Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[moonslav59]

Seriously we have barely anything left to speak of in return for an all-star perennial mvp candidate in his prime.

 

I sure wish we had kept Betts, somehow- some way.

 

Not extending him is a separate issue from the trade, IMO. Once we decided to trade him, and I might add, he was nearly traded to LAD in the summer of 2019 under DD, the teams that could afford him were few and far between.

 

The trade, essentially was this:

 

1 year of Betts, and that year was the shortened COVID season, where Betts posted a 2.9 fWAR.

 

Dugo has posted a 7.0 fWAR in 4 years with BOS. The team went nowhere, so that looks like a failure, to some.

Downs was a complete bust.

Wong looks somewhat promising and had a 0.8 fWAR in his first 159 games in MLB.

None of the three pitchers we got for Dugo look all that promising, but if we get one year of Duvall for $9M, that could be counted into the value of the return.

The 2020 money "saved" by trading Betts should not be counted as having any value to the 2020 roster, because it was not replaced until 2021 or 2022, which is after the Betts control would have ended, had he stayed.

 

Again, I was a big fan of keeping Betts. I even suggested paying him something like $400M/14 or 12. That's how much I wanted him here, but getting just a comp pick would have been worse.

 

[jacksonianmarch]

I cannot understand, though, why the sox not only got such a s***** return, but did so by sending him to NY. IMO Verdugo is going to be really good for the Yanks. He's a lefty in YS and he is on a platform season. I like this from the Yanks perspective. We shall see if he can fall in line and be a good add or if he tears apart the clubhouse.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If Sox fans who defend Bloom's trade in any way want to insist it was just for one year of Betts, then they should never care about how good Mookie has been in LA since 2020.

 

But the Dodgers traded for 12 years of Betts. It's apparent their intention was to build their sustained contenders around Mookie, as they locked him up longterm in the first month he played for them.

 

The Red Sox could've, too -- they've never denied they couldn't -- and Mookie has said he and his wife were shopping for homes in Boston the winter he was traded.

[notin]

Not a salary dump, but a Verdugo dump (like he dumped on Cora and his teammates, showing up late on game-days).

 

Good for Breslow, who just opened the door for an outfield acquisition... unless he resigns Duvall. The Sox aren't going with Yoshida-Duran-Abreu, unless they want to finish fifth again.

 

If not Duvall, I'd prefer Gurriel, for his all-around solid game... but suspect it will be Teoscar Hernandez; the guy is a two-time Silver Slugger.

 

Teoscar Hernandez in RF at Fenway? It might be smarter to bring Dwight Evans out of retirement…

[Bellhorn04]

If Sox fans who defend Bloom's trade in any way want to insist it was just for one year of Betts, then they should never care about how good Mookie has been in LA since 2020.

 

But the Dodgers traded for 12 years of Betts. It's apparent their intention was to build their sustained contenders around Mookie, as they locked him up longterm in the first month he played for them.

 

The Red Sox could've, too -- they've never denied they couldn't -- and Mookie has said he and his wife were shopping for homes in Boston the winter he was traded.

 

I blame Henry for trading Betts and giving up on any chance to retain him in the process.

 

We can blame Bloom for the return, but there's no way it was his idea. In fact the story has now come out that DD was in talks to trade Betts at the 2019 deadline.

[Bellhorn04]

Teoscar Hernandez in RF at Fenway? It might be smarter to bring Dwight Evans out of retirement…

 

I think the Sox now have Reported Interest in Gurriel.

[mvp 78]

We’ll have to see who ends up in RF, but I’m with you in that I wasn’t all in in trading Dugy, and especially to the Yankees for what they got. Glayber coming back, which was rumored maybe. Dugy would have been in his contract year, and that might have been a good thing to have a good complete year, but like I said I think Cora had a big say in this.

 

Cora made a point to mention that he wanted to focus on everyone competing from day one in Spring Training. It is clear that Verdugo isn't fully invested in being a MLBer 100% of the time. He shows up late and gets benched for in game issues. His ceiling isn't super high. I think they'd rather have a guy busting their ass out there with less talent than a guy with more talent just coasting through their career.

[notin]

I think the Sox now have Reported Interest in Gurriel.

 

Great. His zero career innings in right field should translate very well to Fenway…

[mvp 78]

YUP. This looks like a we need to get his butt out of Boston type of move.

 

That's all it was. They got some arms that the scouts may have liked.

[mvp 78]

I cannot understand, though, why the sox not only got such a s***** return, but did so by sending him to NY. IMO Verdugo is going to be really good for the Yanks. He's a lefty in YS and he is on a platform season. I like this from the Yanks perspective. We shall see if he can fall in line and be a good add or if he tears apart the clubhouse.

 

I hope he has a career year and the Yanks sign him to an Ellsbury deal.

[mvp 78]

If Sox fans who defend Bloom's trade in any way want to insist it was just for one year of Betts, then they should never care about how good Mookie has been in LA since 2020.

 

But the Dodgers traded for 12 years of Betts. It's apparent their intention was to build their sustained contenders around Mookie, as they locked him up longterm in the first month he played for them.

 

The Red Sox could've, too -- they've never denied they couldn't -- and Mookie has said he and his wife were shopping for homes in Boston the winter he was traded.

 

Ownership just realized they didn't want to pay what it would take to keep him so they let him go. It was a stupid decision. It was Ruthian level bad.

[mvp 78]

Abreu has a cannon and would be a great everyday RFer, but we don't know if his bat would hold up for 162.

[moonslav59]

If Sox fans who defend Bloom's trade in any way want to insist it was just for one year of Betts, then they should never care about how good Mookie has been in LA since 2020.

 

 

I don't see it that way.

 

I will argue about why we should have extended him till the cows come home, but it's a separate issue. Yes, the trade was a by-product of that choice, but the choice I complain about is the failure to extend.

 

It's not 'defending the trade" to separate it from that other choice.

 

Of course, 10+ years of Betts is way better than 4 from Dugo and 5 from Wong (plus what you could get for the money imbalance.)

[moonslav59]

Great. His zero career innings in right field should translate very well to Fenway…

 

Yup! Yet another left fielder. Has anything really changed?

[Bellhorn04]

Yup! Yet another left fielder. Has anything really changed?

 

Maybe they are planning some changes to Fenway...

[notin]

If Sox fans who defend Bloom's trade in any way want to insist it was just for one year of Betts, then they should never care about how good Mookie has been in LA since 2020.

 

But the Dodgers traded for 12 years of Betts. It's apparent their intention was to build their sustained contenders around Mookie, as they locked him up longterm in the first month he played for them.

 

The Red Sox could've, too -- they've never denied they couldn't -- and Mookie has said he and his wife were shopping for homes in Boston the winter he was traded.

 

I don’t think you understand what people who “defend” that trade say…

[moonslav59]

Abreu has a cannon and would be a great everyday RFer, but we don't know if his bat would hold up for 162.

 

What about Abreu's defensive instincts and range?

 

I'm all for giving him and Rafaela a shot, but I think we need a better plan B than Mr. Platoon Refsnyder.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don’t think you understand what people who “defend” that trade say…

 

I get it -- "any return is better than letting him walk and just getting a draft pick" -- but then again, look where it ended up:

 

Verdugo -- "the centerpiece in the Betts trade" (as he was called by media, even when it was just him and Graterol and no center) -- has now become, basically... just draft picks -- that the enemy deemed expendable.

 

I was all in on acquiring Verdugo because of his potential, but looking at his Boston career, he wasn't even Benintendi, who some posters deem overrated, as well -- Dugo had 8.2 WAR in his 4 years for the Sox; Beni 10.2 WAR his first 4 years... and Alex never hit 20 homers or stole 20 bases, like Andrew. The latter was also an All-Star and Gold Glover once he left Beantown... achievements that have eluded Verdugo so far...

[notin]

I get it -- "any return is better than letting him walk and just getting a draft pick" -- but then again, look where it ended up:

 

Verdugo -- "the centerpiece in the Betts trade" (as he was called by media, even when it was just him and Graterol and no center) -- has now become, basically... just draft picks -- that the enemy deemed expendable.

 

I was all in on acquiring Verdugo because of his potential, but looking at his Boston career, he wasn't even Benintendi, who some posters deem overrated, as well -- Dugo had 8.2 WAR in his 4 years for the Sox; Beni 10.2 WAR his first 4 years... and Alex never hit 20 homers or stole 20 bases, like Andrew. The latter was also an All-Star and Gold Glover once he left Beantown... achievements that have eluded Verdugo so far...

 

 

And here I thought you didn’t get it…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

And here I thought you didn’t get it…

 

Just busting balls...

 

... unlike Holley: "Verdugo for three nobodies!"

 

However, Tomase points out that one was Eastern League Pitcher of the Month.

 

Hint: his name was dreaded in school by any substitute teacher who had to take attendance... "Who's -- "

[moonslav59]

I get it -- "any return is better than letting him walk and just getting a draft pick" -- but then again, look where it ended up:

 

Verdugo -- "the centerpiece in the Betts trade" (as he was called by media, even when it was just him and Graterol and no center) -- has now become, basically... just draft picks -- that the enemy deemed expendable.

 

I was all in on acquiring Verdugo because of his potential, but looking at his Boston career, he wasn't even Benintendi, who some posters deem overrated, as well -- Dugo had 8.2 WAR in his 4 years for the Sox; Beni 10.2 WAR his first 4 years... and Alex never hit 20 homers or stole 20 bases, like Andrew. The latter was also an All-Star and Gold Glover once he left Beantown... achievements that have eluded Verdugo so far...

 

Tanking in 2020 made Dugo's year one value useless.

 

He really only helped us win in 2021.

 

To me, he was a letdown, despite doing okay. I agree, we should have expected better than an okay player for Betts.

 

The let down:

 

2019 (LAD) and 2020 (BOS:) Ages 23-24

.300 18 59 in 598 PAs

.827 OPS (117 OPS+)

 

2021-2023 (Ages 25-27)

.278 12 64 per 600 PAs

.751 OPS (103 OPS+)

 

Had he just repeated '19-'20 stats, it would not have been as bad.

 

[notin]

Just busting balls...

 

... unlike Holley: "Verdugo for three nobodies!"

 

However, Tomase points out that one was Eastern League Pitcher of the Month.

 

Hint: his name was dreaded in school by any substitute teacher who had to take attendance... "Who's -- "

 

And we might lose that guy in the Rule 5 draft today.

 

Heck the Yankees could take him right back…

[S5Dewey]

Ownership just realized they didn't want to pay what it would take to keep him so they let him go. It was a stupid decision. It was Ruthian level bad.

 

To quote Chad Finn, "There is no excuse for trading a generational player. Especially when you're the Boston Red Sox."

[moonslav59]

To quote Chad Finn, "There is no excuse for trading a generational player. Especially when you're the Boston Red Sox."

 

There was no excuse not extending him is the better terminology.

[moonslav59]

And we might lose that guy in the Rule 5 draft today.

 

Heck the Yankees could take him right back…

 

And we can use the $25K to sign Yamo!!!''

 

[S5Dewey]

There was no excuse not extending him is the better terminology.

 

Whichever. If there's any one thing JH and/or the FO should be vilified for it's letting Mookie Betts get away.

 

I get the idea of tying up too much money in one player and the effect it has on future signings, but this is the Boston Red Sox, a team where the fans will (begrudgingly) pay some of the highest ticket prices in baseball. But in return they expect to see star players and a team that's a contender every year.

 

Not extending him - or however we want to say it - was the first indication that JH is no longer striving for excellence in the BRS. That attitude is how we got to where we are today. The big question now in my mind is whether all those empty seats in September sent a message to JH that the fans may not be willing to settle for second rate in exchange for high ticket prices.

[mvp 78]

What about Abreu's defensive instincts and range?

 

I'm all for giving him and Rafaela a shot, but I think we need a better plan B than Mr. Platoon Refsnyder.

 

Current Scouting Grades

 

Verdugo:

Speed 45

Field 50

 

Abreu:

Speed 55

Field 55

[moonslav59]

Whichever. If there's any one thing JH and/or the FO should be vilified for it's letting Mookie Betts get away.

 

I get the idea of tying up too much money in one player and the effect it has on future signings, but this is the Boston Red Sox, a team where the fans will (begrudgingly) pay some of the highest ticket prices in baseball. But in return they expect to see star players and a team that's a contender every year.

 

Not extending him - or however we want to say it - was the first indication that JH is no longer striving for excellence in the BRS. That attitude is how we got to where we are today. The big question now in my mind is whether all those empty seats in September sent a message to JH that the fans may not be willing to settle for second rate in exchange for high ticket prices.

 

I totally agree.

 

What made it worse was not using the money saved until 2-3 years later, and then botching that spending.

[mvp 78]

I get it -- "any return is better than letting him walk and just getting a draft pick" -- but then again, look where it ended up:

 

Verdugo -- "the centerpiece in the Betts trade" (as he was called by media, even when it was just him and Graterol and no center) -- has now become, basically... just draft picks -- that the enemy deemed expendable.

 

I was all in on acquiring Verdugo because of his potential, but looking at his Boston career, he wasn't even Benintendi, who some posters deem overrated, as well -- Dugo had 8.2 WAR in his 4 years for the Sox; Beni 10.2 WAR his first 4 years... and Alex never hit 20 homers or stole 20 bases, like Andrew. The latter was also an All-Star and Gold Glover once he left Beantown... achievements that have eluded Verdugo so far...

 

He was the centerpiece? I thought the prize was the highly rated Jeter Downs who flamed out?

[mvp 78]

I get it -- "any return is better than letting him walk and just getting a draft pick" -- but then again, look where it ended up:

 

Verdugo -- "the centerpiece in the Betts trade" (as he was called by media, even when it was just him and Graterol and no center) -- has now become, basically... just draft picks -- that the enemy deemed expendable.

 

I was all in on acquiring Verdugo because of his potential, but looking at his Boston career, he wasn't even Benintendi, who some posters deem overrated, as well -- Dugo had 8.2 WAR in his 4 years for the Sox; Beni 10.2 WAR his first 4 years... and Alex never hit 20 homers or stole 20 bases, like Andrew. The latter was also an All-Star and Gold Glover once he left Beantown... achievements that have eluded Verdugo so far...

 

On Beni vs Verdugo:

 

Since 2020

 

Beni 4.1 fWAR

Verdugo 7 fWAR

 

I'm not seeing the comp here? Most of Beni's value came from 2018 when he had 5 fWAR, a season he has never replicated again. He may be a true one hit wonder.