Red Sox ownership

[Randy Red Sox]

Would you trade Roman Anthony and Richard Fitts for Garrett Crochet?

 

Given the Sox outfield depth and likely upgrade Crochet provides over Fitts, there is an argument to make this deal…

 

sorry i have no idea who Garret Crochet is. ok so I just looked him up and I guess I would have to consider it but i doubt the CWS do

Edited June 11, 2024 by Randy Red Sox

[moonslav59]

sorry i have no idea who Garret Crochet is. ok so I just looked him up and I guess I would have to consider it but i doubt the CWS do

 

I think the idea is their mismanagement title might help us dupe them.

 

We have a boat load of everyday prospects. It should not go against our long term plan to build for the future by trading young everyday players/prospects for a young pitcher.

[notin]

I think the idea is their mismanagement title might help us dupe them.

 

We have a boat load of everyday prospects. It should not go against our long term plan to build for the future by trading young everyday players/prospects for a young pitcher.

 

That and the White Sox have said they’re open to moving Luis Robert and Crochet. It’s more than likely they mean “assuming you meet our price, which will not be considered cheap or fair by any measure.” Especially since both players can be controlled for 3 seasons beyond this one. So, no real rush here.

 

If it’s a “blow us out of the water with your offer” scenario, BTV deals are no longer relevant…

[moonslav59]

That and the White Sox have said they’re open to moving Luis Robert and Crochet. It’s more than likely they mean “assuming you meet our price, which will not be considered cheap or fair by any measure.” Especially since both players can be controlled for 3 seasons beyond this one. So, no real rush here.

 

If it’s a “blow us out of the water with your offer” scenario, BTV deals are no longer relevant…

 

No, it won't be cheap, and nobody is getting duped.

 

Other teams would offer a lot. I doub t we'd top anyone's offer.

[notin]

No, it won't be cheap, and nobody is getting duped.

 

Other teams would offer a lot. I doub t we'd top anyone's offer.

 

BTV would have accepted Anthony (51.1) and Fitts (4.8) for Crochet (53.5). But I doubt Getz would have. Again, he’s in no rush to move Crochet, unless you think his arbitration costs are going to get very steep very fast…

[moonslav59]

BTV would have accepted Anthony (51.1) and Fitts (4.8) for Crochet (53.5). But I doubt Getz would have. Again, he’s in no rush to move Crochet, unless you think his arbitration costs are going to get very steep very fast…

 

I really like Anthony, but our OF is strong and young, now.

 

I'd even offer Anthony, Fitts and more (any 2 from Lugo, Yorke, Meidroth, Castro, Paulino or Wikelman)

[Bellhorn04]

A lot is being made about Phillies fans and now Yankees fans taking over Fenway the last two series. Pretty embarrassing.

[Maxbialystock]

A lot is being made about Phillies fans and now Yankees fans taking over Fenway the last two series. Pretty embarrassing.

 

Except they aren't. I'm not saying you find can't Phillies or Yankees fans at Fenway because of course you can.

 

But two salient facts put those two rumors (Phillies fans and Yankees fans) to rest.

 

The first fact is that, season to date, the Sox are averaging 32K attendance, which is low--as it should be if the Sox fans are hoping to send a message to JH."

 

The second fact is actually several--the Fenway attendances for the 3 Phillies games and the one Yankees game so far: 35K, 33K, 34K, and 35K.

 

Now, if will, compare those latter numbers with the 32K average, and you can make an excellent case that the increase, which is less that freaking 10%, could well be because Sox fans themselves wanted to see the Phillies and the Yankees.

 

And, if you don't like that idea, we can agree a 5%-10% increase is because Phillies and Yankees fans want to see their guys play at one of the most famous (and vastly over-rated) ballparks in America. That still means that 90% of the butts in seats belong to Sox fans.

 

I used to go to Sox games at Camden Yards, and there were a whole lot of us well into the Peter Angelos era because Orioles fans were unhappy. Right now, June 15, 2024, the Orioles are having their second straight excellent season, sure to get to the postseason, and their attendance is 26,666, 19th in MLB.

[moonslav59]

Except they aren't. I'm not saying you find can't Phillies or Yankees fans at Fenway because of course you can.

 

But two salient facts put those two rumors (Phillies fans and Yankees fans) to rest.

 

The first fact is that, season to date, the Sox are averaging 32K attendance, which is low--as it should be if the Sox fans are hoping to send a message to JH."

 

The second fact is actually several--the Fenway attendances for the 3 Phillies games and the one Yankees game so far: 35K, 33K, 34K, and 35K.

 

Now, if will, compare those latter numbers with the 32K average, and you can make an excellent case that the increase, which is less that freaking 10%, could well be because Sox fans themselves wanted to see the Phillies and the Yankees.

 

And, if you don't like that idea, we can agree a 5%-10% increase is because Phillies and Yankees fans want to see their guys play at one of the most famous (and vastly over-rated) ballparks in America. That still means that 90% of the butts in seats belong to Sox fans.

 

I used to go to Sox games at Camden Yards, and there were a whole lot of us well into the Peter Angelos era because Orioles fans were unhappy. Right now, June 15, 2024, the Orioles are having their second straight excellent season, sure to get to the postseason, and their attendance is 26,666, 19th in MLB.

 

I'm not embarrassed by several Phillies and Yankee fans being in Fenway. I think Sox fans go to more away games than we see other fans come to Boston. That is still true, today.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not embarrassed by several Phillies and Yankee fans being in Fenway. I think Sox fans go to more away games than we see other fans come to Boston. That is still true, today.

 

I dunno, I was reading some comments by a guy who was at the game last night. He was surrounded by chanting Yankee fans in the stands and on his way out of the park. He said he's a long time ticket buyer and he's never experienced it anywhere near as bad as it was last night.

[dgalehouse]

Get real. Fenway was loaded with Phillies and Yankees fans. It wasn't just a few. Many, many Sox fans are fed up.

[Bellhorn04]

Get real. Fenway was loaded with Phillies and Yankees fans. It wasn't just a few. Many, many Sox fans are fed up.

 

Yeah, I think moon's a little in denial with "several".

[moonslav59]

Yeah, I think moon's a little in denial with "several".

 

Okay, much more than several, but my guess is 30k were Sox fans who did not have much cause to be vocal.

 

Should I feel bad it doesn’t bother me?

[Bellhorn04]

Incredible as it seems, Kennedy's last chat about the team underperforming and needing to go on a hot streak has turned out to have been fairly well timed.

[Hugh2]

Buying at the deadline might help reinvigerate a fan base too. We are in the playoffs right now, AND if we upgrade, fans will come back.

 

You spend money to make money, ownership needs to buy if they want fans to come back.

 

They don't, nor shouldn't empty the farm, and they don't need to

[mvp 78]

Incredible as it seems, Kennedy's last chat about the team underperforming and needing to go on a hot streak has turned out to have been fairly well timed.

 

He said that on June 1. They went 6-6 for the first 12 games after he said that.

 

If it was well timed, they wouldn't have waited 2 f***ing weeks to go on a run IMO.

[Maxbialystock]

He said that on June 1. They went 6-6 for the first 12 games after he said that.

 

If it was well timed, they wouldn't have waited 2 f***ing weeks to go on a run IMO.

 

Forget Kennedy and the front office. This thread is all about John Henry, and right now he has to be laughing his ass off because it's the low-cost no-names who have the Sox in the postseason hunt. Specifically, they "own" (temporarily) the 3d wild card lost with a measly .5 game lead over the Royals and are 1 game behind the Twins for the 2d place wild card slot.

 

Jansen @ $16M is over paid, but right now worth it, both because of his saves and because of the phone call to Cora to put him in. Devers @ $30M is also sort of worth it.

 

But the other 12 pitchers and other 12 positions players are the ones making by far the biggest contributions--and that's without Story ($22.5M), Giolito ($18M), Whitlock ($3.2M), Sale ($17M), Turner ($7M), and, really, Yoshida ($18M). That's $86M out of a total salary base of $182M basically down the drain this season. This is actually a $96M team and $45M of that goes to one closer and one third baseman.

 

One might even argue that the other 24 players are a $51M team currently with a .538 winning percentage and a shot at the postseason. That's not fair because Jansen and Devers have both contributed, but it's not far off the mark.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Maxbialystock

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Forget Kennedy and the front office. This thread is all about John Henry, and right now he has to be laughing his ass off because it's the low-cost no-names who have the Sox in the postseason hunt. Specifically, they "own" (temporarily) the 3d wild card lost with a measly .5 game lead over the Royals and are 1 game behind the Twins for the 2d place wild card slot.

 

Jansen @ $16M is over paid, but right now worth it, both because of his saves and because of the phone call to Cora to put him in. Devers @ $30M is also sort of worth it.

 

But the other 12 pitchers and other 12 positions players are the ones making by far the biggest contributions--and that's without Story ($22.5M), Giolito ($18M), Whitlock ($3.2M), Sale ($17M), Turner ($7M), and, really, Yoshida ($18M). That's $86M out of a total salary base of $182M basically down the drain this season. This is actually a $96M team and $45M of that goes to one closer and one third baseman.

 

One might even argue that the other 24 players are a $51M team currently with a .538 winning percentage and a shot at the postseason. That's not fair because Jansen and Devers have both contributed, but it's not far off the mark.

 

Let's not forget an astute businessman like Henry was talked into going against his better judgement more than once and signing Over-30 pitchers who were humungous busts in Boston.

 

Now that he's not falling for it -- except for Giolito (the lastest phantom signing) -- maybe he just should overpay Cora to stay and keep winning with rosters full of bargain guys.

[moonslav59]

Forget Kennedy and the front office. This thread is all about John Henry, and right now he has to be laughing his ass off because it's the low-cost no-names who have the Sox in the postseason hunt. Specifically, they "own" (temporarily) the 3d wild card lost with a measly .5 game lead over the Royals and are 1 game behind the Twins for the 2d place wild card slot.

 

Jansen @ $16M is over paid, but right now worth it, both because of his saves and because of the phone call to Cora to put him in. Devers @ $30M is also sort of worth it.

 

But the other 12 pitchers and other 12 positions players are the ones making by far the biggest contributions--and that's without Story ($22.5M), Giolito ($18M), Whitlock ($3.2M), Sale ($17M), Turner ($7M), and, really, Yoshida ($18M). That's $86M out of a total salary base of $182M basically down the drain this season. This is actually a $96M team and $45M of that goes to one closer and one third baseman.

 

One might even argue that the other 24 players are a $51M team currently with a .538 winning percentage and a shot at the postseason.

 

It won't be easy replacing Jansen, Martin, Pivetta and O'Neill's production at the same cost they were in 2024, but it should not take a lot more money to do so. Of course, with the bad luck/skills our GMs have had on spending, it's no sure bet we can spend double those 4 cost and even break even.

 

One of the best parts about our upcoming budget is the lack of major arb raises in 2025. Many of our best players are still pre-arb, thanks to the significant farm infusion over the past 3 years (thanks DD and Bloom.) Nothing is for certain on these kids continuing to do well or the expected infusion of more top prospects onto the 26 and 40, but it sure looks better than it did in 2020, or even last year.

 

IMO, JH is going to have to spend, and likely large and long on one or two players in the next 1-2 years, if we are going to have a real chance at being a top 3-4 team, again. If not, we will have to count on Brez being a genius to get us over the hump.

 

We can't look at our roster and future roster and assume 100% health and continued growth for a big chunk of our players. It seems natural to expect some step backs, next year from some of these kids doing very well, this year.

 

To me, our everyday players look set. We have depth at just about every position, except 1B. In some cases, counting top prospects in the mix, we go 3-4 deep. I do not think we can assume our pitching staff can keep this up without some major additions, and there don't seem to be a lot of top pitching prospects banging on the 26 man door. (Perales is out for over a year, and maybe Fitts is our best hope.) Losing Pivetta, Jansen and Martin will hurt. I'm not sure Pivetta has gotten the credit he deserves for being the most reliable and durable pitchers this team has had since we traded for him in 2020. He has not been great, and even was not very good for some stretches, but he took the ball every 5 days and gave the team a chance to win in a big chunk of his starts.

 

While the team has mostly sucked, since Pivetta joined, the teams W-L record is 47-45 in his starts.

[mvp 78]

Forget Kennedy and the front office. This thread is all about John Henry, and right now he has to be laughing his ass off because it's the low-cost no-names who have the Sox in the postseason hunt. Specifically, they "own" (temporarily) the 3d wild card lost with a measly .5 game lead over the Royals and are 1 game behind the Twins for the 2d place wild card slot.

 

Jansen @ $16M is over paid, but right now worth it, both because of his saves and because of the phone call to Cora to put him in. Devers @ $30M is also sort of worth it.

 

But the other 12 pitchers and other 12 positions players are the ones making by far the biggest contributions--and that's without Story ($22.5M), Giolito ($18M), Whitlock ($3.2M), Sale ($17M), Turner ($7M), and, really, Yoshida ($18M). That's $86M out of a total salary base of $182M basically down the drain this season. This is actually a $96M team and $45M of that goes to one closer and one third baseman.

 

One might even argue that the other 24 players are a $51M team currently with a .538 winning percentage and a shot at the postseason. That's not fair because Jansen and Devers have both contributed, but it's not far off the mark.

 

Jansen seems to have bought into this team. He wants the ball. To me, he's not overpaid. I'm fine with him.

[mvp 78]

Let's not forget an astute businessman like Henry was talked into going against his better judgement more than once and signing Over-30 pitchers who were humungous busts in Boston.

 

Now that he's not falling for it -- except for Giolito (the lastest phantom signing) -- maybe he just should overpay Cora to stay and keep winning with rosters full of bargain guys.

 

Cora is a very good to great manager. No reason not to overpay him since it doesn't count against a cap and Henry is making a s*** ton off this team anyway.

[moonslav59]

Cora is a very good to great manager. No reason not to overpay him since it doesn't count against a cap and Henry is making a s*** ton off this team anyway.

 

I totally agree. If Cora leaves over money, I'm jumping on the anti-JH bandwagon.

[notin]

Forget Kennedy and the front office. This thread is all about John Henry, and right now he has to be laughing his ass off because it's the low-cost no-names who have the Sox in the postseason hunt. Specifically, they "own" (temporarily) the 3d wild card lost with a measly .5 game lead over the Royals and are 1 game behind the Twins for the 2d place wild card slot.

 

Jansen @ $16M is over paid, but right now worth it, both because of his saves and because of the phone call to Cora to put him in. Devers @ $30M is also sort of worth it.

 

But the other 12 pitchers and other 12 positions players are the ones making by far the biggest contributions--and that's without Story ($22.5M), Giolito ($18M), Whitlock ($3.2M), Sale ($17M), Turner ($7M), and, really, Yoshida ($18M). That's $86M out of a total salary base of $182M basically down the drain this season. This is actually a $96M team and $45M of that goes to one closer and one third baseman.

 

One might even argue that the other 24 players are a $51M team currently with a .538 winning percentage and a shot at the postseason. That's not fair because Jansen and Devers have both contributed, but it's not far off the mark.

 

Does this bother people?

 

Sometimes I think people want the Sox to spend more than they want the Sox to win…

[notin]

Let's not forget an astute businessman like Henry was talked into going against his better judgement more than once and signing Over-30 pitchers who were humungous busts in Boston.

 

Now that he's not falling for it -- except for Giolito (the lastest phantom signing) -- maybe he just should overpay Cora to stay and keep winning with rosters full of bargain guys.

 

 

If the Sox could do that, it would be awesome…

Edited June 24, 2024 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

He said that on June 1. They went 6-6 for the first 12 games after he said that.

 

If it was well timed, they wouldn't have waited 2 f***ing weeks to go on a run IMO.

 

Harsh LOL

 

I said "fairly well", not "perfectly". 2 weeks is not really that long.

[Maxbialystock]

It won't be easy replacing Jansen, Martin, Pivetta and O'Neill's production at the same cost they were in 2024, but it should not take a lot more money to do so. Of course, with the bad luck/skills our GMs have had on spending, it's no sure bet we can spend double those 4 cost and even break even.

 

One of the best parts about our upcoming budget is the lack of major arb raises in 2025. Many of our best players are still pre-arb, thanks to the significant farm infusion over the past 3 years (thanks DD and Bloom.) Nothing is for certain on these kids continuing to do well or the expected infusion of more top prospects onto the 26 and 40, but it sure looks better than it did in 2020, or even last year.

 

IMO, JH is going to have to spend, and likely large and long on one or two players in the next 1-2 years, if we are going to have a real chance at being a top 3-4 team, again. If not, we will have to count on Brez being a genius to get us over the hump.

 

We can't look at our roster and future roster and assume 100% health and continued growth for a big chunk of our players. It seems natural to expect some step backs, next year from some of these kids doing very well, this year.

 

To me, our everyday players look set. We have depth at just about every position, except 1B. In some cases, counting top prospects in the mix, we go 3-4 deep. I do not think we can assume our pitching staff can keep this up without some major additions, and there don't seem to be a lot of top pitching prospects banging on the 26 man door. (Perales is out for over a year, and maybe Fitts is our best hope.) Losing Pivetta, Jansen and Martin will hurt. I'm not sure Pivetta has gotten the credit he deserves for being the most reliable and durable pitchers this team has had since we traded for him in 2020. He has not been great, and even was not very good for some stretches, but he took the ball every 5 days and gave the team a chance to win in a big chunk of his starts.

 

While the team has mostly sucked, since Pivetta joined, the teams W-L record is 47-45 in his starts.

 

1. My comments were/are primarily about this year, not the future. Right now John Henry is laughing because of the numbers I presented and because it's obvious to me his front office, including DD, ain't so great. DD had the highest payroll in MLB in 2019 when the Sox couldn't make the postseason and DD needed a whole bunch more money to re-sign Mookie and replace Price and Sale. Yes, the guys coming up through the Sox system were selected by DD and CB, but I'm sure they had a lot of help.

 

2. I'm not sure I agree about how hard it is to replace Pivetta, Martin, O'Neill, and even Jansen. Pivetta first. Are you unaware we lost both pricey Sale and pricey Giolito before the season started and this is the best Sox rotation in at least 10 freaking years? And right now Pivetta's ERA is 4.06 (team ERA is 3.45, 5th best in MLB) and his WAR 1.0. Jansen, agreed, is impossible to replace, but the 2021 Sox made it to the postseason and the ALCS without a closer. Martin's WAR is 0.1--give me a break. O'Neill has good numbers, but, as you have pointed out, the Sox are knee deep in good outfielders and DH's.

 

3. You are no doubt right about spending big bucks to be legitimately among the top 3-4 players. But where oh where do you find the CBO smart enough to do that? In my no doubt ill-informed opinion, Breslow has already bombed badly on Sale, Giolito, and Grissom. However, if he's the guy who found the new pitching coach, that's a big plus, but not the same as spending "large and long on one or two players."

 

4. Lurking in the back of my tiny little brain is the notion that spending big on names does help with attendance, if not always with wins. Right now the Sox have pretty good performance from Duran, et al, but no real names, and attendance is down from last year despite a better won-lost record.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Maxbialystock

[Maxbialystock]

Jansen seems to have bought into this team. He wants the ball. To me, he's not overpaid. I'm fine with him.

 

I just hate $16M for so few innings, but you are right. Forget the saves. I think his call to Cora to put him in in the 8th inning against the Yankees with the score 6-4, Sox, Yankees on 1st and 3d, and 2 outs sent a huge message to the team.

[Bellhorn04]

1. My comments were/are primarily about this year, not the future. Right now John Henry is laughing because of the numbers I presented and because it's obvious to me his front office, including DD, ain't so great. DD had the highest payroll in MLB in 2019 when the Sox couldn't make the postseason and DD needed a whole bunch more money to re-sign Mookie and replace Price and Sale. Yes, the guys coming up through the Sox system were selected by DD and CB, but I'm sure they had a lot of help.

 

So who exactly are you crediting for the team starting to look good?

[Maxbialystock]

If the Sox could do that, it would be awesome…

 

Yes, but I think attendance would continue to languish. To get butts in seats, you need names on the field.

 

In 2018 Washington attendance was 11th, 31,620 and Philadelphia's was 27,318, 17th.

 

In 2019 Washington attendance dropped to 27,898, 16th, and Philadelphia's jumped up to 33,671, 10th.

 

And the amazing thing about those two years and two teams is that Washington was just 82-80 in 2018 and improved to 93-69 in 2019! Meanwhile, Philly stagnated: 80-82 in 2018 and 81-81 in 2019.

 

However, in 2018 Bryce Harper played for Washington, and in 2019 he played for Philly.

[Maxbialystock]

So who exactly are you crediting for the team starting to look good?

 

I am basically clueless in Seattle. Obviously, the farm system delivered, but I'm not sure who gets the credit for that.

 

If Breslow was the guy who insisted on changing pitching coaches and brought in the new guy, he gets a ton of credit. The rotation has been astounding this year, especially given the absence of both Sale and Giolito.

 

Plus, obviously, Cora. He has been masterful with the pitching staff, but also with the lineup and what I call his "dud liberation movement." If you are on the active roster, which includes just 13 lineup players, you are going out onto that playing field to show what you can do--or not freaking do. Take Grissom--please. Take Yoshida too.