Red Sox ownership

[jad]

Wow. Ownership apologists out in force for the new year! But I agree entirely that multi-billionaires always deserve the benefit of the doubt. Because how could they have all that money if they weren't more virtuous than the rest of us?

[notin]

Wow. Ownership apologists out in force for the new year! But I agree entirely that multi-billionaires always deserve the benefit of the doubt. Because how could they have all that money if they weren't more virtuous than the rest of us?

 

So you’re saying the players are the virtuous ones and you know this to be a fact? Got it…

[moonslav59]

Wow. Ownership apologists out in force for the new year! But I agree entirely that multi-billionaires always deserve the benefit of the doubt. Because how could they have all that money if they weren't more virtuous than the rest of us?

 

Name one in "out in force."

 

Business owners all over the world try to maximize profits and don't even care if their products kill or harm people. Telling it like it is does not mean we defend it, approve of it or even apologize for it.

[mvp 78]

So you’re saying the players are the virtuous ones and you know this to be a fact? Got it…

 

As a fan, if I'm choosing between billionaire owners that treat teams another investment in their portfolio or players that treat this game as their livelihood, I'll err on the side of the players 100% of the time.

[notin]

As a fan, if I'm choosing between billionaire owners that treat teams another investment in their portfolio or players that treat this game as their livelihood, I'll err on the side of the players 100% of the time.

 

I keep an open mind. It’s not like players have a long history of openness with the fans either…

[mvp 78]

I keep an open mind. It’s not like players have a long history of openness with the fans either…

 

Oh no! Say it ain't so Joe! Is that what the 1919 Black Sox scandal was really about? Not answering reporters' questions in the right manner?

 

Mookie should have been paid. Henry should be flayed.

[moonslav59]

Oh no! Say it ain't so Joe! Is that what the 1919 Black Sox scandal was really about? Not answering reporters' questions in the right manner?

 

Mookie should have been paid. Henry should be flayed.

 

I agree, and Walmart should pay their employees enough to not qualify for food stamps.

[notin]

Oh no! Say it ain't so Joe! Is that what the 1919 Black Sox scandal was really about? Not answering reporters' questions in the right manner?

 

Mookie should have been paid. Henry should be flayed.

 

 

None of that makes either one’s story the truth…

[moonslav59]

None of that makes either one’s story the truth…

 

I have to think, if nobody has told their side of the story in detail, by now, we may never know.

[Bellhorn04]

None of that makes either one’s story the truth…

 

The truth is hidden from us, so all we can do is make our best guesses based on the evidence.

 

To me it's a big thing that Mookie made a public statement that no $300 million offer was made, and it's been crickets in response. You don't think it means much. So we'll keep jabbering about it until we croak.

Edited January 2, 2024 by Bellhorn04

[notin]

The truth is hidden from us, but so all we can do is make our best guesses based on the evidence.

 

To me it's a big thing that Mookie made a public statement that no $300 million offer was made, and it's been crickets in response. You don't think it means much. So we'll keep jabbering about it until we croak.

 

That’s been my point. We don’t know the truth.

 

But apparently not defaulting belief to the players is tantamount to treason. Mookie didn’t talk for 3 years and no one assumed anything either way.

Edited January 2, 2024 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

That’s been my point. We don’t know the truth.

 

But apparently not defaulting belief to the players is tantamount to treason. Mookie didn’t talk for 3 years and no one assumed anything either way.

 

Well, needless to say, even before he talked a lot of people were unhappy about losing him. It's only people like me who are interested in details like this.

 

In any case, when you lose a player of Betts's stature, it would be nice to get the full story straight from ownership.

Edited January 2, 2024 by Bellhorn04

[Dipre]

As a fan, if I'm choosing between billionaire owners that treat teams another investment in their portfolio or players that treat this game as their livelihood, I'll err on the side of the players 100% of the time.

 

As a lawyer, I don't trust either. I don't trusy.anyone's comments if there's even a hint of an agenda.

[Dipre]

Wow. Ownership apologists out in force for the new year! But I agree entirely that multi-billionaires always deserve the benefit of the doubt. Because how could they have all that money if they weren't more virtuous than the rest of us?

 

You're likely fun at parties.

[Old Red]

Well, needless to say, even before he talked a lot of people were unhappy about losing him. It's only people like me who are interested in details like this.

 

In any case, when you lose a player of Betts's stature, it would be nice to get the full story straight from ownership.

 

What an interesting round table forum it would be. JH, DD, Mookie, and Bloom. Who do you think wouldn’t come up smelling like roses?🤭

[moonslav59]

The truth is hidden from us, so all we can do is make our best guesses based on the evidence.

 

To me it's a big thing that Mookie made a public statement that no $300 million offer was made, and it's been crickets in response. You don't think it means much. So we'll keep jabbering about it until we croak.

 

There is so much gray area in these negotiations. Sometimes numbers are "floated," but no firm offer is ever made.

 

For example, Betts' agent might ask, what numbers are you thinking about, and the Sox might have said, "somewhere around $300M/10," and the agents says that's not enough. Maybe the agent never countered with a price they'd accept, and the Sox never tried to find out what price it would take, but my guess is that the agent said a ballpark number Betts wanted, and the Sox never bothered to up their initial amount floated. End of negotiations.

 

Just my guess. I could be way off on what happened, but this could explain the Merloni statement, without contradicting the Betts statement that no offer was given, as no formal offer was actually given.

 

[moonslav59]

Well, needless to say, even before he talked a lot of people were unhappy about losing him. It's only people like me who are interested in details like this.

 

In any case, when you lose a player of Betts's stature, it would be nice to get the full story straight from ownership.

 

Agreed.

 

However, giving details, assuming they made a fair offer, might be perceived as throwing Betts under the bus, and then we'd hear fans saying "this is why nobody wants to play for Boston."

 

I doubt we made a formal offer of $300M, but maybe Betts knew that's about what we were prepared to offer, but never did, because the agent said "not enough."

 

The one consistent thing about the Sox, under Henry is the idea that we are very firm on the valuing of our own players as they approach or reach free agency, and we never seem to budge above the amount we set, no matter how much the market changes.

 

It's worked a number of times, most notably with Pedro and Ellsbury, but also with some less glitzy players like Porcello. We traded some before they became FAs that worked out fine- as well, like Nomar, Manny, Beckett, Price, Lackey, Vaz.

 

There is a sizable list of ones that did not work out so well with us, but none like Betts.

[Bellhorn04]

There is so much gray area in these negotiations. Sometimes numbers are "floated," but no firm offer is ever made.

 

For example, Betts' agent might ask, what numbers are you thinking about, and the Sox might have said, "somewhere around $300M/10," and the agents says that's not enough. Maybe the agent never countered with a price they'd accept, and the Sox never tried to find out what price it would take, but my guess is that the agent said a ballpark number Betts wanted, and the Sox never bothered to up their initial amount floated. End of negotiations.

 

Just my guess. I could be way off on what happened, but this could explain the Merloni statement, without contradicting the Betts statement that no offer was given, as no formal offer was actually given.

 

 

It's quite possible that accounts for the apparent conflict.

[Dipre]

One important thing to note, which I believe notin mentioned, is that players can pretty much say whatever the hell they want about negotiations past, current, or present, but teams are generally constrained by the MLBPA and future negotiating positions to not talk about this type of stuff. If you look at it from a league-wide perspective, teams basically never directly touch on these subjects.

[mvp 78]

That’s been my point. We don’t know the truth.

 

But apparently not defaulting belief to the players is tantamount to treason. Mookie didn’t talk for 3 years and no one assumed anything either way.

 

It's not treason, Henry has just shown that he's not willing to pay players and field a competitive team since 2020. Why give ownership the benefit of the doubt here? Mookie went out and got his 300M FMV elsewhere.

[mvp 78]

One important thing to note, which I believe notin mentioned, is that players can pretty much say whatever the hell they want about negotiations past, current, or present, but teams are generally constrained by the MLBPA and future negotiating positions to not talk about this type of stuff. If you look at it from a league-wide perspective, teams basically never directly touch on these subjects.

 

Sox have no problem letting leaks that seem to favor them get out. Funny that the leaks that don't favor them mysteriously stay hidden.

[Bellhorn04]

One important thing to note, which I believe notin mentioned, is that players can pretty much say whatever the hell they want about negotiations past, current, or present, but teams are generally constrained by the MLBPA and future negotiating positions to not talk about this type of stuff. If you look at it from a league-wide perspective, teams basically never directly touch on these subjects.

 

The Yankees flaunted that constraint with Judge. He didn't like it, but so what, he went out and had the best season of his career.

 

With Yamamoto, we learned that the Mets offered 12/325 and didn't get a chance to increase. We also learned the Yankees offered 10/300.

 

For some reason, we get very precise info on certain offers.

 

With Lester we know that the Red Sox and Cubs had both offered him 6/135 and the Cubs increased it to 6/155.

 

With Betts, we know about the first offer the Sox made of 8/200, the one Mookie famously discussed with his mother.

 

With Bogaerts, the report that the Sox offered a one year extension of $30 mill was never disputed by anyone.

[Dipre]

That's like 5 out of the hundreds of contested free agent negotiations

[Bellhorn04]

That's like 5 out of the hundreds of contested free agent negotiations

 

Seriously? There are a ton more examples for anyone who has the time.

 

s***, last offseason we got all the details of how we won the silver medals with Eovaldi and Eflin.

[mvp 78]

Seriously? There are a ton more examples for anyone who has the time.

 

s***, last offseason we got all the details of how we won the silver medals with Eovaldi and Eflin.

 

The Interest Kings!

[Bellhorn04]

The Interest Kings!

 

And I should have added:

 

We know the original offer to Lester was 4/70.

 

We know they offered Bogaerts 6/162 when it was in the auction phase.

[Bellhorn04]

With both Lester and Bogaerts they eventually made massive increases from their ridiculous first offers, and if they had made those offers in the first place they likely would have retained the players.

 

This is why I say there's been a pattern of behavior.

[moonslav59]

The Yankees flaunted that constraint with Judge. He didn't like it, but so what, he went out and had the best season of his career.

 

With Yamamoto, we learned that the Mets offered 12/325 and didn't get a chance to increase. We also learned the Yankees offered 10/300.

 

For some reason, we get very precise info on certain offers.

 

With Lester we know that the Red Sox and Cubs had both offered him 6/135 and the Cubs increased it to 6/155.

 

With Betts, we know about the first offer the Sox made of 8/200, the one Mookie famously discussed with his mother.

 

With Bogaerts, the report that the Sox offered a one year extension of $30 mill was never disputed by anyone.

 

I wonder, if we had increased that "famous" $200M/8 offer to $220 or even 240/8, if Mookie would have taken it, with his mom's blessing.

 

The extension offered to Bogey does seem like a slap in te face, but in all fairness, that year was after the 3 years beyond the opt out year (2023,) when Bogey would be 33 years old. While Bogey's OPS+ had remained pretty steady until 2024, his OPS declined and RBI/SLG had shown some serious decline:

 

OPS+: 135 ('18)> 139>128>129>131 ('22)

 

OPS: .883>.939>.867>.863>.833>.790

 

SLG: .522>.555>.502>.493>.456>..440

 

RBI: 103>122>41 (2020)>79>73>58

 

2018-2019: .300 56 220 (1278 PA) .914 OPS (137 OPS+)

 

2021-2022: .301 38 152 (1234 PAs) .848 OPS (130 OPS+)

 

To me, it's not a slam dunk Bogey will be worth $25-30M from ages 34 to whatever.

 

I wish we found a way to keep him, but I also see we have a superior defensive SS on the roster for the next 4 years, and we'd either have to play him at 2B or move Bogey to 2B, against his wishes.

[mvp 78]

With both Lester and Bogaerts they eventually made massive increases from their ridiculous first offers, and if they had made those offers in the first place they likely would have retained the players.

 

This is why I say there's been a pattern of behavior.

 

There is a notable pattern. I hold the faults of this organization at Henry's desk first and foremost. He put the Sox into a tailspin that Crag is now trying to pull them out of. Unfortunately, the fans are taking the brunt of it.

[notin]

Seriously? There are a ton more examples for anyone who has the time.

 

s***, last offseason we got all the details of how we won the silver medals with Eovaldi and Eflin.

 

Ok but all of these were free agents with the sole exception of Judge.

 

Do you have nearly as many examples with contract extensions?