to have arm injuries at some point.  The league isn't filled with ergonomic freaks like Nolan Ryan...

 

[dgalehouse]

23 minutes ago, notin said:

I doubt it's the pitch clock.  Pitchers like to blame every change that comes along.  Remember when Glasnow blamed his TJ on not being able to grip with foreign substances (aka cheat)?

The reality is pitchers throw harder every year, and nothing hurts them more than throwing harder.   In 2010, the average fastball was 91.6 mph.  In 2016, it was 92.6mph.   In 2024, it was up to 94.2 mph.  

And that is just in MLB.  Kids are throwing harder in high school than need be, because radar gun readings equate to scholarships and signing bonuses.  Giolito had TJ in high school because he was throwing 96-98 mph at 17 and 18.  No one needs to throw that hard to get high school hitters out.  But it worked for his draft status.

Anyone who throws that hard that often from high school into his MLB career is very likely to have arm injuries at some point.  The league isn't filled with ergonomic freaks like Nolan Ryan...

 

I think pitchers have always tried to throw as hard as they could.

 

25 minutes ago, notin said:

I doubt it's the pitch clock.  Pitchers like to blame every change that comes along.  Remember when Glasnow blamed his TJ on not being able to grip with foreign substances (aka cheat)?

The reality is pitchers throw harder every year, and nothing hurts them more than throwing harder.   In 2010, the average fastball was 91.6 mph.  In 2016, it was 92.6mph.   In 2024, it was up to 94.2 mph.  

And that is just in MLB.  Kids are throwing harder in high school than need be, because radar gun readings equate to scholarships and signing bonuses.  Giolito had TJ in high school because he was throwing 96-98 mph at 17 and 18.  No one needs to throw that hard to get high school hitters out.  But it worked for his draft status.

Anyone who throws that hard that often from high school into his MLB career is very likely to have arm injuries at some point.  The league isn't filled with ergonomic freaks like Nolan Ryan...

 

I think pitchers have always used maximum effort and thrown the fastball as hard as they could. Even in Little League.  Today, more of them are able to hit the high 90s with the heater. I think that is all the more reason they need a little more recovery time between pitches. As I said, most fans don't want to believe this because they like the shorter, faster paced games. So, I am going to be in the minority here, and I don't expect any rules changes at this point. 

[notin]

7 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

I think pitchers have always tried to throw as hard as they could.

 

I think pitchers have always used maximum effort and thrown the fastball as hard as they could. Even in Little League.  Today, more of them are able to hit the high 90s with the heater. I think that is all the more reason they need a little more recovery time between pitches. As I said, most fans don't want to believe this because they like the shorter, faster paced games. So, I am going to be in the minority here, and I don't expect any rules changes at this point. 

It’s not about throwing as hard as you can.  The reality is the “as hard as they can” has being increasing now for a while, and is us nearly 3mph over the past 15 years.  Why? I think it’s the focus on velocity that  has lead to work outs, exercises, and routines geared toward throwing harder and harder…

[dgalehouse]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

It’s not about throwing as hard as you can.  The reality is the “as hard as they can” has being increasing now for a while, and is us nearly 3mph over the past 15 years.  Why? I think it’s the focus on velocity that  has lead to work outs, exercises, and routines geared toward throwing harder and harder…

You see that in all sports. Athletes are throwing harder, kicking further, running faster, jumping higher , lifting more weight, etc.   There are a number of reasons for that.  And training methods is certainly one of them . But a certain recovery time is needed between repetitions. And I just think that 15 seconds , over and over again, is not enough time between pitches,  and contributes to the injuries we are seeing. That's about all I have on this topic. Have a nice day. 

[Bellhorn04]

15 hours ago, dgalehouse said:

I think pitchers have always used maximum effort and thrown the fastball as hard as they could. Even in Little League.  Today, more of them are able to hit the high 90s with the heater. I think that is all the more reason they need a little more recovery time between pitches. As I said, most fans don't want to believe this because they like the shorter, faster paced games. So, I am going to be in the minority here, and I don't expect any rules changes at this point. 

I don't know if this is true or not, but it's something that we should be able to get some clear data on, because the pitch clock changes came into effect for the 2023 season.  And obviously all the data on injuries to pitchers is readily available.  We'll see if there's a significant increase from 2023 forward.

[notin]

51 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I don't know if this is true or not, but it's something that we should be able to get some clear data on, because the pitch clock changes came into effect for the 2023 season.  And obviously all the data on injuries to pitchers is readily available.  We'll see if there's a significant increase from 2023 forward.

If this data is correct, it pretty much negates the pitch clock as the cause.

https://www.leanblog.org/2024/04/theres-no-special-cause-of-common-cause-variation-tommy-john-surgeries/

 

[Bellhorn04]

46 minutes ago, notin said:

If this data is correct, it pretty much negates the pitch click as the cause.

https://www.leanblog.org/2024/04/theres-no-special-cause-of-common-cause-variation-tommy-john-surgeries/

 

I'll assume this data is correct.  The only issue is that it may be too soon to draw any conclusions.  Because the effects of the pitch clock might be cumulative/long term.  I don't think anybody knows at this point.    

We do know that recovery time is a thing at the macro level (4 days between starts).  The pitch clock is about recovery time at the micro level.

[jad]

Good article.  Also, I wouldn't care if there were a rise in injurieies.  I don't want to sit through a 5 hour game or wait for Josh Beckett to walk around the mound between pitches like my dog determining which leg to raise on a fence post, just bec. a pitcher (or his mom) is worried about Tommy John.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

16 hours ago, dgalehouse said:

You see that in all sports. Athletes are throwing harder, kicking further, running faster, jumping higher , lifting more weight, etc.   There are a number of reasons for that.  And training methods is certainly one of them . But a certain recovery time is needed between repetitions. And I just think that 15 seconds , over and over again, is not enough time between pitches,  and contributes to the injuries we are seeing. That's about all I have on this topic. Have a nice day. 

All of this is true.  Which is why I never understood why we are not seeing home runs launched further than Reggie Jackson or Mickey Mantle hit them.  I was at Tiger Stadium a week after Jackson hit that transformer on the roof at the All Star Game. I couldn't hit that with a driver and a Titelist.    

[jad]

3 minutes ago, Yaz Fan Since 67 said:

All of this is true.  Which is why I never understood why we are not seeing home runs launched further than Reggie Jackson or Mickey Mantle hit them.  I was at Tiger Stadium a week after Jackson hit that transformer on the roof at the All Star Game. I couldn't hit that with a driver and a Titelist.    

Clearly it's the fault of the pitch clock, which doesn't allow them to dig in.   As in golf (or at least for the group in front of me), every hitter should be allowed time between pitches to check for wind, calculate the distance to a particular part of the wall, consult his scorecard notes, step out due to crowd noise, and mock-bounce the bat eight times off the plate.   

[notin]

15 hours ago, dgalehouse said:

You see that in all sports. Athletes are throwing harder, kicking further, running faster, jumping higher , lifting more weight, etc.   There are a number of reasons for that.  And training methods is certainly one of them . But a certain recovery time is needed between repetitions. And I just think that 15 seconds , over and over again, is not enough time between pitches,  and contributes to the injuries we are seeing. That's about all I have on this topic. Have a nice day. 

First of all, I think we were both wrong when we said “pitchers have always thrown as hard as possible.”  We’ve all seen All Star games where pitchers were typically watch throw 93-94mph are suddenly hitting 98-99mph.  Could be different radar guns, but it’s also possibly pitchers pacing themselves.  Certainly starting pitchers throw fewer IP than they did 15 years ago, and relievers throw more, and the role of the bullpen has expanded in both IP and roster spots. 

Shift Ban Supporter Freddie Freeman confirmed that nowadays it’s not so simple to go the other way because “everyone throws 95 mph.”  Maybe the reduced IP from starting pitchers throw fewer - an ongoing trend - appears to have encouraged pitchers to throw even harder.  Maybe pace themselves less. I could see this causing issues. Maybe.

Honestly looking over that blog data, there likely isn’t a single cause beyond simply pitching.  With 390 roster spots dedicated to probably 800-900 pitchers over the course of a season, the range in the number of MLB Tommy John candidates isnt so large, ranging from 1 (2005) to 11 (2014, 2021).  And none of them happened to a pitcher who started pitching that year.  Ergonomically, every pitcher is different, capable of handling different limits.  But over years of repetitive pitching motions, occasionally something will go wrong…
 

[notin]

50 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'll assume this data is correct.  The only issue is that it may be too soon to draw any conclusions.  Because the effects of the pitch clock might be cumulative/long term.  I don't think anybody knows at this point.    

We do know that recovery time is a thing at the macro level (4 days between starts).  The pitch clock is about recovery time at the micro level.

The data shows that same level of TJ surgeries were incurred in 2014 and 2015, back when a pitch clock was an ignored clause in the rule book.  Blaming one spike on them right now is not only premature, it ignores history.

And the pitch clock micro level thing ignores the obvious - was the previous way good? 15 seconds bad? 18 seconds good? 20 optimal?  And how much better, because 2024 wasn’t the high point for this surgery.  It might have been the high point for media stories about this surgery, but that’s not the same thing…

[notin]

57 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'll assume this data is correct.  The only issue is that it may be too soon to draw any conclusions.  Because the effects of the pitch clock might be cumulative/long term.  I don't think anybody knows at this point.    

We do know that recovery time is a thing at the macro level (4 days between starts).  The pitch clock is about recovery time at the micro level.

If the data is indeed correct, the increase in TJ at the MLB level was around 2012.  But was that because of some factor leading to more torn tendons? Or advances in the surgical procedure that allowed it to fix a wider range of injuries? Or some combo of both, since neither are simply static?

[Bellhorn04]

21 minutes ago, notin said:

If the data is indeed correct, the increase in TJ at the MLB level was around 2012.  But was that because of some factor leading to more torn tendons? Or advances in the surgical procedure that allowed it to fix a wider range of injuries? Or some combo of both, since neither are simply static?

Common sense suggests the increase in injuries has resulted from the effects on the arm of pitchers seeking max velocity and max spin.

I'm not suggesting the pitch clock is a big new factor, I'm just saying maybe it can't be ruled out as a new contributor until we have more data. 

[Bellhorn04]

The max velocity thing is huge.  Richard Fitts added a couple MPH to his fastball and suddenly people are much more excited about his potential as a starter.  Before this he was regarded as a back of the rotation guy at best, but now his ceiling looks higher.

It's no wonder guys keep chasing more of it. 

[notin]

30 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The max velocity thing is huge.  Richard Fitts added a couple MPH to his fastball and suddenly people are much more excited about his potential as a starter.  Before this he was regarded as a back of the rotation guy at best, but now his ceiling looks higher.

It's no wonder guys keep chasing more of it. 

Exactly.  
 

The pitch clock might have a long term effect on some pitchers, but determining it as the sole or even major cause for the “spike” in TJ surgeries in 2024 is not only premature, but completely ignores history.

The one thing we do know that ruins all pitchers is pitching.  And I’d think it’s likely multiple various aspects of pitching leads to that injury.  But honestly, it’s looking more like media fluff about the rash.  2024 fit in just fine with the timeline for the past decade plus.  And at some point, the scope of what the surgical procedure could handle was just as big of a factor as the injury.

And already calling the pitch clock even a significant contributor is right now simply screaming “correlation equals causation!!”  Its like listening to my late mother-in-law talk about home repairs, since she apparently believed her house was one giant holistic organism and changes made in any part of it could have negative consequences anywhere else (despite my father-in-law actually being a very handy guy).  Nevertheless she would say things to my wife like “oh, your father went and replaced the gutter guards, so now the drier doesn’t work.”  Or “your father went and installed those LED lights in the garage, so now we don’t get PBS!!” 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, jad said:

Clearly it's the fault of the pitch clock, which doesn't allow them to dig in.   As in golf (or at least for the group in front of me), every hitter should be allowed time between pitches to check for wind, calculate the distance to a particular part of the wall, consult his scorecard notes, step out due to crowd noise, and mock-bounce the bat eight times off the plate.   

Shush... he's about to hit the ball... the one that's not moving... don't anyone dare say, "Hey golfer, hey golfer - swing!" Shhhhhhhhhhhhh.....................