6/19 @ Land of 10,000 Mistakes

[Maxbialystock]

Boy I liked Vazquez... good player. Wong has been great- but still miss V

 

I do not, mostly because of his atrocious baserunning.

 

And right now I like both Wong and McGuire a lot.

[Dipre]

Sure, but managerial wins are also usually linked to what team you managed and depend on a lot of variables. You can be an idiot with a stacked team or be a genius with not a lot of talent to work with. Most people consider Aaron Boone an idiot but he's approaching 500 wins as a manager.

 

I think its clear Valentine was bad in 2012

 

Cora's pretty good right now. Let's give him some credit

[Jasonbay44]

Actually, I'm pretty sure they did not send Pedey back to AAA. He had a horrible start, all right, but they were confident he would come around--which he did, I think in June. The very next year he was the AL MVP.

 

I think Casas is getting a chance to prove himself because everyone else has been so bad at 1B and because they believe he can in fact hit.

 

I don't see a reason to mess with Casas. There isn't realistically a better option than him and they should let him figure it out at the MLB level. Jerking him around from the minors to majors and giving who? Dalbec more AB? Just doesn't make much sense.

 

Casas has a solid approach and has been improving each month. They clearly believe in him and I don't think he's given them a reason to give up on him.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Sure, but managerial wins are also usually linked to what team you managed and depend on a lot of variables. You can be an idiot with a stacked team or be a genius with not a lot of talent to work with. Most people consider Aaron Boone an idiot but he's approaching 500 wins as a manager.

 

I think its clear Valentine was bad in 2012

 

No one was worse than Kerrigan.

[Maxbialystock]

Forget the discussion on Cora. This was one terrific win, and Cora didn't throw a single pitch, get any hits, or make any defensive plays. The players did it all. Well, most of it. mvp 78 did start the game thread.

 

Agree with the comments on the good defense (for a change). And who was that guy going the last two innings, which were scoreless? Garza!

[Jasonbay44]

Cora's pretty good right now. Let's give him some credit

 

I'm not saying he's bad or calling for his head. But people on here are either slurping him for every last thing he does or calling for his head.

 

He isn't responsible for some of the things that happened like Kluber being horrible or for the Red Sox signing and starting a racist homophobe and basically punting a game.

 

But I also think its fair to question some things - like the extremely long leash Kike got at SS with his overall bad play and for his tendency to trust Ryan Brasier a bit too much. For example, he let him attempt to save two games, why? . I also question why Ryan Brasier was even on the roster, but that's a different topic.

[moonslav59]

I don't see a reason to mess with Casas. There isn't realistically a better option than him and they should let him figure it out at the MLB level. Jerking him around from the minors to majors and giving who? Dalbec more AB? Just doesn't make much sense.

 

Casas has a solid approach and has been improving each month. They clearly believe in him and I don't think he's given them a reason to give up on him.

 

There is no reason we'd demote Casas. His splits are pretty even, so far this year, but he's been know to struggle vs LHPs, so there might be times he sits vs a lefty, but I doubt we look to straight platoon him with Turner (who DHs vs RHPs.)

 

The Pedey example is famous, but there may be more examples like Dalbec, who was given a long look and came through, at the end of 2021, but then... poof!

 

(BTW, I've not given up on Dalbec, just yet, either, but it looks like he may get a chance with another team, not us.

[Jasonbay44]

No one was worse than Kerrigan.

 

I wasn't old enough to comprehend what was really happening at the time, but yes, I've heard he was awful.

[Dipre]

I'm not saying he's bad or calling for his head. But people on here are either slurping him for every last thing he does or calling for his head.

 

He isn't responsible for some of the things that happened like Kluber being horrible or for the Red Sox signing and starting a racist homophobe and basically punting a game.

 

But I also think its fair to question some things - like the extremely long leash Kike got at SS with his overall bad play and for his tendency to trust Ryan Brasier a bit too much. For example, he let him attempt to save two games, why? . I also question why Ryan Brasier was even on the roster, but that's a different topic.

 

Cora's main weakness as a manager is his loyalty to his players, but that's also his greatest strength, especially generating that same fierce loyalty from his players. Gotra take the bad with the good.

[Jasonbay44]

There is no reason we'd demote Casas. His splits are pretty even, so far this year, but he's been know to struggle vs LHPs, so there might be times he sits vs a lefty, but I doubt we look to straight platoon him with Turner (who DHs vs RHPs.)

 

The Pedey example is famous, but there may be more examples like Dalbec, who was given a long look and came through, at the end of 2021, but then... poof!

 

(BTW, I've not given up on Dalbec, just yet, either, but it looks like he may get a chance with another team, not us.

 

It wouldn't shock me if Dalbec did get traded and ended up figuring it out with another team. Sometimes player just need a change of scenery.

[Dipre]

It wouldn't shock me if Dalbec did get traded and ended up figuring it out with another team. Sometimes player just need a change of scenery.

 

His numbers this year show a much better approach at the plate.

[wyo-sox]

Dalbec never looked bad to me... just didn't ever look really good consistently. But seemed like a decent ball player. I hope he get a solid run in the majors.

[Maxbialystock]

Sure, but managerial wins are also usually linked to what team you managed and depend on a lot of variables. You can be an idiot with a stacked team or be a genius with not a lot of talent to work with. Most people consider Aaron Boone an idiot but he's approaching 500 wins as a manager.

 

I think its clear Valentine was bad in 2012

 

I think you need to come clean and admit you think Cora is worse than Valentine.

 

Or, if you don't think that, maybe you could rein in some of nasty oratory about Cora's in game decisions. So far this season, I think you have an unblemished record for giving Cora absolutely no credit for anything good this team has done.

[vegasbob]

Well, bear in mind that if you measure managerial success in pennants, who the best manager in Sox history is…

 

Only 7 Sox managers have won a WS title. Tito has 2 of them and my old friend Bill Carrigan has 2 . Pinky F. Higgins had 2 stints and couldn't win anything meaningful. Yawkey protected him from the scourge of multi-racial baseball

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I wasn't old enough to comprehend what was really happening at the time, but yes, I've heard he was awful.

 

And he was able to accomplish his total awfulness in only 46 games managed in 2001.

[moonslav59]

No one was worse than Kerrigan.

 

I'd have to vote for Bobby V.

 

Darrell Johnson bugged the s*** out of me with his petty favoritism crap.

 

Joe Morgan just threw stuff at the wall to see if it would stick. I think he had his kid make out the line-up one day.

 

Kerrigan barely was here long enough to judge much.

[Dipre]

I think you need to come clean and admit you think Cora is worse than Valentine.

 

Or, if you don't think that, maybe you could rein in some of nasty oratory about Cora's in game decisions. So far this season, I think you have an unblemished record for giving Cora absolutely no credit for anything good this team has done.

 

Shots fired.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Dipre

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Only 7 Sox managers have won a WS title. Tito has 2 of them and my old friend Bill Carrigan has 2 . Pinky F. Higgins had 2 stints and couldn't win anything meaningful. Yawkey protected him from the scourge of multi-racial baseball

 

Yawkey was a stain on MLB.

[illinoisredsox]

It wouldn't shock me if Dalbec did get traded and ended up figuring it out with another team. Sometimes player just need a change of scenery.

 

I hope he does put it together somewhere else and if he does, it doesn't matter. His only value to Boston is what he can contribute to the Red Sox, which, despite multiple chances, he really hasn't done other than a good 1/3 of the 2021 season.

 

Not everyone is built to play in Boston; Bobby D. may be someone who isn't.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I hope he does put it together somewhere else and if he does, it doesn't matter. His only value to Boston is what he can contribute to the Red Sox, which, despite multiple chances, he really hasn't done other than a good 1/3 of the 2021 season.

 

Not everyone is built to play in Boston; Bobby D. may be someone who isn't.

 

Boston and New York. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. If you can't make it there, you can still make it somewhere else.

[notin]

I hope he does put it together somewhere else and if he does, it doesn't matter. His only value to Boston is what he can contribute to the Red Sox, which, despite multiple chances, he really hasn't done other than a good 1/3 of the 2021 season.

 

Not everyone is built to play in Boston; Bobby D. may be someone who isn't.

 

 

Oh on this board it does…

[notin]

Only 7 Sox managers have won a WS title. Tito has 2 of them and my old friend Bill Carrigan has 2 . Pinky F. Higgins had 2 stints and couldn't win anything meaningful. Yawkey protected him from the scourge of multi-racial baseball

 

 

If you’re going solely by AL East pennants (pardon my ambiguity), then the most successful manager is John Farrell, with three. Francona, surprisingly, only had one.

 

Farrell was certainly helped by managing in one of the weakest stretches in AL East history…

[notin]

Boston and New York. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. If you can't make it there, you can still make it somewhere else.*

 

*Does not apply to David Ortiz….

[Jasonbay44]

I think you need to come clean and admit you think Cora is worse than Valentine.

 

Or, if you don't think that, maybe you could rein in some of nasty oratory about Cora's in game decisions. So far this season, I think you have an unblemished record for giving Cora absolutely no credit for anything good this team has done.

 

I don't even mention Cora most the times in game threads. If anything the one I'm usually criticizing is the umpires or the plethora of s***** pitchers we bring out each night. This is the most I've talked about Cora all season. The only thing I even remember mentioning recently was that he said Reyes would be starting at SS more over Kike and I praised him for that.

 

I'm way more likely to criticize a player than I am the manager... You can literally look at my post history.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm not saying he's bad or calling for his head. But people on here are either slurping him for every last thing he does or calling for his head.

 

He isn't responsible for some of the things that happened like Kluber being horrible or for the Red Sox signing and starting a racist homophobe and basically punting a game.

 

But I also think its fair to question some things - like the extremely long leash Kike got at SS with his overall bad play and for his tendency to trust Ryan Brasier a bit too much. For example, he let him attempt to save two games, why? . I also question why Ryan Brasier was even on the roster, but that's a different topic.

 

Actually, I think I'm the only "people" defending Cora regularly. And for me it's simple why I do. He managed the best Sox team in 123 seasons of their existence. He definitely had great players that season, 2018, but they also won a lot of 1 run games. Then MLB banned him from the 2020 season, and the Sox rehired him without batting any eye. I thought his managing in the 2021 postseason was terrific, especially with no closer.

 

This season, as I've said, Cora is managing a team whose payroll is ranked 15th, which is the lowest ranking (by a wide margin) of the John Henry era and probably of the last 50 years. And I am not unaware that the best two AL East teams, Tampa and Baltimore, both have much smaller payrolls than the Sox. Nevertheless, what Cora is being asked to do is unprecedented for a Sox manager. The injuries to Duvall, Story, Sale, Houck, Schreiber, Chang, et al, only add to his burden.

[moonslav59]

I hope he does put it together somewhere else and if he does, it doesn't matter. His only value to Boston is what he can contribute to the Red Sox, which, despite multiple chances, he really hasn't done other than a good 1/3 of the 2021 season.

 

Not everyone is built to play in Boston; Bobby D. may be someone who isn't.

 

That hot streak was enough to support his first 2 year line of...

 

.244 33 94 (.819 OPS)

 

Pro-rate to 650 PAs:

 

.244 40 110

 

Also, the hot streak of 2021 was more like 2/3 a season not 1/3.

 

June 10-Oct 3: 916 OPS

 

May 13th to Oct 3: .867 OPS

 

He did okay for about a half season in '22, as well

 

May 10 to Aug 10th: .737 OPS

Prorated to 650:

.235 30 85

[Maxbialystock]

I don't even mention Cora most the times in game threads. If anything the one I'm usually criticizing is the umpires or the plethora of s***** pitchers we bring out each night. This is the most I've talked about Cora all season. The only thing I even remember mentioning recently was that he said Reyes would be starting at SS more over Kike and I praised him for that.

 

I'm way more likely to criticize a player than I am the manager... You can literally look at my post history.

 

I believe you.

[Jasonbay44]

I hope he does put it together somewhere else and if he does, it doesn't matter. His only value to Boston is what he can contribute to the Red Sox, which, despite multiple chances, he really hasn't done other than a good 1/3 of the 2021 season.

 

Not everyone is built to play in Boston; Bobby D. may be someone who isn't.

 

His numbers in the minors right now are ridiculous. I imagine someone takes a shot on him. He could have finally figured it out, he could be an AAAA player. Jury is definitely still out. He is about to turn 28, so hes getting close to make or break for his career.

[illinoisredsox]

Oh on this board it does…

 

Yeah, I know that.

 

I'll stand by my statement though.

[moonslav59]

Actually, I think I'm the only "people" defending Cora regularly. And for me it's simple why I do. He managed the best Sox team in 123 seasons of their existence. He definitely had great players that season, 2018, but they also won a lot of 1 run games. Then MLB banned him from the 2020 season, and the Sox rehired him without batting any eye. I thought his managing in the 2021 postseason was terrific, especially with no closer.

 

This season, as I've said, Cora is managing a team whose payroll is ranked 15th, which is the lowest ranking (by a wide margin) of the John Henry era and probably of the last 50 years. And I am not unaware that the best two AL East teams, Tampa and Baltimore, both have much smaller payrolls than the Sox. Nevertheless, what Cora is being asked to do is unprecedented for a Sox manager. The injuries to Duvall, Story, Sale, Houck, Schreiber, Chang, et al, only add to his burden.

 

I'm with you, Max. I've had a few beefs with a few things Cora does, but out of the thousands of things he does, a handful of beefs is minor.

 

I'm a huge fan of Cora. There was a Time I felt he was the best Sox manager I have ever seen, no slight on Tito intended, and I was not a Sox fan during the Dick Williams years. I'm not so sure, anymore, but he's right up there with Tito and Dick.