Craig Breslow hired as Head Of Baseball Operations

[notin]

That is not a convincing argument. Of course, won/loss records would not be the only thing you look at. Just that they should not be thrown out the window either.

 

Why not?

 

In the last 4 seasons, Aaron Nola is 37-36. 32-31 in the last three. And 23-22 in the last two. That’s a four year stretch that strongly positions him as a .500 pitcher, and it’s not heavily influenced by one bad year.

 

He just signed a 7 year $172mill contract. Do you think this W-L record hurt his negotiations, helped his negotiations, or had no impact?

Edited November 22, 2023 by notin

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Sure, Jack Morris was good in the '84 and '91 Postseasons. He also sucked in the '87 and '92 Postseasons where he either lost all of his starts or was lifted in the 4th inning after giving up 5 runs. Overall, he had a 3.80 ERA in the Postseason, which is close to his career 3.90 ERA. Saying he knew when to turn it on just doesn't ring true to me when you look at the full picture.

 

The whole point with guys like Morris is we can never know the full picture. Fans or reporters can look at stats, but those only show so much. ERA meant nothing to Morris, who would gladly pitch to contact with a big lead to preserve his energy, stay in the game -- and most importantly -- spare the arms of his teammates in the bullpen for games when they were really needed.

 

But since WINS is the topic of the week, look again at Morris' last good year in 1992: 21-6, 4.04... led the AL in Ws, with a below-average ERA (league avg. for 180 IP was 3.96). Was he lucky he pitched on the champs or were they lucky he led them to first place? Morris was lousy in the postseason, and basically ineffective for two more years...

 

... when his club kept running him out there... because of his rep or legacy? Like the Sox did with Smoltz or (ugh) Kluber?

[moonslav59]

A win is a team stat. Your pitcher doesn’t get one of his team didn’t give him any run support.

 

The object of the game is to win. We all get that. But the object isn’t to get a win for the pitcher. W-L for pitchers records are meaningless…

 

Looking at the team record in a pitcher’s starts and comparing it to the team record in non starts has more value than a pitcher’s W-L record. The way they decide which pitcher gets the win is awful. Often enough, one of the worst pitchers in the game gets the win.

[Old Red]

If deGrom winning back to back CYA's with a combined record of 21-17 doesn't clinch the point, nothing will.

 

Still going on about this two days later! Wow! You answered the question yourself. Nothing will. You still don’t get it that is more than 1 answer to this subject, and your answer is different than mine. I know you think that those who don’t agree with you they don’t know what they are talking about, and I can certainly live with that, but it sounds like you can’t, and you aren’t. Something so insignificant if Monty is a #2, or #3, or if W-L records matter, and how much.Keep up the good work.🤓

[Bellhorn04]

Still going on about this two days later! Wow! You answered the question yourself. Nothing will. You still don’t get it that is more than 1 answer to this subject, and your answer is different than mine. I know you think that those who don’t agree with you they don’t know what they are talking about, and I can certainly live with that, but it sounds like you can’t, and you aren’t. Something so insignificant if Monty is a #2, or #3, or if W-L records matter, and how much.Keep up the good work.

 

I guess I better clear something up then, Red:

 

I don't post this stuff just for you. We're all here to share and share alike.

[moonslav59]

I guess I better clear something up then, Red:

 

I don't post this stuff just for you. We're all here to share and share alike.

 

I can understand why he would want this topic discussion to end.

[Old Red]

I guess I better clear something up then, Red:

 

I don't post this stuff just for you. We're all here to share and share alike.

 

Oh I get that 100%. Share, and share alike, and think, and think alike. The cool part though doesn’t seem to be acknowledging there is different opinions, and if those opinions don’t jive with yours then obviously those don’t know what they are talking about, or are ridiculous like I heard yesterday. I know it’s hard to imagine, but did you ever think maybe it’s you, and by that I mean anyone else might not know what they are talking about, or are ridiculous, or absurd? Just an observation, and a thought.

[moonslav59]

Maybe, we should outbid everyone for ERod. The team won a ton when he started!

 

He even got the Tigers to go 14-12, in his starts, this year.

 

They went 64-72 in his non start games.

[moonslav59]

Oh I get that 100%. Share, and share alike, and think, and think alike. The cool part though doesn’t seem to be acknowledging there is different opinions, and if those opinions don’t jive with yours then obviously those don’t know what they are talking about, or are ridiculous like I heard yesterday. I know it’s hard to imagine, but did you ever think maybe it’s you, and by that I mean anyone else might not know what they are talking about, or are ridiculous, or absurd? Just an observation, and a thought.

 

Unhinged.

[moonslav59]

For someone who chides us for never letting go or accepting that we agree to disagree, you go on and on, just like we do. You continually bring up past opinions you think were wrong, correct?

 

What’s the difference?

[Old Red]

I can understand why he would want this topic discussion to end.

 

But you guys are the ones that keep it going. You are all trying to make yourselves look better, and trying to confirm you are right the more that gets posted. It doesn’t solve anything, prove anything, or make any kind of difference as insignificant as it is even when you try to make it bigger, and better.

[Old Red]

Unhinged.

 

You are romper room at its best, or at its worse as some would say.

[Old Red]

Off to PF I go to show them more of the comedy show. The audience grows every day.

[moonslav59]

But you guys are the ones that keep it going. You are all trying to make yourselves look better, and trying to confirm you are right the more that gets posted. It doesn’t solve anything, prove anything, or make any kind of difference as insignificant as it is even when you try to make it bigger, and better.

 

It’s called giving an opinion and providing evidence and reasoning to support it. It does not mean we don’t understand or accept others positions or that we are trying to change their opinions.

[moonslav59]

Off to PF I go to show them more of the comedy show. The audience grows every day.

 

Take another poll. Lmao!

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe, we should outbid everyone for ERod. The team won a ton when he started!

 

He even got the Tigers to go 14-12, in his starts, this year.

 

They went 64-72 in his non start games.

 

ERod was a human rabbit's paw when he pitched for the Sox too, as I recall.

[Bellhorn04]

But you guys are the ones that keep it going. You are all trying to make yourselves look better, and trying to confirm you are right the more that gets posted. It doesn’t solve anything, prove anything, or make any kind of difference as insignificant as it is even when you try to make it bigger, and better.

 

denny galehouse has joined the conversation with his own viewpoint, which partially agrees with mine and partially doesn't. 5 gloves has also joined.

 

Like I say, it's not all about you. You have to get past that.

[notin]

If deGrom winning back to back CYA's with a combined record of 21-17 doesn't clinch the point, nothing will.

 

Or Felix Hernandez winning the award with a record of 13-12 over David Price (19-6), CC Sabathia (21-7) and Jon Lester (19-9)…

[Bellhorn04]

Or Felix Hernandez winning the award with a record of 13-12 over David Price (19-6), CC Sabathia (21-7) and Jon Lester (19-9)…

 

Yeah, that was considered the sort of big breakthrough for ignoring the W-L record...

 

Sonny Gray finished 2nd in the voting this year with his lofty total of 8, count 'em 8 wins.

[moonslav59]

ERod was a human rabbit's paw when he pitched for the Sox too, as I recall.

 

Yes!

 

64-24 from2018-2021 team record.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Or Felix Hernandez winning the award with a record of 13-12 over David Price (19-6), CC Sabathia (21-7) and Jon Lester (19-9)…

 

Or Bob Welch winning the 1990 Cy with a 27-6 record. Roger Clemens only won 21, but led all baseball players with a 10.4 WAR (Welch didn't even make the pitcher Top 10).

 

Clemens also led in Adjusted Pitching WINS, WIN Probability Added, Sit. WINS Saved, Championship WPA, Base-Out Wins Saved, Base-Out Runs Saved, ADJ Pitching Runs, ERA, ADJ ERA, K/BB, HR/9, FIP and shutouts (tied). And don't forget Ninja pony-tails!

[moonslav59]

denny galehouse has joined the conversation with his own viewpoint, which partially agrees with mine and partially doesn't. 5 gloves has also joined.

 

Like I say, it's not all about you. You have to get past that.

 

We disagree with each other, all the time. We don’t seek to all be alike.

 

I do t see very much acrimony between most of us.

[moonslav59]

Or Bob Welch winning the 1990 Cy with a 27-6 record. Roger Clemens only won 21, but led all baseball players with a 10.4 WAR (Welch didn't even make the pitcher Top 10).

 

Clemens also led in Adjusted Pitching WINS, WIN Probability Added, Sit. WINS Saved, Championship WPA, Base-Out Wins Saved, Base-Out Runs Saved, ADJ Pitching Runs, ERA, ADJ ERA, K/BB, HR/9, FIP and shutouts (tied). And don't forget Ninja pony-tails!

 

The Sox went 22-9 u Dee Clemens that year. The list a game 1-0 and 2-1 with him on the mound.

[mvp 78]

The whole point with guys like Morris is we can never know the full picture. Fans or reporters can look at stats, but those only show so much. ERA meant nothing to Morris, who would gladly pitch to contact with a big lead to preserve his energy, stay in the game -- and most importantly -- spare the arms of his teammates in the bullpen for games when they were really needed.

 

But since WINS is the topic of the week, look again at Morris' last good year in 1992: 21-6, 4.04... led the AL in Ws, with a below-average ERA (league avg. for 180 IP was 3.96). Was he lucky he pitched on the champs or were they lucky he led them to first place? Morris was lousy in the postseason, and basically ineffective for two more years...

 

... when his club kept running him out there... because of his rep or legacy? Like the Sox did with Smoltz or (ugh) Kluber?

 

I think the Jays were glad he pitched so much to contact in the '92 playoffs that he went 0-3 and was pulled in the 4th inning in his other start. Grape job Jack!

[mvp 78]

Still going on about this two days later! Wow! You answered the question yourself. Nothing will. You still don’t get it that is more than 1 answer to this subject, and your answer is different than mine. I know you think that those who don’t agree with you they don’t know what they are talking about, and I can certainly live with that, but it sounds like you can’t, and you aren’t. Something so insignificant if Monty is a #2, or #3, or if W-L records matter, and how much.Keep up the good work.🤓

 

Not sure why you're picking on Bell here since I woke up this morning and several posters were still talking about this.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think the Jays were glad he pitched so much to contact in the '92 playoffs that he went 0-3 and was pulled in the 4th inning in his other start. Grape job Jack!

 

Nope, the Jays never had a big lead in any of those games.

[mvp 78]

Nope, the Jays never had a big lead in any of those games.

 

He didn't have a big lead in '91 when he threw a 10 inning SHO and still pitched to contact. It's just in that game, the contact he gave up was different than the contact he gave up in '92. Small Sample Size Variance! We remember his great performance in '91. We hide the horrible performance in '92, but he was the same pitcher. Overall, he was a very good pitcher. He was a 3.90 ERA pitcher. Some days his contact he gave up wouldn't be a big deal, some days it would be. Overall, it would lead to a 3.90 ERA. It's a complete MYTH that he would give up more runs in games where he had leads and less runs in games that were closer. Two of his best all time Postseason performances were in games where his team scored 8 and 9 runs. Shouldn't he have let off the gas a little and given up 4 runs then rather than given up 4 runs when his team had only scored 5? It makes no damn sense.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

He didn't have a big lead in '91 when he threw a 10 inning SHO and still pitched to contact. It's just in that game, the contact he gave up was different than the contact he gave up in '92. Small Sample Size Variance! We remember his great performance in '91. We hide the horrible performance in '92, but he was the same pitcher. Overall, he was a very good pitcher. He was a 3.90 ERA pitcher. Some days his contact he gave up wouldn't be a big deal, some days it would be. Overall, it would lead to a 3.90 ERA. It's a complete MYTH that he would give up more runs in games where he had leads and less runs in games that were closer. Two of his best all time Postseason performances were in games where his team scored 8 and 9 runs. Shouldn't he have let off the gas a little and given up 4 runs then rather than given up 4 runs when his team had only scored 5? It makes no damn sense.

 

Teammates, opponents, managers, coaches, scouts (and even awards voters) value statistics, but they also value qualitative data about players, managers, coaches and prospects. That's not a myth and no quantitative data can ever prove it is.

[Old Red]

Take another poll. Lmao!

 

You should be LYAO. You were the BUTT of all the jokes.

[Old Red]

Not sure why you're picking on Bell here since I woke up this morning and several posters were still talking about this.

 

That wasn’t my intention, but I guess it came across that way. We had a few back, and forth on the subject, so I was just continuing that. I’ve had my lecture from Bell, so I get that too, and I definitely hold Bell in a higher esteem than some of the others, so no harm, or malice intended. Thanks for pointing it out though.

.