Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[mvp 78]

The only way people get around the idea of "Mookie was never going to sign an extension with the Red Sox" but "Mookie signed an extension with the Dodgers" is that they have to build a narrative that either Mookie's mom was truly evil and didn't want Mookie to play in Boston OR Mookie just really fell in love with LA and liked the idea of being in the big media friendly environment OR it was COVID's fault. There's no other way to link those two ideas without creating some sort of song and dance (that can't be proven) to explain it away.

[Hitch]

I like playing devil's advocate, I must admit. I was not unhappy when they fired Bloom, but I'm very unhappy right now, and I'm seeing a lot of signs that Bloom wasn't the real problem, or was far from the only problem. Maybe he was getting a lot of confusing and contradictory messages just like we are now.

 

It's sort of up to Breslow to prove that a competent CBO can rise above all that confusion. Good luck, Crag.

 

There was a lot of problems above Bloom, no doubt, but he f***ed up two consecutive trade deadlines, and f***ed them up badly. He deserved to be sacked for that alone, but add in that it was reported often that he was very indecisive and questioned his own decisions over and over (the two deadlines would back that up), and it was right to move on from him, whether the issues get cleared up above him or not.

[mvp 78]

There was a lot of problems above Bloom, no doubt, but he f***ed up two consecutive trade deadlines, and f***ed them up badly. He deserved to be sacked for that alone, but add in that it was reported often that he was very indecisive and questioned his own decisions over and over (the two deadlines would back that up), and it was right to move on from him, whether the issues get cleared up above him or not.

 

All of this!

[notin]

Maybe. But you're the only one who refuses to accept the fact that HE DID NOT test free agency.

 

I know he didn’t. But I do also acknowledge it wasn’t a normal off-season…

[moonslav59]

They did the identical thing with Bogaerts, if the reports are accurate.

 

The only difference was they fell $20 million short on Lester, and $118 million short on Bogaerts.

 

I'm really not sure they were ever serious about bringing Bogey back, unless it was at a lower than market value cost. It's just my opinion. The lack of reported offers made over the years makes me wonder.

 

They must have felt Bogey would never accept the kind of offer they wanted to give, at any point in his time, here.Or, they didn't care if he walked.

[moonslav59]

Betts stated last year that he was never given a 300M offer from the Sox. When asked about negotiations he said "go ask Bloom" and we never got anything further. Why? Sox never refuted what he said.

 

Yes, this has been presented, many times. The fact that the Sox have said nothing, including a refutation does not mean it's true.

 

Also, maybe no formal offer of $300M was made, but that "framework" was given, orally.

 

I'm pretty certain no counter to the $400M Betts ask was ever even discussed afterwards. I'm guessing they knew they'd never come close to a meeting point in the middle.

 

I'm not sure why they couldn't go from $300M/10 to 320M/11, at the very least, but these guys are hard-asses, when it comes to their own.

 

I feel like Schill was the only "own" guy they paid more than what they felt he was worth.

[moonslav59]

The only way people get around the idea of "Mookie was never going to sign an extension with the Red Sox" but "Mookie signed an extension with the Dodgers" is that they have to build a narrative that either Mookie's mom was truly evil and didn't want Mookie to play in Boston OR Mookie just really fell in love with LA and liked the idea of being in the big media friendly environment OR it was COVID's fault. There's no other way to link those two ideas without creating some sort of song and dance (that can't be proven) to explain it away.

 

Is anybody really saying it was Mookie that would not have accepted any offer made by the Sox, under $400M, or are they just saying they felt he asked for the world, said he wanted to test free agency and the Sox refused to go over their top or "final" offer (formal or otherwise?)

 

I feel like the Sox felt they need to come close to $400M to get Betts to avoid free agency, and they just did not want to come close to that number and tanked any more talks.

[notin]

There was a lot of problems above Bloom, no doubt, but he f***ed up two consecutive trade deadlines, and f***ed them up badly. He deserved to be sacked for that alone, but add in that it was reported often that he was very indecisive and questioned his own decisions over and over (the two deadlines would back that up), and it was right to move on from him, whether the issues get cleared up above him or not.

 

I was one of Bloom's biggest supporters, but he did deserve to get canned...

[moonslav59]

There was a lot of problems above Bloom, no doubt, but he f***ed up two consecutive trade deadlines, and f***ed them up badly. He deserved to be sacked for that alone, but add in that it was reported often that he was very indecisive and questioned his own decisions over and over (the two deadlines would back that up), and it was right to move on from him, whether the issues get cleared up above him or not.

 

I don't disagree. One thing that makes me wonder is that while most here wanted us to be buyers at the deadline, and it seems the upper brass was more upset about Bloom being indecisive on selling pieces like Sale & JT.

 

Personally, I thought we should have fire-saled in 2022 and tried to get Monty in '23. I'm probably in a minority.

The board seems split, and maybe the 17 Sox VPs were indecisive, too.

[moonslav59]

I was one of Bloom's biggest supporters, but he did deserve to get canned...

 

He botched his biggest signings (over half of them) and messed up the comp picks by going over the tax line. That's enough for me. The trade deadline blunders, other than the 3 trades: Schwarber, McGuire and Abreu/Valdez were just icing on the cake, to me.

[notin]

Is anybody really saying it was Mookie that would not have accepted any offer made by the Sox, under $400M, or are they just saying they felt he asked for the world, said he wanted to test free agency and the Sox refused to go over their top or "final" offer (formal or otherwise?)

 

I feel like the Sox felt they need to come close to $400M to get Betts to avoid free agency, and they just did not want to come close to that number and tanked any more talks.

 

There was a lot of press about him wanting to test free agency. Only Mookie really knows how dedicated he was to it. I mean, it was obviously his best negotiation ploy, even if it wasn't his wish. (I still say he never should have made it through year five without an extension and it really should have been wrapped up much earlier, maybe in after his second or third year, the way teams like Atlanta and Tampa do it.)

 

But the general attitude is that "the player is always right" in these negotiations is simply not true. With Bogaerts and Lester, both received lowball offers and fan perception was they were insulted and correct to walk away. With Betts, he reportedly made extremely high demands, but the Sox were wrong to not negotiate? It has to work both ways...

[mvp 78]

@tylermilliken_

According to @mikemayer22, the Red Sox have signed reliever Michael Fulmer.

 

He posted a 4.42 ERA/4.15 FIP in 57 IP last season for the Cubs, but will miss all of 2024 after undergoing UCL revision surgery on his right elbow.

 

Might be the reliever form of the James Paxton deal.

 

@ChrisCotillo

Per MLB transactions log, Red Sox have signed Michael Fulmer to a minor league deal. He had UCL revision surgery in March so likely out all of 2024. Bet that’s a 2-year minor league deal.

 

All-Star in 2017.

[notin]

He botched his biggest signings (over half of them) and messed up the comp picks by going over the tax line. That's enough for me. The trade deadline blunders, other than the 3 trades: Schwarber, McGuire and Abreu/Valdez were just icing on the cake, to me.

 

He looked like a genius after 2021. He looked overmatched for the next two seasons...

[mvp 78]

i'm really not sure they were ever serious about bringing bogey back, unless it was at a lower than market value cost. It's just my opinion. The lack of reported offers made over the years makes me wonder.

 

they must have felt bogey would never accept the kind of offer they wanted to give, at any point in his time, here.or, they didn't care if he walked.

 

lol wut?!?!?

[mvp 78]

Yes, this has been presented, many times. The fact that the Sox have said nothing, including a refutation does not mean it's true.

 

Also, maybe no formal offer of $300M was made, but that "framework" was given, orally.

 

I'm pretty certain no counter to the $400M Betts ask was ever even discussed afterwards. I'm guessing they knew they'd never come close to a meeting point in the middle.

 

I'm not sure why they couldn't go from $300M/10 to 320M/11, at the very least, but these guys are hard-asses, when it comes to their own.

 

I feel like Schill was the only "own" guy they paid more than what they felt he was worth.

 

How would they know without asking?

[notin]

@tylermilliken_

According to @mikemayer22, the Red Sox have signed reliever Michael Fulmer.

 

He posted a 4.42 ERA/4.15 FIP in 57 IP last season for the Cubs, but will miss all of 2024 after undergoing UCL revision surgery on his right elbow.

 

Might be the reliever form of the James Paxton deal.

 

@ChrisCotillo

Per MLB transactions log, Red Sox have signed Michael Fulmer to a minor league deal. He had UCL revision surgery in March so likely out all of 2024. Bet that’s a 2-year minor league deal.

 

All-Star in 2017.

 

After watching Fulmer with the Cubs last year, I assume he will be used primarily for batting practice?

[mvp 78]

Is anybody really saying it was Mookie that would not have accepted any offer made by the Sox, under $400M, or are they just saying they felt he asked for the world, said he wanted to test free agency and the Sox refused to go over their top or "final" offer (formal or otherwise?)

 

I feel like the Sox felt they need to come close to $400M to get Betts to avoid free agency, and they just did not want to come close to that number and tanked any more talks.

 

Yes, people said Mookie only wanted to test FA. They blamed his dastardly mom! Then they said "well it's COVID's fault for him signing with the Dodgers."

 

Sox were too lazy to have the conversation or just thought no player was worth 300M. Seems like the market thought otherwise.

[notin]

I don't disagree. One thing that makes me wonder is that while most here wanted us to be buyers at the deadline, and it seems the upper brass was more upset about Bloom being indecisive on selling pieces like Sale & JT.

 

Personally, I thought we should have fire-saled in 2022 and tried to get Monty in '23. I'm probably in a minority.

The board seems split, and maybe the 17 Sox VPs were indecisive, too.

 

The original Sale trade rumor was reportedly nothing more than a salary dump. If Bloom still felt Sale had something left and could be a useful pitcher, I can understand not making that deal. The story I read was he tried to get an actual prospect (quality unknown) for Sale and was rebuffed.

 

All of this was supposedly before Sale showed us that the axiom about bike reading lessons landing permanent knowledge might be a tad overblown...

[notin]

Yes, people said Mookie only wanted to test FA. They blamed his dastardly mom! Then they said "well it's COVID's fault for him signing with the Dodgers."

 

Sox were too lazy to have the conversation or just thought no player was worth 300M. Seems like the market thought otherwise.

 

Some stories actually have the Sox offering him $300mill...

[mvp 78]

There was a lot of press about him wanting to test free agency. Only Mookie really knows how dedicated he was to it. I mean, it was obviously his best negotiation ploy, even if it wasn't his wish. (I still say he never should have made it through year five without an extension and it really should have been wrapped up much earlier, maybe in after his second or third year, the way teams like Atlanta and Tampa do it.)

 

But the general attitude is that "the player is always right" in these negotiations is simply not true. With Bogaerts and Lester, both received lowball offers and fan perception was they were insulted and correct to walk away. With Betts, he reportedly made extremely high demands, but the Sox were wrong to not negotiate? It has to work both ways...

 

A negotiation is when both sides go back and forth. Why would Betts negotiate against himself? That makes no damn sense.

[mvp 78]

After watching Fulmer with the Cubs last year, I assume he will be used primarily for batting practice?

 

Sitting in the trainer's room and at home rehabbing.

[mvp 78]

The original Sale trade rumor was reportedly nothing more than a salary dump. If Bloom still felt Sale had something left and could be a useful pitcher, I can understand not making that deal. The story I read was he tried to get an actual prospect (quality unknown) for Sale and was rebuffed.

 

All of this was supposedly before Sale showed us that the axiom about bike reading lessons landing permanent knowledge might be a tad overblown...

 

That deal would have gotten the Sox under the CBT! The Sox QO's would have been a lot more valuable!

[notin]

A negotiation is when both sides go back and forth. Why would Betts negotiate against himself? That makes no damn sense.

 

That's my point - negotiations have to go both ways. It makes no sense for Mookie to negotiate against himself, but the Sox were wrong for not doing so with Bogaerts?

[mvp 78]

Some stories actually have the Sox offering him $300mill...

 

Mookie said he didn't get 300M. Why didn't the people with the original sources refute?

[notin]

That deal would have gotten the Sox under the CBT! The Sox QO's would have been a lot more valuable!

 

Compensation draft picks are more valuable than multiple years of an ace?

[mvp 78]

That's my point - negotiations have to go both ways. It makes no sense for Mookie to negotiate against himself, but the Sox were wrong for not doing so with Bogaerts?

 

There's been much less reported about Xander extensions and what happened after he went to FA than the Mookie situation. There's even MORE speculation there than we'd like to admit.

[mvp 78]

Compensation draft picks are more valuable than multiple years of an ace?

 

What ace?!?!??!?!?!?!?

[notin]

Mookie said he didn't get 300M. Why didn't the people with the original sources refute?

 

Why bother? It changes nothing, except maybe message board banter.

 

And I don't know why Mookie asked to talk to Bloom when that offer was reportedly in 2020 when Dombrowski was still running the show...

[notin]

What ace?!?!??!?!?!?!?

 

Sale.

 

He had not been one for a while, but maybe Bloom still thought he had something left in him. It looks like Atlanta still feels that way...

[moonslav59]

How would they know without asking?

 

How do you know they never did?

 

If they never did, then they were set on a number they knew was too far away.

 

We can say that was a wrong position to take, or not.

 

I'd have floated another year plus $20-30M, at minimum, but maybe even that was beyond their range.

 

With so much of this unknown, especially just "talks," it's hard to take a firm stance on any position.

 

If you think Betts was worth $375-400M, then I'd say you can take a firm position the Sox blew it, but that's your opinion. (BTW, I suggested we offer $400M/14.)

 

If you start getting to the $325-370M range, there are just too many moving parts to hold any firm stance, IMO.

 

Why we never even tried $310-320M is beyond me, but maybe we did- as a verbally framework offer.