Story has surgery

[notin]

But Sale was cleared by the docs and pitched 147 innings and struck out 13.1 per 9.

 

So the argument about "waiting a few months to see if Sale is healthy" doesn't hold up. He did look healthy after a few months.

 

 

At the time, I thought it was a cheap deal that I was surprised he signed, given the deals being thrown around at older and worse pitchers like Price, Greinke, etc. And especially since Sale spent the bulk of his career as the most underpaid player in the sport thanks to that initial White Sox contract. Not sure if that ever bothered him or he wanted to rectify that reputation.

 

I never made the “wait a few months” argument ever. That doesn’t even make sense. What the logic? “If he doesn’t get hurt by June 1, he NEVER EVER WILL!!”

 

If anything, I’d be on board with the protective clauses like the Sox had in the deals for Lackey and JD Martinez…

[Bellhorn04]

At the time, I thought it was a cheap deal that I was surprised he signed, given the deals being thrown around at older and worse pitchers like Price, Greinke, etc. And especially since Sale spent the bulk of his career as the most underpaid player in the sport thanks to that initial White Sox contract. Not sure if that ever bothered him or he wanted to rectify that reputation.

 

I never made the “wait a few months” argument ever. That doesn’t even make sense. What the logic? “If he doesn’t get hurt by June 1, he NEVER EVER WILL!!”

 

Well, there were reasons to question whether he was healthy at the end of 2018.

[notin]

It seems like it's become a thing for position players too now...

 

Is it?

 

I can think of maybe 10 or so players to have it in the past 15 years. I’m sure there are plenty I don’t know about, but even if you triple my known quantity, we’re talking about 2 players per year.

 

I think it’s still pretty uncommon…

[moonslav59]

At the time, I thought it was a cheap deal that I was surprised he signed, given the deals being thrown around at older and worse pitchers like Price, Greinke, etc. And especially since Sale spent the bulk of his career as the most underpaid player in the sport thanks to that initial White Sox contract. Not sure if that ever bothered him or he wanted to rectify that reputation.

 

I never made the “wait a few months” argument ever. That doesn’t even make sense. What the logic? “If he doesn’t get hurt by June 1, he NEVER EVER WILL!!”

 

If anything, I’d be on board with the protective clauses like the Sox had in the deals for Lackey and JD Martinez…

 

Sale was pre-arb when he signed that deal with the CWS. He was scheduled for 3 arb years from 2014-2016. It paid him $850K for his final pre-arb season in 2013, then $3.5, 6.0 and 9.15 before the $12M in what would have been his first FA season in 2017. The kickers were the club options for the next two years, which turned into no- brainers at $25.5M then $15M for the final season under that deal.

 

That deal was signed in March 2013. It turned out to be a great team-friendly deal, but Sale had only 286 IP under his belt, at that time, and mayb e injury concerns led him to take all that guaranteed money.

 

Note: he had finished 6th in CY Young voting in 2012, his first full season in MLB, He had 71 IP in 2011.

[notin]

Well, there were reasons to question whether he was healthy at the end of 2018.

 

And I did, presumably among many others. I also theorized he knew it and that was a factor in accepting that deal. But that’s a theory. Sale won’t return my texts to confirm or deny it…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

There’s a big, big, big difference between extending a pitcher with an injured pitching elbow and signing an infielder with a flexor strain. Did the flexor strain even cost Story any games last season? He missed a lot of time with a wrist fracture from getting hit by a pitch, which is obviously completely unrelated…

 

Incorrect. According to Matrix metrics, the strained flexor slowed Story's torque avoidance reflexes by 0.1 fraction of a second, and he couldn't remove his wrist from the pitch flight before impact...

 

It's all there on baseballirrevence.com.

[Old Red]

Incorrect. According to Matrix metrics, the strained flexor slowed Story's torque avoidance reflexes by 0.1 fraction of a second, and he couldn't remove his wrist from the pitch flight before impact...

 

It's all there on baseballirrevence.com.

 

At any rate Story signed late in ST, and the stories out there said some teams passed on Story, because of worries about his elbow. Some theorized also that Story was signed by the Sox to appease the fan base who were voicing their displeasure with the Sox not making any big moves. Story also fired his agent shortly after the signing. Lots of questions all the way around.

[notin]

At any rate Story signed late in ST, and the stories out there said some teams passed on Story, because of worries about his elbow. Some theorized also that Story was signed by the Sox to appease the fan base who were voicing their displeasure with the Sox not making any big moves. Story also fired his agent shortly after the signing. Lots of questions all the way around.

 

Can’t say about why teams passed on him, although they certainly did. My assumption was simply he was the least interesting of the free agent shortstop class, which, while true, might not be why. Teams passed on Correa last off-season, too, and he’s a franchise-altering player.

 

However, it does seem as though his own teammates are standing up for him in that this was not an expected outcome. Not sure why Boston media talking heads - many of whom deliberately create controversy where there is none - get any more credibility here than Story’s teammates…

[moonslav59]

Can’t say about why teams passed on him, although they certainly did. My assumption was simply he was the least interesting of the free agent shortstop class, which, while true, might not be why. Teams passed on Correa last off-season, too, and he’s a franchise-altering player.

 

However, it does seem as though his own teammates are standing up for him in that this was not an expected outcome. Not sure why Boston media talking heads - many of whom deliberately create controversy where there is none - get any more credibility here than Story’s teammates…

 

I'm not sure the Tigers, who sign Baez and the Rangers, who signed Semien and even Seager are happy either, but at least they are healthy.

[Old Red]

Can’t say about why teams passed on him, although they certainly did. My assumption was simply he was the least interesting of the free agent shortstop class, which, while true, might not be why. Teams passed on Correa last off-season, too, and he’s a franchise-altering player.

 

However, it does seem as though his own teammates are standing up for him in that this was not an expected outcome. Not sure why Boston media talking heads - many of whom deliberately create controversy where there is none - get any more credibility here than Story’s teammates…

 

I think teams passed on Correa last year, because of money, and not for medicals like this year. I’m not blaming Story for anything, but only raising questions. I agree on the Boston media part, but it’s also other teams around the league. I heard a report that said Bagwell, and Biggio were talking about Story at the HOF last year, and said they knew he would need surgery, and also Jim Palmer voiced his opinion after hearing about Story needing surgery, so like. Said lots of questions all the way around.

[notin]

I think teams passed on Correa last year, because of money, and not for medicals like this year. I’m not blaming Story for anything, but only raising questions. I agree on the Boston media part, but it’s also other teams around the league. I heard a report that said Bagwell, and Biggio were talking about Story at the HOF last year, and said they knew he would need surgery, and also Jim Palmer voiced his opinion after hearing about Story needing surgery, so like. Said lots of questions all the way around.

 

Is there any link or context to the medical opinions of Biggio and Bagwell?

[Old Red]

Is there any link or context to the medical opinions of Biggio and Bagwell?

 

Good one, but #1 they were right, and both know a little bit about arms, elbows, and what it takes to throw a baseball around the diamond. I’m guessing both have had, and seen plenty of medical opinions in their careers.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

Is there any link or context to the medical opinions of Biggio and Bagwell?

 

Nothing on Google. Might have just been a drunk caller on talk radio.

[Old Red]

Nothing on Google. Might have just been a drunk caller on talk radio.

 

No, but even if it was they were right just like Bagwell, and Biggio were right, and I don’t think you had to be any kind of medical expert to be right either.

[notin]

No, but even if it was they were right just like Bagwell, and Biggio were right, and I don’t think you had to be any kind of medical expert to be right either.

 

But per your own story, Trevor played a full season on it.

 

There’s a good chance the Bagwell and Biggio thing - which from your post sounds like you only heard about and didn’t actually hear what they said - is nothing but a misinterpretation…

[Old Red]

But per your own story, Trevor played a full season on it.

 

There’s a good chance the Bagwell and Biggio thing - which from your post sounds like you only heard about and didn’t actually hear what they said - is nothing but a misinterpretation…

 

Trevor played a full season, and Sale pitched in 2019. These things don’t have to go all at once. No misinterpretation on Bagwell, and Biggio. Like they said at some point he would need surgery, which he did.

[moonslav59]

But per your own story, Trevor played a full season on it.

 

There’s a good chance the Bagwell and Biggio thing - which from your post sounds like you only heard about and didn’t actually hear what they said - is nothing but a misinterpretation…

 

No. You are overanalyzing. The whole world, except Bloom, knew Story was going to need surgery, even Biggio and Bags!

 

Until we can get a GM that overrides the medical recommendations of his staff, we have no chance at ever winning again.

[Old Red]

No. You are overanalyzing. The whole world, except Bloom, knew Story was going to need surgery, even Biggio and Bags!

 

Until we can get a GM that overrides the medical recommendations of his staff, we have no chance at ever winning again.

 

Do you know what the medical reports on Story said? No you don’t, and neither do I, but Bloom is keeping quiet if there were any concerns, or not, and it sounds like a. Cover up to me. It would be awfully easy to do to say nothing suspicious showed up on Story’s physical, but Bloom hasn’t done that. I wonder why.

[moonslav59]

Do you know what the medical reports on Story said? No you don’t, and neither do I, but Bloom is keeping quiet if there were any concerns, or not, and it sounds like a. Cover up to me. It would be awfully easy to do to say nothing suspicious showed up on Story’s physical, but Bloom hasn’t done that. I wonder why.

 

I don't wonder. There are confidentiality laws about talking about these things.

 

Yes, nobody knows what the physical revealed and what sort of risk level was given by the medical staff. We may never know.

 

I'm sure they knew there was a risk, despite what Dr. Biggio and Dr, Bagwell thought, it's not a given that every player with this type of elbow issue ends up under the knife.

 

We can speculate all day. We can lay blame all we want and focus it on one person or a few. The fact is, we made the wrong decision and now have to hope he can redeem some of his value in the last 4 years of his deal. Another large and long deal looking like a stinker for the Sox.

 

I can see why the team has avoided these types of deals, recently. Since the Price deal, only the Story deal has been longer than 5 years (Sale, JD & Yoshida were 5, and Nate was 4.)

 

[notin]

Do you know what the medical reports on Story said? No you don’t, and neither do I, but Bloom is keeping quiet if there were any concerns, or not, and it sounds like a. Cover up to me. It would be awfully easy to do to say nothing suspicious showed up on Story’s physical, but Bloom hasn’t done that. I wonder why.

 

So you don’t know what a cover up is either…

[moonslav59]

So you don’t know what a cover up is either…

 

What could be the cover-up?

 

The docs said, "Major injury risk," and Bloom ignored them?

 

The docs said "moderate injury risk." and Bloom took the chance and now doesn't want people to know it was all on him?

 

Is the cover-up about top brass meetings where Bloom went to the mat defending taking the risk and had to convince JH and others the risk-reward was worth it?

 

Who know? Maybe something like this did happen.

 

I'm not sure why following the law and not discussing medical information with the public "sounds like a cover up."

 

Somehow the info got out on why Correa's contracts were not finalized, so maybe we'll hear more about Story's situation, at some point. I know some are dying to find out it was all or mostly Bloom's fault, and when your the GM, that's the way it works, and often, it is the GMs fault or mostly his, but as of now, it's kind of speculative.

[vjcsmoke]

Why wasn’t this determination made in October? This is incompetence.

 

Agreed. But incompetence is par for the course for this Red Sox organization under Bloom's watch.

 

160m dollars is going to waste. Looks a lot like the next Pablo Sandoval signing.

 

Will we have to end up dumping talent just to get rid of his salary?

 

Even if we put all of that to the side the question still remains - who's going to be our opening day Shortstop now?

[Hugh2]

You got to love the off-season threads that just turn into a carrousel of repeating arguments. There are no winners, only daily, come back tomorrow and play again.

 

Maybe we just need pitchers and catchers to report so we can talk about something else. But this story situation is just stupid stupid stupid.

[Old Red]

You got to love the off-season threads that just turn into a carrousel of repeating arguments. There are no winners, only daily, come back tomorrow and play again.

 

Maybe we just need pitchers and catchers to report so we can talk about something else. But this story situation is just stupid stupid stupid.

Stupid all the way around. I agree, and all for the low sum of $140M.

[jacksonianmarch]

My thoughts on the Story case are that the Sox knew there was some damage. Story probably chose rest and rehab. It rarely works (see Tanaka) but it’s the patient’s decision. My bet is Bloom is staying quiet to protect Story from Boston’s ire. A good exec takes the heat even when it may not be warranted

[Old Red]

My thoughts on the Story case are that the Sox knew there was some damage. Story probably chose rest and rehab. It rarely works (see Tanaka) but it’s the patient’s decision. My bet is Bloom is staying quiet to protect Story from Boston’s ire. A good exec takes the heat even when it may not be warranted

 

It’s a very debatable subject if Bloom is a good exec, or not. Still plenty of questions, but very few answers.

[Bellhorn04]

My thoughts on the Story case are that the Sox knew there was some damage. Story probably chose rest and rehab. It rarely works (see Tanaka) but it’s the patient’s decision. My bet is Bloom is staying quiet to protect Story from Boston’s ire. A good exec takes the heat even when it may not be warranted

 

When exactly did Story choose rest and rehab?

[Old Red]

When exactly did Story choose rest and rehab?

 

Right, and the story goes that Story was ramping up his throwing when he developed the pain in his elbow.

[moonslav59]

My thoughts on the Story case are that the Sox knew there was some damage. Story probably chose rest and rehab. It rarely works (see Tanaka) but it’s the patient’s decision. My bet is Bloom is staying quiet to protect Story from Boston’s ire. A good exec takes the heat even when it may not be warranted

 

How many non pitchers have some degree of damage in their elbow and rest and rehab works?

 

I know it depends on the extent of damage, which may or may not be known precisely and what position the guy plays, like SS v 1B, but my guess is there are dozens and dozens of MLB players who have gotten bye without surgery. Correct me, if I am wrong.

 

Again, I'm not saying mistakes weren't made or that the blame should not be focused on just one or maybe two guys, but it's not a clear issue, at least right now. We may or may not find out details, later that focus more of the blame on one guy over another (or more,) but right know, we can only assume.

 

I do think it's safe to assume Story, Bloom, JH, top brass and the team medical staff knew there was an issue and a risk. They made the wrong choice based on accurate or faulty information. We don't know, if there were factions within those who made the call that swayed the decision to sign Story, or who was in opposing factions, if there were some. They may have all known the risk, but thought he was worth it. Hell, for all we know, they may have decided that even if he missed a year, he was worth about $140M/5, too.

 

It's not a simple process or decision.

 

On the Sale signing, I do think they expected he might miss a full season and would still have been worth $145M/4, too. That's just my opinion, and it looks like Sale's deal might end being more like $145M/ 1.5 or $145M/2.

 

 

[moonslav59]

When exactly did Story choose rest and rehab?

 

Maybe someone did tell him surgery was an option, or even that "someday, you will need surgery, if you keep playing 2B or SS."

 

I doubt someone said, "You should have surgery now," or "I recommend you have surgery, now," but who knows. Even if that was said, at any time, the doc might also have added, "Rest and rehab may work, too."

 

There are so many unknowns in this situation, it's hard to form an opinion. That's not to say, we can't conclude we made the wrong choice by signing him, unless you think he's worth $140M/5, which in today's market, he may still come close to that in production, over the last 4 years of the deal- doubtful, but possible, maybe.