Taking the Cheap Way Hardly Ever Works

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Forgive my ignorance, but exactly what was "record setting"?

Most wins by a Sox team. (108 vs 105 in 1912.)

Only time in Red Sox history we won 3 straight division crowns.

Is two enough?

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

Most wins by a Sox team. (108 vs 105 in 1912.)

Only time in Red Sox history we won 3 straight division crowns.

Is two enough?

Ah, team records, got it.

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Ah, team records, got it.

Ok, how about a MLB record of 4 rings in the 21st Century?

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

15 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Ok, how about a MLB record of 4 rings in the 21st Century?

While impressive, that's not a record and the 21st century still has a long way to go.

[moonslav59]

10 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

While impressive, that's not a record and the 21st century still has a long way to go.

It's not a record?

Nobody else has more, and any record can still be topped.

[notin]

44 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's not a record?

Nobody else has more, and any record can still be topped.

1.  It does feel premature to call it a 21st century record with 76 years still remaining this century.  In 1919, the Sox had a 20th century “record” of 5 titles.  Did it last?  Do we ever even think of them as holding that “record?”

2. Of the 4 WS titles this century, one (2013) was built on shorter deals given to mid-tier and above players while avoiding long term deals for superstars.  It’s not “going cheap” but it’s also not the alternative anyone wants, either…

3. Not every record can still be topped.  For example, the Yankees hold the record for most WS titles in the 20th century.  I think that’s going to stand…

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

39 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's not a record?

Nobody else has more, and any record can still be topped.

No, it's not a record and, no, not every record can be topped.

Nobody can top the record for the most WS Championships for the 20th Century, as that century has ended.

Your "record" is like determining the winner in the 3rd inning of a 9 inning game.

 

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, notin said:

1.  It does feel premature to call it a 21st century record with 76 years still remaining this century.  In 1919, the Sox had a 20th century “record” of 5 titles.  Did it last?  Do we ever even think of them as holding that “record?”

2. Of the 4 WS titles this century, one (2013) was built on shorter deals given to mid-tier and above players while avoiding long term deals for superstars.  It’s not “going cheap” but it’s also not the alternative anyone wants, either…

3. Not every record can still be topped.  For example, the Yankees hold the record for most WS titles in the 20th century.  I think that’s going to stand…

Of course to all, but a record is a record until broken.

It is very likely a team will win more than 4 WS in this century, and it may not be BOS.

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

No, it's not a record and, no, not every record can be topped.

Nobody can top the record for the most WS Championships for the 20th Century, as that century has ended.

Your "record" is like determining the winner in the 3rd inning of a 9 inning game.

 

OK, if you count a century win total as a record, then we hold one, for now.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

OK, if you count a century win total as a record, then we hold one, for now.

No, because the century is far from over.

Again, that's like saying you won in the 3rd inning of a 9 inning game.

[Randy Red Sox]

Breslow has done a good job with the pitching staff given it seems he still doesn't have the mandate to spend. If I was to guess i would think the payroll currently is even lower that it ended last season albeit the offseason is still not over. I am sure there will be another 1 yr deal or 2 to come.

[moonslav59]

25 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

No, because the century is far from over.

Again, that's like saying you won in the 3rd inning of a 9 inning game.

So, nobody holds the HR record, because MLB is far from over.

I'm not saying we won anything. I even pointed out we can be passed, but as of now, we hold the record.

[moonslav59]

24 minutes ago, Randy Red Sox said:

Breslow has done a good job with the pitching staff given it seems he still doesn't have the mandate to spend. If I was to guess i would think the payroll currently is even lower that it ended last season albeit the offseason is still not over. I am sure there will be another 1 yr deal or 2 to come.

I'd really like to know, for sure, if every FA were lost out on was because JH & Co said no, or if Brez just decided no, on his won, on one or two.

My guess is JH has ended all of them, but maybe not.

The years thing is also something that may be an issue, but Brez did spend over $52M this winter ($21M Buehler, $10.75M/1 Chapman, $18.25M/2 Sandoval, $2.25M Wilson.) It's $62M if you count Hendriks from last year. Only Sandoval is on the books for 2026, so the AAV for 2025 is $43M w/o Hendriks or $48M counting him.

[Duran Is The Man]

26 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'd really like to know, for sure, if every FA were lost out on was because JH & Co said no, or if Brez just decided no, on his won, on one or two.

My guess is JH has ended all of them, but maybe not.

The years thing is also something that may be an issue, but Brez did spend over $52M this winter ($21M Buehler, $10.75M/1 Chapman, $18.25M/2 Sandoval, $2.25M Wilson.) It's $62M if you count Hendriks from last year. Only Sandoval is on the books for 2026, so the AAV for 2025 is $43M w/o Hendriks or $48M counting him.

spent over $52M, but how much went off the books from last year? isn't payroll about the same or less than last year?

[Randy Red Sox]

2 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

spent over $52M, but how much went off the books from last year? isn't payroll about the same or less than last year?

that was my question.  we let O'neil. Martin, Pivetta, and Janssen go just to name 4

[Randy Red Sox]

2 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I'd really like to know, for sure, if every FA were lost out on was because JH & Co said no, or if Brez just decided no, on his won, on one or two.

My guess is JH has ended all of them, but maybe not.

The years thing is also something that may be an issue, but Brez did spend over $52M this winter ($21M Buehler, $10.75M/1 Chapman, $18.25M/2 Sandoval, $2.25M Wilson.) It's $62M if you count Hendriks from last year. Only Sandoval is on the books for 2026, so the AAV for 2025 is $43M w/o Hendriks or $48M counting him.

my guess is that Henry nixed all the high end FA's. i think the Sox are pretty much done other than maybe a 1 yr deal for Grichuk and possibly a b/u C.  i am sure they will continue to try and dump Yoshida but nothing of value will come back other than a small amount of his deal.  

To me the rotation now looks like:

Crochet

Houck

Buehler

Bello

Crawford 

 

Whitlock will stay in the pen with Slaten, Chapman, Fulmer, Winkowski, Hendriks and one or two of our depth guys like Fitts, etc and Henry gets to keep the payroll down.

 

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

spent over $52M, but how much went off the books from last year? isn't payroll about the same or less than last year?

Indeed, and this on top of statements about the tax line not being an issue. It just gets worse on the BS.

My point was that we do some replacement spending, but these short term and "pillow" deals are tiring me out. I'd rather we spend $26M on 2 guys for 5-6 years than $2-$10M on several one and dones.

OK, we finally spent over $20M on an AAV (Bluehler at $21M and 1 year, of course,) the only one, except Story since who? JD? (Nate was technically a FA signing, but I count him as an extension, and not new blood.)

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Randy Red Sox said:

that was my question.  we let O'neil. Martin, Pivetta, and Janssen go just to name 4

1 hour ago, Randy Red Sox said:

my guess is that Henry nixed all the high end FA's. i think the Sox are pretty much done other than maybe a 1 yr deal for Grichuk and possibly a b/u C.  i am sure they will continue to try and dump Yoshida but nothing of value will come back other than a small amount of his deal.  

To me the rotation now looks like:

Crochet

Houck

Buehler

Bello

Crawford 

 

Whitlock will stay in the pen with Slaten, Chapman, Fulmer, Winkowski, Hendriks and one or two of our depth guys like Fitts, etc and Henry gets to keep the payroll down.

 

Yup.

Well, one main reason to try and dump most of Yoshida's contract was to save a few dollars and maybe stay under the tax line. That's not an issue, this winter, so we might as well give him a shot to get healthy and increase his trade value (or value to us.)

We aren't winning, this year, so I'd rather keep Campbell and Anthony in AAA, at least until another year of service is gained... maybe even 2, if we wait until 2026 has started. None of our big 3 prospects need to be added to the 40, this year.

To me, we are wasting one of Crochet's 2 years of control. Why trade 3 top 8 prospects for a 2 year player, if we plan on continuing the rebuild?

There is no cohesive plan with these guys. It all seems knee-jerk and reactionary with no proactive actions.

What's left on the plate, this winter? No great fits, and the ones that might be (Scott or Hoffman,) I doubt we are even considering making an offer.

I guess a Bregman signing might get my pulse back up, but he was never high on my list. To top it off, these clowns were talking about signing Alex to play 2B NOT 3B! The absurdity never ends with these guys.

[Duran Is The Man]

24 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Yup.

Well, one main reason to try and dump most of Yoshida's contract was to save a few dollars and maybe stay under the tax line. That's not an issue, this winter, so we might as well give him a shot to get healthy and increase his trade value (or value to us.)

We aren't winning, this year, so I'd rather keep Campbell and Anthony in AAA, at least until another year of service is gained... maybe even 2, if we wait until 2026 has started. None of our big 3 prospects need to be added to the 40, this year.

To me, we are wasting one of Crochet's 2 years of control. Why trade 3 top 8 prospects for a 2 year player, if we plan on continuing the rebuild?

There is no cohesive plan with these guys. It all seems knee-jerk and reactionary with no proactive actions.

What's left on the plate, this winter? No great fits, and the ones that might be (Scott or Hoffman,) I doubt we are even considering making an offer.

I guess a Bregman signing might get my pulse back up, but he was never high on my list. To top it off, these clowns were talking about signing Alex to play 2B NOT 3B! The absurdity never ends with these guys.

well said. the decisions they make (and don't make) can be truly mind-numbing. so much for Theo bringing back some sanity to this organization.

[moonslav59]

34 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

well said. the decisions they make (and don't make) can be truly mind-numbing. so much for Theo bringing back some sanity to this organization.

Would they listen to Theo and let him spend?

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Duran Is The Man said:

well said. the decisions they make (and don't make) can be truly mind-numbing. so much for Theo bringing back some sanity to this organization.

I feel like I owe an apology to you, Fred, Randy and the many others that have been ruthlessly slamming out FO for years. I felt like you guys went overboard, but now I realize I was underboard.

[notin]

4 hours ago, Randy Red Sox said:

my guess is that Henry nixed all the high end FA's. i think the Sox are pretty much done other than maybe a 1 yr deal for Grichuk and possibly a b/u C.  i am sure they will continue to try and dump Yoshida but nothing of value will come back other than a small amount of his deal.  

To me the rotation now looks like:

Crochet

Houck

Buehler

Bello

Crawford 

 

Whitlock will stay in the pen with Slaten, Chapman, Fulmer, Winkowski, Hendriks and one or two of our depth guys like Fitts, etc and Henry gets to keep the payroll down.

 

Giolito?

[moonslav59]

30 minutes ago, notin said:

Giolito?

He is supposed to be healthy by Feb 1st, so I think we hand him the 5th slot, unless he stumbles in ST'ing.

Crawford could really help eat innings in the pen and save the rest of the high leverage RP'ers from doing slop work.

I'd still like to see a solid pen arm added and maybe a RHB- I'm thinking cheap now, all the way. Maybe the best we can hope for is Estevez, Kittredge or Sewald and Grichuk or Profar (Trade Abreu or Rafaela?)

Sad, that we've reduced ourselves to hoping for scrubs.

[moonslav59]

Maybe Arendao is still in play, since STL will pay enough to make him cheaper than Bregman. I'd love to pry Helsely into the deal, but they want too much or want to pay less for Arenado.

Would Rafaela and Cespedes get us Arenado + $10M a year x 3 yrs? (Maybe add Fitts or Sandlin?)

Arendao's AAV is $30.5M - $5M from COL= $25.5, then minus $10M fro STL=$15.5, then minus $6.3M for Rafaela= $9.2M ... Just cheap enough for JH.

Hell, there I go hoping, again!

[notin]

52 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Maybe Arendao is still in play, since STL will pay enough to make him cheaper than Bregman. I'd love to pry Helsely into the deal, but they want too much or want to pay less for Arenado.

Would Rafaela and Cespedes get us Arenado + $10M a year x 3 yrs? (Maybe add Fitts or Sandlin?)

Arendao's AAV is $30.5M - $5M from COL= $25.5, then minus $10M fro STL=$15.5, then minus $6.3M for Rafaela= $9.2M ... Just cheap enough for JH.

Hell, there I go hoping, again!

f*** Arenado.  He doesn’t make sense unless the Sox can unload Yoshida.  And still not much even then, as his low -.700s OPS could probably also be replaced by Grissom.  Bregman makes more sense except that Cora sees him as a 2b solution for some reason.

I still think Abreu gets moved before April.  Hopefully a good defensive catcher is part of the return.  Pitt certainly could use Abreu and has catchers to spare, but unless they renew their lust for Henry Davis, I don’t see them sending Boston help behind the dish.  Joey Bart doesn’t float anyone’s boat.

[Bellhorn04]

15 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

OK, if you count a century win total as a record, then we hold one, for now.

Frankly until this thread I'd never heard of anything that was the best for a particular century called a "record".  

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

35 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Frankly until this thread I'd never heard of anything that was the best for a particular century called a "record".  

Abbey Road.

[Duran Is The Man]

10 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Would they listen to Theo and let him spend?

clearly not. like everyone else, i was happy he returned, but i'm not sure it's made any difference.

[Duran Is The Man]

8 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I feel like I owe an apology to you, Fred, Randy and the many others that have been ruthlessly slamming out FO for years. I felt like you guys went overboard, but now I realize I was underboard.

it's all good. i've said several times that i wish i had your optimism. 

every team makes bad decisions and the Sox are no different, but probably my biggest problem with Henry is not spending money that he clearly has to spend. if they were small market and didn't have it to spend then it would be different.

[Duran Is The Man]

6 hours ago, notin said:

f*** Arenado.  He doesn’t make sense unless the Sox can unload Yoshida.  And still not much even then, as his low -.700s OPS could probably also be replaced by Grissom.  Bregman makes more sense except that Cora sees him as a 2b solution for some reason.

I still think Abreu gets moved before April.  Hopefully a good defensive catcher is part of the return.  Pitt certainly could use Abreu and has catchers to spare, but unless they renew their lust for Henry Davis, I don’t see them sending Boston help behind the dish.  Joey Bart doesn’t float anyone’s boat.

yeah, i'm with you on Arenado. i think he's definitely on the downhill side of his career. i'd be ok with swapping him for Yoshida, maybe, but not giving up anything to do so.

i don't get this about Cora -his apparent unwillingness to shift Devers off of 3B. it's strange.