Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[Dipre]

Sale needs to be factored into any possible permutation of the '24 rotation. What can't be done is count on him for a full starter's workload.

[Bellhorn04]

If it's not Sale, it will be someone else. We need to start planning on an injury or two. It happens every year.

 

We convert a long relief guy, who was doing great in that role, to the rotation and then watch them come up short, again and again.

 

We may have even pulled a Bard on Whitlock.

 

I get what you're saying. But sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The Yankees converted King from relief to starting and he's been doing very well.

 

The Red Sox evaluation and coaching of pitchers remains very suspect. This year we saw Littell and Brasier go to other teams and succeed.

[Hugh2]

Whose decision was it to put Whit in the rotation? Cora, Bloom, or both?

 

Whitlock has the prototypical starters build and was developed as a starter.

 

Only being selected as a rule 5 guy put him in the pen. Of all the things to hate Bloom for, this is probably last on the list. I don't think there is a GM or CBO out there who would not of made that same exact decision.

[moonslav59]

Whose decision was it to put Whit in the rotation? Cora, Bloom, or both?

 

I'm not faulting the attempt. I'm faulting the continuation, after it seemed clear he was better suited for the pen, and his health concerns should have sealed the deal.

 

Blame one- blame them all. At this point, does it matter? Just stop using him as a SP. I'd say the same about Houck, although he has proven he can go 18 batters deep more often than not, and these days, that makes for a fine #4 or #5 in many winning team's plans. I'm not sure about Crawford, but I'd prefer to not try, again. Just leave him as a long man, where he was doing very well, this year.

 

He started the year in the rotation:

8.00 ERA

Then, 1.66 as a RP'er in 8 games (6 at 2 or more IP)

Then back to the rotation:

4.47 ERA, which is not all that bad (4.6 IP per GS)

 

Just make a plan where Crawford, Houck and Whitlock are safely placed in the pen with little chance of being needed as a SP.

[Hugh2]

I get what you're saying. But sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The Yankees converted King from relief to starting and he's been doing very well.

 

The Red Sox evaluation and coaching of pitchers remains very suspect. This year we saw Littell and Brasier go to other teams and succeed.

 

I don't think comparing Bard to Whitlock is very fair at all.

 

Whitlock, unlike Bard had more than just a 1-2 pitch mix, Whitlock is also built more like a starter. Also, Bard started to fall apart at the end of the year before he was converted. Whitlock was also developed as a starter and only moved to the pen to be kept on the roster as a rule 5 guy who was coming back from injury. Apples to Oranges and unfair comparison.

 

Also, Whi

[mvp 78]

Sale needs to be factored into any possible permutation of the '24 rotation. What can't be done is count on him for a full starter's workload.

 

Sliding him into the 5th slot with a mid season injury and Wikelman Gonzalez taking over for the 2nd half!

[mvp 78]

I get what you're saying. But sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The Yankees converted King from relief to starting and he's been doing very well.

 

The Red Sox evaluation and coaching of pitchers remains very suspect. This year we saw Littell and Brasier go to other teams and succeed.

 

Whitlock would be able to do it if the injuries didn't hold him back.

[mvp 78]

I don't think comparing Bard to Whitlock is very fair at all.

 

Whitlock, unlike Bard had more than just a 1-2 pitch mix, Whitlock is also built more like a starter. Also, Bard started to fall apart at the end of the year before he was converted. Whitlock was also developed as a starter and only moved to the pen to be kept on the roster as a rule 5 guy who was coming back from injury. Apples to Oranges and unfair comparison.

 

Also, Whi

 

Many forget about this.

 

I don't see the comparison at all. Maybe a better comparison would be Joba? IDK.

[Old Red]

Whitlock would be able to do it if the injuries didn't hold him back.

 

To do what? He’s better in the pen. I get it that he’s a cheap option for the rotation along with Houck, but both to me would be better in the pen, and I’ve said it for two years now.

[Hugh2]

Many forget about this.

 

I don't see the comparison at all. Maybe a better comparison would be Joba? IDK.

 

Dear god I hope you're wrong, but FWIW Whitlock has probably looked better in the pen for longer than Joba ever did.

[Hugh2]

To do what? He’s better in the pen. I get it that he’s a cheap option for the rotation along with Houck, but both to me would be better in the pen, and I’ve said it for two years now.

 

Red, effectively every single pitcher to ever play the game is better in the pen.

 

When you don't have to see the same batter 3 times.

When you can scale back your arsenal to 2 pitches and focus on being better at just those two.

When you only have to throw one inning and can reach back and throw harder.

When you can be used specifically at certain times where match up favor you.

 

Your stats get better. I guarantee you if we took every single starter in the league and put them in the bullpen for a season 99.99% of them are going to be better.

 

To me, the best argument against Putting Garrett in the bullpen is his apparent inability to stay healthy in a rotation. So I'm with ya....just for the right reasons.

[mvp 78]

Dear god I hope you're wrong, but FWIW Whitlock has probably looked better in the pen for longer than Joba ever did.

 

I don't know if we ever see 2021 Whitlock again.

[mvp 78]

To do what? He’s better in the pen. I get it that he’s a cheap option for the rotation along with Houck, but both to me would be better in the pen, and I’ve said it for two years now.

 

He could have been a mid rotation starter.

[Bellhorn04]

He could have been a mid rotation starter.

 

Except he kept getting hurt.

[mvp 78]

Except he kept getting hurt.

 

Yes. I have said that the injuries held him back in a post this AM. That's why I said "could have been" a mid rotation starter. The injuries have effectively ended that shot.

[Old Red]

Red, effectively every single pitcher to ever play the game is better in the pen.

 

When you don't have to see the same batter 3 times.

When you can scale back your arsenal to 2 pitches and focus on being better at just those two.

When you only have to throw one inning and can reach back and throw harder.

When you can be used specifically at certain times where match up favor you.

 

Your stats get better. I guarantee you if we took every single starter in the league and put them in the bullpen for a season 99.99% of them are going to be better.

 

To me, the best argument against Putting Garrett in the bullpen is his apparent inability to stay healthy in a rotation. So I'm with ya....just for the right reasons.

 

Thanks for the lesson. The Sox have plenty of those guys, Pivetta, Wink, Kut Man, Houck, and Whit. Throw in Martin, and Jansen, and it sounds like a good BP to me.

[moonslav59]

Thanks for the lesson. The Sox have plenty of those guys, Pivetta, Wink, Kut Man, Houck, and Whit. Throw in Martin, and Jansen, and it sounds like a good BP to me.

 

The fact is, we didn't have these guys, before 2023 in the pen.

 

Ripping them away from the pen, so they can fail as SP'ers was not the right idea.

 

I admit, I thought Whitlock had the make-up to be a SP'er, but once he had hip surgery, he should not have been pushed to start.

 

(I do not think making him a SP'er in 2022 caused the injury, like some seem to think.)

 

Houck was a decent SP'er to start his career. I can see why he was given another chance.

 

My point is, we know, now, but still continue the practice.

 

[Old Red]

The fact is, we didn't have these guys, before 2023 in the pen.

 

Ripping them away from the pen, so they can fail as SP'ers was not the right idea.

 

I admit, I thought Whitlock had the make-up to be a SP'er, but once he had hip surgery, he should not have been pushed to start.

 

(I do not think making him a SP'er in 2022 caused the injury, like some seem to think.)

 

Houck was a decent SP'er to start his career. I can see why he was given another chance.

 

My point is, we know, now, but still continue the practice.

 

 

Like I keep saying they are cheap options for the rotation.

[moonslav59]

Like I keep saying they are cheap options for the rotation.

 

Yes, that is one reason they chose those paths.

 

I'm thinking about going forward. I would try like hell to make sure Whitlock never starts another game for us. I try to make sure Houck and Crawford don't, either, but using one as an emergency starter seems logical (not both.)

[notin]

Yes, that is one reason they chose those paths.

 

I'm thinking about going forward. I would try like hell to make sure Whitlock never starts another game for us. I try to make sure Houck and Crawford don't, either, but using one as an emergency starter seems logical (not both.)

 

Houck and Whitlock shouldn’t. Crawford has been improving as a starter despite moving past career high limits in IP.

 

The Sox E also very unlikely to add 3 starting pitchers this off-season…

[mvp 78]

Houck and Whitlock shouldn’t. Crawford has been improving as a starter despite moving past career high limits in IP.

 

The Sox E also very unlikely to add 3 starting pitchers this off-season…

 

Crawford seems most likely to stick in the rotation at least over the short term.

[notin]

Crawford seems most likely to stick in the rotation at least over the short term.

 

It seems like Bello, Crawford, Pivetta and Sale will fill the back 3 rotation spots. One of them is likely to be injured at any point in time. (Guess which one.)

[Old Red]

Yes, that is one reason they chose those paths.

 

I'm thinking about going forward. I would try like hell to make sure Whitlock never starts another game for us. I try to make sure Houck and Crawford don't, either, but using one as an emergency starter seems logical (not both.)

As the Red Sox have found out the last two years you have to plan pretty much on having at the very least a 8 man rotation especially if Sale is in it.

[notin]

As the Red Sox have found out the last two years you have to plan pretty much on having at the very least a 8 man rotation especially if Sale is in it.

 

Teams usually line up 7-10 SP every year. But often those last spots are guys either from the farm or on MiLB contracts, so they’re not reliable. But every team does this and no team just uses 5 SP all year, where’ whether they have Chris Sale or not…

[moonslav59]

Houck and Whitlock shouldn’t. Crawford has been improving as a starter despite moving past career high limits in IP.

 

The Sox E also very unlikely to add 3 starting pitchers this off-season…

 

I know it's unlikely. Hell, I think it's unlikely we add two solid SP'ers.

 

Crawford has a 4.78 ERA as a SP'er, thisa year.

 

It's at 5.44 his last 9 starts.

 

Throw out his first 2 starts and it's at 4.47 in his 20 starts since being added to the rotation for good, back in early June. That's not bad, especially for a first long stretch of starting, but it's no ringing endorsement.

 

I'd prefer he stay in the pen.

 

If we end up with Bello, Houck and Pivetta as our 3-5 SP'ers, we may need several good long relievers in the pen.

[moonslav59]

Teams usually line up 7-10 SP every year. But often those last spots are guys either from the farm or on MiLB contracts, so they’re not reliable. But every team does this and no team just uses 5 SP all year, where’ whether they have Chris Sale or not…

 

I thought we had decent SP'er depth, last March. Mediocre but okay on quantity.

 

It turned out Wink was never used in the rotation (thankfully,) and Mata got hurt again (surprise, surprise.)

 

Sale

Paxton

Kluber

Bello

Whitlock

Houck

Pivetta

Winckowski

Crawford

 

That was 9 with ML experience, then we had...

Walter (9th ranked on SPs)

Mata (5th ranked on SPs)

Murphy (17th ranked in March)

(Drohan 13th and Wikelman 14th were viewed as too far away for 2023.)

 

It's not the greatest 11-12, but it was not all that horrible looking on opening day.

 

To me, it looked better than the 2022 rotation on opening day- before we knew Wacha and Hill would do pretty well.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I thought we had decent SP'er depth, last March. Mediocre but okay on quantity.

 

It turned out Wink was never used in the rotation (thankfully,) and Mata got hurt again (surprise, surprise.)

 

Sale

Paxton

Kluber

Bello

Whitlock

Houck

Pivetta

Winckowski

Crawford

 

That was 9 with ML experience, then we had...

Walter (9th ranked on SPs)

Mata (5th ranked on SPs)

Murphy (17th ranked in March)

(Drohan 13th and Wikelman 14th were viewed as too far away for 2023.)

 

It's not the greatest 11-12, but it was not all that horrible looking on opening day.

 

To me, it looked better than the 2022 rotation on opening day- before we knew Wacha and Hill would do pretty well.

 

 

But now look at how many MLB innings each of those pitchers pitched in 2022.

[notin]

I know it's unlikely. Hell, I think it's unlikely we add two solid SP'ers.

 

Crawford has a 4.78 ERA as a SP'er, thisa year.

 

It's at 5.44 his last 9 starts.

 

Throw out his first 2 starts and it's at 4.47 in his 20 starts since being added to the rotation for good, back in early June. That's not bad, especially for a first long stretch of starting, but it's no ringing endorsement.

 

I'd prefer he stay in the pen.

 

If we end up with Bello, Houck and Pivetta as our 3-5 SP'ers, we may need several good long relievers in the pen.

 

 

I think 2 SPs isn’t an unreasonable request. It won’t be two from the set of Nola/Snell/Yamamoto; it’s possible one of them might not be so appealing to us, hopefully just at first.

 

I also hope the new CBO plans to shore up the infield defense and preferably pares down the corner OF options. Both these moves can overlap…

[Dipre]

Just a side note: The current staff could play up with a better D, and future acquisitions may play down. They must address the defense as a team.

[moonslav59]

But now look at how many MLB innings each of those pitchers pitched in 2022.

 

Indeed, but at the time, I thought the only good thing we did have was depth. I kept saying we "choose quantity over quality," and it turned out the quantity was not nearly enough, either. (Certainly the quality was not good, either.)

 

Now, the plan is to pencil Sale into a top 5 slot and expect him to give us how many starts?

 

I'm not writng Sale off, but we better plan on zero from him. Maybe he gives us 20-25, but then someone else will likely get hurt or pull a Kluber or Richards on us.