2022-2023 Offseason Thread

[moonslav59]

Get a starting rotation that is more likely to stay healthy. Get a bullpen that isn't a complete trainwreck. Re-sign Bogey. Find a RFer.

 

I think we can resign Bogey or someone like Swanson, Nimmo in RF and a couple good pen arms and still reset the tax.

 

The hard part is getting a 1/2 starter. To me, he'd have to come via trade, and I'm not sure the top brass thinks this is the time for that. We can extend Devers and not have it count on the 2023 tax line, of we can look to reset in 2024 and extend him, this winter with a hefty signing bonus.

 

I think it is entirely possible we can have a nice team for 2023, reset, and keep the future intact, but I don't see us being a top 4-6 contender without pulling off a big trade or going way over the tax line... maybe both.

[moonslav59]

I have had the same thought. Trades often involve positions of depth.

 

I'd also keep Rafaela because he's already the system's best defensive player. Maybe he won't have a repeat Mookie extra base hit season, but good defense doesn't go into slumps (and having solid D is the quickest way for pro teams to regain respectability). I also think he'll be in Boston sooner than most predict, depending on how much infield Kike has to play.

 

I think this management team values defense, highly. They stuck with JBJ a long time. I think Rafaela will not be traded, despite him being one of the most sought after prospects we have.

[Old Red]

You even said yourself that what went on was because of injuries and underperformance so the team must not have been THAT bad. Sounds like you shouldn't even be too mad at Bloom!

 

Like I have said many times there was plenty of blame to go around for the way things turned out this year. Bloom made the team worse to start with by doing the JBJ trade, and him, and Cora had a bad so called plan for the backend of the BP. Bloom also waited until August to do anything about the BIG 1B, and OF problems. Couldn’t get enough of Franchy Strangeglove, and Duran Duran the Butterfly Man looking like Little Leaguers on the first day of tryouts a lot longer then should have been allowed to continue, so yea Bloom did just great.

[Old Red]

Kike had a great second half to 2021- not just the playoffs. He was clearly worth $7M.

 

IMO, if the majority of Sox fans thought a 108+ OPS with GG-type defense isn't worth $7M, I'd say I don't care what they think.

 

He and Dalbec just about carried the team in July and August. Kike had some big hits in September, too.

 

Kike hit .876 after June 27th (73 games). I think the recency affect would have given him a favorable vote, even before his playoff heroics.

 

What about 2022 when Kike sucked from day 1, and it took him until the end of May just to get above 200, and long before he was hurt too.

[moonslav59]

Moon has brought this company line up more than once, and if that’s how you want to look at things, and it makes you feel better fine, but to me they were a losing team, and that’s how I look at it.

 

It's not about making us feel fine. It's about trying to build a sustainable winning system and not repeating past mistakes.

 

"Buying the company line?"

 

I'm just going by past history, and I mentioned the fact that our history has had moments of "turning on a dime," and usually when that happened, we ended up suffering longer term consequences after a few moments of glory. We may go that path again.

 

I don't know what the "company line" or plan is. I think I have an idea, and it seems to line up with my preference than maybe your all-in NOW idea, but at any moment, they may switch to your way.

[Old Red]

It's not about making us feel fine. It's about trying to build a sustainable winning system and not repeating past mistakes.

 

"Buying the company line?"

 

I'm just going by past history, and I mentioned the fact that our history has had moments of "turning on a dime," and usually when that happened, we ended up suffering longer term consequences after a few moments of glory. We may go that path again.

 

I don't know what the "company line" or plan is. I think I have an idea, and it seems to line up with my preference than maybe your all-in NOW idea, but at any moment, they may switch to your way.

 

The company line talk was about how some looked at this past season like you did, and say if the Red Sox were in a different Div they wouldn’t be in last place. Past history has nothing to do with it.

[moonslav59]

Like I have said many times there was plenty of blame to go around for the way things turned out this year. Bloom made the team worse to start with by doing the JBJ trade, and him, and Cora had a bad so called plan for the backend of the BP. Bloom also waited until August to do anything about the BIG 1B, and OF problems. Couldn’t get enough of Franchy Strangeglove, and Duran Duran the Butterfly Man looking like Little Leaguers on the first day of tryouts a lot longer then should have been allowed to continue, so yea Bloom did just great.

 

Just curious on your thoughts on Bloom's overall additions to the 2022 team. Was it a net plus or minus? (Just the additions)

 

Story

Wacha

Schreiber (did pitch 3 IP in 2021)

Refsnyder

Hill

Strahm

Diekman

JBJ

(In season: McGuire, Pham, Hosmer, Abreu, EValdez, M Ferguson, C Rosier)

 

Traded Away:

Renfroe

(In season: Vaz, Groome, Deikman)

 

Net Plus or Minus?

[moonslav59]

The company line talk was about how some looked at this past season like you did, and say if the Red Sox were in a different Div they wouldn’t be in last place. Past history has nothing to do with it.

 

I don't see how that is the "company line," but you have your perspective.

 

The team was not as bad as the W-L record showed. You all but admitted that, yourself.

 

Now, 2022 is in the past, now, so it means nothing, right?

[Old Red]

Just curious on your thoughts on Bloom's overall additions to the 2022 team. Was it a net plus or minus? (Just the additions)

 

Story

Wacha

Schreiber (did pitch 3 IP in 2021)

Refsnyder

Hill

Strahm

Diekman

JBJ

(In season: McGuire, Pham, Hosmer, Abreu, EValdez, M Ferguson, C Rosier)

 

Traded Away:

Renfroe

(In season: Vaz, Groome, Deikman)

 

Net Plus or Minus?

 

I will say a net plus, but his pluses did not off set what I mentioned earlier as his minuses, and some of the net pluses were to little TO LATE.

[Old Red]

I don't see how that is the "company line," but you have your perspective.

 

The team was not as bad as the W-L record showed. You all but admitted that, yourself.

 

Now, 2022 is in the past, now, so it means nothing, right?

 

2022 does not mean anything for what happens in 2023, but 2022 is still getting plenty of air time.

[moonslav59]

What about 2022 when Kike sucked from day 1, and it took him until the end of May just to get above 200, and long before he was hurt too.

 

That wasn't the question I answered.

 

What about the 2022 Kike, a different question? He sucked. The injury did not give him much of a chance to change how much he sucked when he did play, but he sucked.

 

His D did not outweigh how much he sucked on O. He sucked.

 

Did I say he sucked enough for you?

[moonslav59]

2022 does not mean anything for what happens in 2023, but 2022 is still getting plenty of air time.

 

It shouldn't from you, any more than 2021 did after it was over.

Edited October 13, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

That wasn't the question I answered.

 

What about the 2022 Kike, a different question? He sucked. The injury did not give him much of a chance to change how much he sucked when he did play, but he sucked.

 

His D did not outweigh how much he sucked on O. He sucked.

 

Did I say he sucked enough for you?

I didn’t need it said he sucked. I already knew it, but glad you admitted it. Hope he gets back to at least his 239 career Ave. I’d hate to think Bloom just threw $10M away.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

I didn’t need it said he sucked. I already knew it, but glad you admitted it. Hope he gets back to at least his 239 career Ave. I’d hate to think Bloom just threw $10M away.

 

Better than Schwarber's 233 career Ave.!

[Old Red]

Better than Schwarber's 233 career Ave.!

 

Ave is where you start, and then you do the digging Schwarber has the power production, and Kike does not, so if you are just comparing Ave you are right, but once you go deeper into the stats it’s not much of a comparison, and both from the leadoff spot.

[Bellhorn04]

Ave is where you start, and then you do the digging Schwarber has the power production, and Kike does not, so if you are just comparing Ave you are right, but once you go deeper into the stats it’s not much of a comparison, and both from the leadoff spot.

 

And Kike is just a bit better on defense...

[Old Red]

And Kike is just a bit better on defense...

 

Kike is excellent on D no matter where you put him. No argument there.

[moonslav59]

I didn’t need it said he sucked. I already knew it, but glad you admitted it. Hope he gets back to at least his 239 career Ave. I’d hate to think Bloom just threw $10M away.

 

I'd that, too.

 

I'm thinking Kike's 2021 (and playoffs) was worth $14M, by itself.

[oldtimer]

I think we can resign Bogey or someone like Swanson, Nimmo in RF and a couple good pen arms and still reset the tax.

 

The hard part is getting a 1/2 starter. To me, he'd have to come via trade, and I'm not sure the top brass thinks this is the time for that. We can extend Devers and not have it count on the 2023 tax line, of we can look to reset in 2024 and extend him, this winter with a hefty signing bonus.

 

I think it is entirely possible we can have a nice team for 2023, reset, and keep the future intact, but I don't see us being a top 4-6 contender without pulling off a big trade or going way over the tax line... maybe both.

 

I agree that we have fallen behind clubs like the Jays, Astros and Yankees and are just barely competitive with the Rays and Orioles. We have a big hill to climb in 2023 and with Sale iffy and possibly losing 5 to free agency, it might just be more than we can expect, especially if the goal is to get below the tax line. If I was Bloom, I would try boost the teams competitiveness in 2023 and splurge in 2024. Guys like Casas, Bellow and Rafaela might give us an infusion of low cost enthusiastic talent that can be built on. I would look to emulate the Astros or Braves by locking up quality players and putting players at every position who play solid defense and can hit. We definitely need pitching and that is where we should spend the bulk of our available money this offseason.

[moonslav59]

Ave is where you start, and then you do the digging Schwarber has the power production, and Kike does not, so if you are just comparing Ave you are right, but once you go deeper into the stats it’s not much of a comparison, and both from the leadoff spot.

 

The thing is, you single out only the worst stat on certain players, over and over.

 

We know you know BA is not the be-all-end-all.

 

With Renfroe, it was RBIs.

With Schwarber, it's his power.

With Kike, it's not defense or "clutch." It's BA and "utility man."

[Old Red]

The thing is, you single out only the worst stat on certain players, over and over.

 

We know you know BA is not the be-all-end-all.

 

With Renfroe, it was RBIs.

With Schwarber, it's his power.

With Kike, it's not defense or "clutch." It's BA and "utility man."

Kike is a nice super sub who can play a number of positions, and play them well, so I don’t think that is downing him in anyway. I just don’t value him as highly as you do. Kike had a great run in last years post season, but I don’t think people look at him like Yaz in 67, or Ortiz many postseason exploits, or even Dave Robert’s stolen base, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[mvp 78]

I think this management team values defense, highly. They stuck with JBJ a long time. I think Rafaela will not be traded, despite him being one of the most sought after prospects we have.

 

If he's highly sought after, he's traded.

[mvp 78]

Kike is a nice super sub who can play a number of positions, and play them well, so I don’t think that is downing him in anyway. I just don’t value him as highly as you do. Kike had a great run in last years post season, but I don’t think people look at him like Yaz in 67, or Ortiz many postseason exploits, or even Dave Robert’s stolen base, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Breaking news: Kiké is not Yaz's triple crown season, or Hall of Famer David Ortiz (happy 9th anniversary to sending Hunter into the bullpen BTW), or a stolen base that helped lead the Sox to their first WS win in 86 years!

[moonslav59]

Kike is a nice super sub who can play a number of positions, and play them well, so I don’t think that is downing him in anyway. I just don’t value him as highly as you do. Kike had a great run in last years post season, but I don’t think people look at him like Yaz in 67, or Ortiz many postseason exploits, or even Dave Robert’s stolen base, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Now, it's "super sub." You make it sound like being a very good defender at many positions is a bad thing.

 

Had he only been good at one, he would not be bounced around and would be a FT one position player.

 

When he's healthy, he plays. That's not what most call a "sub," but please keep dissing as you wish, and yes, it IS downing him... as always.

[Old Red]

Now, it's "super sub." You make it sound like being a very good defender at many positions is a bad thing.

 

Had he only been good at one, he would not be bounced around and would be a FT one position player.

 

When he's healthy, he plays. That's not what most call a "sub," but please keep dissing as you wish, and yes, it IS downing him... as always.

Just cause I don’t have a man crush on Kike like you do you call it dissing him. Like another poster said yesterday Kike was a utility man with the Dodgers, before he came to Boston. Kike was healthy last year when he sucked on day 1, and took him until the end of May to get above 200, and all, before he was hurt. A super sub is not a bad thing, but he’s just not the star that you make him out to be.

[moonslav59]

Breaking news: Kiké is not Yaz's triple crown season, or Hall of Famer David Ortiz (happy 9th anniversary to sending Hunter into the bullpen BTW), or a stolen base that helped lead the Sox to their first WS win in 86 years!

 

Breaking News: Nobody said he was, but his 2021 playoff numbers where spectacular. Had we advanced to the WS or won a ring, maybe his name would be mentioned with Dave Roberts.

[moonslav59]

Just cause I don’t have a man crush on Kike like you do you call it dissing him. Like another poster said yesterday Kike was a utility man with the Dodgers, before he came to Boston. Kike was healthy last year when he sucked on day 1, and took him until the end of May to get above 200, and all, before he was hurt. A super sub is not a bad thing, but he’s just not the star that you make him out to be.

 

I never said he was a star. Not even close.

 

I said he is a great fielder. I said he had the best defensive CF Sox season in my memory as a Sox fan, and then walked that back. I said he had a very good 2nd half to 2021 and a superb playoff run, last year.

 

He is not a sub and hasn't been for many years.

 

He sucked, this year. He's not a super sub. Utility man is closer to the truth, but he's not a sub- super or otherwise.

[Bellhorn04]

Now, it's "super sub." You make it sound like being a very good defender at many positions is a bad thing.

 

Had he only been good at one, he would not be bounced around and would be a FT one position player.

 

When he's healthy, he plays. That's not what most call a "sub," but please keep dissing as you wish, and yes, it IS downing him... as always.

 

In 2019 with the Dodgers, for example, he started 100 games and appeared in 30 others.

 

Most importantly for this discussion, he was 6th on the team in plate appearances. That makes you a regular, ain't no way around it.

[Old Red]

I never said he was a star. Not even close.

 

I said he is a great fielder. I said he had the best defensive CF Sox season in my memory as a Sox fan, and then walked that back. I said he had a very good 2nd half to 2021 and a superb playoff run, last year.

 

He is not a sub and hasn't been for many years.

 

He sucked, this year. He's not a super sub. Utility man is closer to the truth, but he's not a sub- super or otherwise.

 

Ok we’ll go with utility man, but once again a subject that been gone over many times.

[Old Red]

Breaking News: Nobody said he was, but his 2021 playoff numbers where spectacular. Had we advanced to the WS or won a ring, maybe his name would be mentioned with Dave Roberts.

 

Well we didn’t advance, and didn’t win a ring, and Kike outside of you will most likely not be mentioned with Dave Roberts, or the rest that I mentioned earlier, and nor should he, and once again there is nothing wrong with that.