Craig Breslow hired as Head Of Baseball Operations

[Old Red]

Just because I think your opinion is absurd, doesn’t mean I don’t understand it, or know you’ve held the idea for years.

 

Call my opinion is absurd all you want, but that’s why your guy Bloom is gone, because of the W-L record, which mattered most in the here, and now, and not 2025.

[Old Red]

Assume same BB/9, K/9 and H/9

 

Level of competition would have to be factored in also.

[Bellhorn04]

On another topic, if someone had told you 10 years ago that the brain trust of the 2024 Red Sox would consist of Craig Breslow, Alex Cora and Andrew Bailey, you would have had a good laugh about it.

[moonslav59]

Call my opinion is absurd all you want, but that’s why your guy Bloom is gone, because of the W-L record, which mattered most in the here, and now, and not 2025.

 

You are conflating team wins and loses with a pitchers record.

 

Nobody thinks team wins don’t matter.

 

This is a perfect example or your twisted reasoning and deflections.

[moonslav59]

Level of competition would have to be factored in also.

 

Assume the same, despite how you slammed us for using this in 2022.

[moonslav59]

Level of competition would have to be factored in also.

 

Assume the same on everything but record and ERA. Just answer, so we can know how much you value w-l Ba ERA.

[notin]

On another topic, if someone had told you 10 years ago that the brain trust of the 2024 Red Sox would consist of Craig Breslow, Alex Cora and Andrew Bailey, you would have had a good laugh about it.

 

Can we get Daniel Nava as a batting coach?

[Old Red]

You are conflating team wins and loses with a pitchers record.

 

Nobody thinks team wins don’t matter.

 

This is a perfect example or your twisted reasoning and deflections.

No you are conflating my stance on W-L. I have said more than once today that lots of things go into a W-L of a pitcher.

[moonslav59]

No you are conflating my stance on W-L. I have said more than once today that lots of things go into a W-L of a pitcher.

 

You said it, not me.

 

You pivoted from pitching wins to Blooms winning record as GM.

 

I guess you won’t answer my question, which is expected.

[Old Red]

This is hilarious that my opinion, and stance on Monty has bothered some so much. Either way it’s not going to change anything one way, or the other. When I show the gang at PF all these back, and forth tomorrow it will be another WTF, and what’s wrong with all you guys meaning me too, and another round at the kiddie table. Usually there is just one of you as the celebrity guess speaker, but there is more guest appearances in this version of romper room.

[dgalehouse]

But you don't have any numbers to back you up, other than the obsolete one of W-L record.

 

I still have some old school in me. ERA can still impress me. But W-L record has been buried.

 

deGrom won back to back Cy's.

 

His average W-L record for those 2 seasons?

 

10.5-8.5.

 

Dead and buried.

 

If a pitcher has a mediocre win/loss record, but an excellent ERA, then the win/loss record can be deceiving. And vice versa. It does happen. No question. But I don't think it means that won/loss records are obsolete by any means. And these anomalies tend to even out over time. DeGrom is an excellent pitcher with a career record of 84-57, which goes pretty well with his ERA of 2.53. The reason that some might question Montgomery is that he has pitched for seven years and his highest win total in that time was ten. That is not to say that he is not a good pitcher. Just that you might not want to go overboard on him.

[Old Red]

You said it, not me.

 

You pivoted from pitching wins to Blooms winning record as GM.

 

I guess you won’t answer my question, which is expected.

 

You still haven’t answered why Raffy doesn’t get a W-L next to his name after every game.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Love this dispute. I value WINS - at least for starters before the age of openers and bulk men... there was a time when pitchers were expected to finish what they started, so their overall stats may have, shall we say, suffered the last time through the batting order. But did they really care, as long as they nailed down the W? Jack Morris didn't...

 

Some hate that Jack Morris is in the Hall of Fame. But Morris was the best pitcher on a very good team in the entire decade of the 1980s; his Tigers had the second-best win total to the Yankees (who didn't win anything). Morris led the 80s in wins, but also Games Started, Complete Games and Innings Pitched. He also led in Hits, Runs, and HRs -- and didn't give a crap, because his team gave him lots of leads, and he opted to pitch to contact to save his arm. You may also know he got it done when it mattered: 7-1 in 9 postseason starts with two rings (before his arm went dead his last year at age 37).

 

Was Morris just lucky he played on great teams... or were teams great because Morris was their ace?

 

As a contrast, I offer Nolan Ryan from 1987: led the NL in ERA, Ks, H/9, K/9, K/BB, FIP, and had a W-L record of 8 wins and 16 losses. Ryan finished 5th in Cy Young voting that year, but was also 5th in WAR for pitchers. In fact, through the 1980s, Ryan earned 30.4 WAR... Morris earned 30.3 WAR (both were far behind 80's leader Dave Stieb's 48.1 WAR).

 

Neither Ryan nor Morris ever won a Cy... but both are in Cooperstown.

[Old Red]

If a pitcher has a mediocre win/loss record, but an excellent ERA, then the win/loss record can be deceiving. And vice versa. It does happen. No question. But I don't think it means that won/loss records are obsolete by any means. And these anomalies tend to even out over time. DeGrom is an excellent pitcher with a career record of 84-57, which goes pretty well with his ERA of 2.53. The reason that some might question Montgomery is that he has pitched for seven years and his highest win total in that time was ten. That is not to say that he is not a good pitcher. Just that you might not want to go overboard on him.

 

Well said, but some on here want Monty to be looked at as so good so bad, because he is available, and the Red Sox are in desperate need, so it’s a match made in heaven for some, so get out the Pom Poms, and hip, hip Horay.

[Old Red]

Love this dispute. I value WINS - at least for starters before the age of openers and bulk men... there was a time when pitchers were expected to finish what they started, so their overall stats may have, shall we say, suffered the last time through the batting order. But did they really care, as long as they nailed down the W? Jack Morris didn't...

 

Some hate that Jack Morris is in the Hall of Fame. But Morris was the best pitcher on a very good team in the entire decade of the 1980s; his Tigers had the second-best win total to the Yankees (who didn't win anything). Morris led the 80s in wins, but also Games Started, Complete Games and Innings Pitched. He also led in Hits, Runs, and HRs -- and didn't give a crap, because his team gave him lots of leads, and he opted to pitch to contact to save his arm. You may also know he got it done when it mattered: 7-1 in 9 postseason starts with two rings (before his arm went dead his last year at age 37).

 

Was Morris just lucky he played on great teams... or were teams great because Morris was their ace?

 

As a contrast, I offer Nolan Ryan from 1987: led the NL in ERA, Ks, H/9, K/9, K/BB, FIP, and had a W-L record of 8 wins and 16 losses. Ryan finished 5th in Cy Young voting that year, but was also 5th in WAR for pitchers. In fact, through the 1980s, Ryan earned 30.4 WAR... Morris earned 30.3 WAR (both were far behind 80's leader Dave Stieb's 48.1 WAR).

 

Neither Ryan nor Morris ever won a Cy... but both are in Cooperstown.

 

Another good post.

[moonslav59]

This is hilarious that my opinion, and stance on Monty has bothered some so much. Either way it’s not going to change anything one way, or the other. When I show the gang at PF all these back, and forth tomorrow it will be another WTF, and what’s wrong with all you guys meaning me too, and another round at the kiddie table. Usually there is just one of you as the celebrity guess speaker, but there is more guest appearances in this version of romper room.

 

Being absurd is different from bothering.

 

I’ll answer your Q. No w-l next to Devers because w-l is a team stat, and tge 3Bman matters less than the SP in most games.

 

Now answer mine. Assume all other factors are even.

[moonslav59]

Well said, but some on here want Monty to be looked at as so good so bad, because he is available, and the Red Sox are in desperate need, so it’s a match made in heaven for some, so get out the Pom Poms, and hip, hip Horay.

 

I’d say the same about Monty, if he wasn’t a FA.

 

He’s somewhere between the 15th and 30th best over the last 3 year, IMO.

 

He’s tied for 49th in wins.

[Old Red]

Being absurd is different from bothering.

 

I’ll answer your Q. No w-l next to Devers because w-l is a team stat, and tge 3Bman matters less than the SP in most games.

 

Now answer mine. Assume all other factors are even.

 

Thanks for the kind words, but being absurd is not what the gang at PF calls you. Plenty of other words, but I guess that goes along with being as infamous that you have become.

[dgalehouse]

Andrew (George) Bailey starring in; It's A Wonderful Pitching Staff.

[notin]

Love this dispute. I value WINS - at least for starters before the age of openers and bulk men... there was a time when pitchers were expected to finish what they started, so their overall stats may have, shall we say, suffered the last time through the batting order. But did they really care, as long as they nailed down the W? Jack Morris didn't...

 

Some hate that Jack Morris is in the Hall of Fame. But Morris was the best pitcher on a very good team in the entire decade of the 1980s; his Tigers had the second-best win total to the Yankees (who didn't win anything). Morris led the 80s in wins, but also Games Started, Complete Games and Innings Pitched. He also led in Hits, Runs, and HRs -- and didn't give a crap, because his team gave him lots of leads, and he opted to pitch to contact to save his arm. You may also know he got it done when it mattered: 7-1 in 9 postseason starts with two rings (before his arm went dead his last year at age 37).

 

Was Morris just lucky he played on great teams... or were teams great because Morris was their ace?

 

As a contrast, I offer Nolan Ryan from 1987: led the NL in ERA, Ks, H/9, K/9, K/BB, FIP, and had a W-L record of 8 wins and 16 losses. Ryan finished 5th in Cy Young voting that year, but was also 5th in WAR for pitchers. In fact, through the 1980s, Ryan earned 30.4 WAR... Morris earned 30.3 WAR (both were far behind 80's leader Dave Stieb's 48.1 WAR).

 

Neither Ryan nor Morris ever won a Cy... but both are in Cooperstown.

 

 

It’s not about ignoring wins as much as it is using them to evaluate a pitcher.

 

This off-season the filling pitchers are available:

 

Pitcher A (career record 90-71)

Pitcher B (career record 90-73)

 

These guys are obviously pretty equal, right?

 

So does that mean that since Pitcher A (Aaron Nola) received a 7 year $172mill contract, Rich Hill can expect one as well?

[notin]

But you don't have any numbers to back you up, other than the obsolete one of W-L record.

 

I still have some old school in me. ERA can still impress me. But W-L record has been buried.

 

deGrom won back to back Cy's.

 

His average W-L record for those 2 seasons?

 

10.5-8.5.

 

Dead and buried.

 

If W-L record was a good way to evaluate a pitcher, Felix Hernandez (169-136) would be considered the equivalent of Kevin Appier (169-137) and Bob Forsch (168-136) and a lesser pitcher than Rick Sutcliffe (171-139).

 

 

I don’t recall anyone ever referring to them as King Kevin or King Bob…

[moonslav59]

Thanks for the kind words, but being absurd is not what the gang at PF calls you. Plenty of other words, but I guess that goes along with being as infamous that you have become.

 

Not going to answer, right?

[moonslav59]

When many starters used to 7-9 innings, the W-L stat meant more, but these days it’s crazy.

[dgalehouse]

It’s not about ignoring wins as much as it is using them to evaluate a pitcher.

 

This off-season the filling pitchers are available:

 

Pitcher A (career record 90-71)

Pitcher B (career record 90-73)

 

These guys are obviously pretty equal, right?

 

So does that mean that since Pitcher A (Aaron Nola) received a 7 year $172mill contract, Rich Hill can expect one as well?

 

That is not a convincing argument. Of course, won/loss records would not be the only thing you look at. Just that they should not be thrown out the window either.

[dgalehouse]

If W-L record was a good way to evaluate a pitcher, Felix Hernandez (169-136) would be considered the equivalent of Kevin Appier (169-137) and Bob Forsch (168-136) and a lesser pitcher than Rick Sutcliffe (171-139).

 

 

I don’t recall anyone ever referring to them as King Kevin or King Bob…

 

With the large number of major leaguers who have played a large number of games, you can always find an example to support almost any opinion. It doesn't prove anything.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

When many starters used to 7-9 innings, the W-L stat meant more, but these days it’s crazy.

 

We are a long way from Game Seven of the 1991 World Series, when John Smoltz was lifted in the 8th inning after allowing zero runs, and opponent Jack Morris went 10 shutout frames to win the ring.

 

Ask any player, manager or coach if they know or have known certain pitchers who have what it takes inside to nail down a big W. There may be no stat then or now that can quantify such a confidence factor... but what we do know today is that analytics can contradict and change history.

 

Better prepare for the Blake Snell Show now... just remember his gem in Game Six of the 2020 World Series: one out and a 1-0 lead in the 6th, he gave up a single and was yanked with the top of the order due up -- Betts, Seager, Turner -- who Snell had struck out in all six previous at bats.

 

The Rays lost the game and the Series, and somehow their management brags it would do it again, over and over. Maybe the new Sox braintrust will handle a guy like Snell differently... after all, Kevin Cash is a catcher, while Breslow and Bailey are pitchers; you know, guys that want the ball and would never want to come out with the game on the line.

[Bellhorn04]

If a pitcher has a mediocre win/loss record, but an excellent ERA, then the win/loss record can be deceiving. And vice versa. It does happen. No question. But I don't think it means that won/loss records are obsolete by any means. And these anomalies tend to even out over time. DeGrom is an excellent pitcher with a career record of 84-57, which goes pretty well with his ERA of 2.53.

 

Yes, deGrom is an excellent pitcher, one of the best in the game.

 

He's also 35 years old.

 

So he may get to 100 career wins, but not much farther.

[mvp 78]

Sure, Jack Morris was good in the '84 and '91 Postseasons. He also sucked in the '87 and '92 Postseasons where he either lost all of his starts or was lifted in the 4th inning after giving up 5 runs. Overall, he had a 3.80 ERA in the Postseason, which is close to his career 3.90 ERA. Saying he knew when to turn it on just doesn't ring true to me when you look at the full picture.

[notin]

With the large number of major leaguers who have played a large number of games, you can always find an example to support almost any opinion. It doesn't prove anything.

 

A win is a team stat. Your pitcher doesn’t get one of his team didn’t give him any run support.

 

The object of the game is to win. We all get that. But the object isn’t to get a win for the pitcher. W-L for pitchers records are meaningless…

[Bellhorn04]

If deGrom winning back to back CYA's with a combined record of 21-17 doesn't clinch the point, nothing will.