2022-2023 Offseason Thread

[moonslav59]

I don't know. Ben Zobrist got called a Swiss Army Knife.

 

Playing multiple positions doesn't necessarily make you a sub or a backup.

 

Yes, for many it does. Not Kike.

[Nick]

Well he's in the starting line up when it counts so he's a regular.

 

Kike will start so let's not waste anymore time. There's not 9 better position players than him so he's a regular.

 

Move on to stuff that matters.

 

We have catchers, 1B, 2B (when he's not injured), 3B, LF, CF (Kike).

 

We should be talking about RF, SS and DH.

 

Bigger conversation should be Starting Pitching.

 

I have NOT seen big upgrade that Bloom has promised. We wait.

[mvp 78]

I don't know. Ben Zobrist got called a Swiss Army Knife.

 

Playing multiple positions doesn't necessarily make you a sub or a backup.

 

Zobrist also had 599 PA or more 7 out of 8 seasons from 09-16. Kiké has never hit that mark. Zobrist really was a fulltime player that moved around. Kiké was more a backup player that topped out at 462 PA with the Dogers in 2018 before coming to the Sox and becoming a true fulltime player. He was getting the same amount of appearances as a strong side platoon player. I think the Red Sox treat him more like a starter and a Ben Zobrist type than the Dodgers did. Also, the NL game pre-DH allowed for bench players to rack up more appearances over the course of a season.

[mvp 78]

Well he's in the starting line up when it counts so he's a regular.

 

Kike will start so let's not waste anymore time. There's not 9 better position players than him so he's a regular.

 

Move on to stuff that matters.

 

We have catchers, 1B, 2B (when he's not injured), 3B, LF, CF (Kike).

 

We should be talking about RF, SS and DH.

 

Bigger conversation should be Starting Pitching.

 

I have NOT seen big upgrade that Bloom has promised. We wait.

 

The season hasn't ended. He can't sign anyone yet.

[Bellhorn04]

Zobrist also had 599 PA or more 7 out of 8 seasons from 09-16. Kiké has never hit that mark. Zobrist really was a fulltime player that moved around. Kiké was more a backup player that topped out at 462 PA with the Dogers in 2018 before coming to the Sox and becoming a true fulltime player. He was getting the same amount of appearances as a strong side platoon player. I think the Red Sox treat him more like a starter and a Ben Zobrist type than the Dodgers did. Also, the NL game pre-DH allowed for bench players to rack up more appearances over the course of a season.

 

In Kike's last full season with the Dodgers he started 100 games and subbed in 30. He was 6th in games started. I don't see how you can be called a backup player with those numbers. It doesn't compute.

[moonslav59]

In Kike's last full season with the Dodgers he started 100 games and subbed in 30. He was 6th in games started. I don't see how you can be called a backup player with those numbers. It doesn't compute.

 

That season, the Dodgers did seem to share the action among several players and play several players at multiple positions. I don't think doing that changes the fact that some players started and played in way more games than others and should not be called subs.

 

Check this out...

 

PAs at each position:

 

C

228 Barnes

221 Martin

186 W Smith

 

1B

195 Muncy

139 Freese

119 Bellinger

92 Beaty

78 Pederson

9 Kike

 

2B

277 Kike

264 Muncy

78 Lux

59 Taylor

 

3B

521 J Turner

121 Muncy

3 Kike

 

SS

534 Seager

133 Taylor

28 Kike

 

LF

270 Pederson

124 Taylor

107 Beaty

73 Pollock

60 Verdugo

20 Kike

 

CF

257 Pollock

232 Verdugo

86 Bellinger

72 Kike

49 Taylor

 

RF

453 Bellinger

128 Pederson

68 Verdugo

29 Kike

 

I suppose someone could argue the 2019 Dodgers had just 3 starters and 10 subs.

[notin]

I don't know. Ben Zobrist got called a Swiss Army Knife.

 

Playing multiple positions doesn't necessarily make you a sub or a backup.

 

 

In Kike’s case, it’s flat out inaccurate. He spends the overwhelming majority of his time in CF.

 

And for all of this talk about “super-subs” and backup/starter blah blah from the folks who watched Williams and Dom DiMaggio, not one mention of former AL batting champ Billy Goodman?

[mvp 78]

In Kike's last full season with the Dodgers he started 100 games and subbed in 30. He was 6th in games started. I don't see how you can be called a backup player with those numbers. It doesn't compute.

 

Ok, they treated him as a strong side platoon player like Mitch Moreland then. Less than 500 PA per year is a platoon player.

[mvp 78]

In Kike’s case, it’s flat out inaccurate. He spends the overwhelming majority of his time in CF.

 

And for all of this talk about “super-subs” and backup/starter blah blah from the folks who watched Williams and Dom DiMaggio, not one mention of former AL batting champ Billy Goodman?

 

Kiké is NOT a utility guy for the Sox, that's for sure. He's definitely a starter here.

[notin]

That season, the Dodgers did seem to share the action among several players and play several players at multiple positions. I don't think doing that changes the fact that some players started and played in way more games than others and should not be called subs.

 

Check this out...

 

PAs at each position:

 

C

228 Barnes

221 Martin

186 W Smith

 

1B

195 Muncy

139 Freese

119 Bellinger

92 Beaty

78 Pederson

9 Kike

 

2B

277 Kike

264 Muncy

78 Lux

59 Taylor

 

3B

521 J Turner

121 Muncy

3 Kike

 

SS

534 Seager

133 Taylor

28 Kike

 

LF

270 Pederson

124 Taylor

107 Beaty

73 Pollock

60 Verdugo

20 Kike

 

CF

257 Pollock

232 Verdugo

86 Bellinger

72 Kike

49 Taylor

 

RF

453 Bellinger

128 Pederson

68 Verdugo

29 Kike

 

I suppose someone could argue the 2019 Dodgers had just 3 starters and 10 subs.

 

And one of those starters would be Justin Turner, whose previous job was being a utility infielder for the Mets…

[moonslav59]

Ok, they treated him as a strong side platoon player like Mitch Moreland then. Less than 500 PA per year is a platoon player.

 

Except he started 57 games vs RH'd SP'ers and 43 vs LH'd starters.

 

While the ratios of starters vs LH'd pitchers is much higher (43 out of 52) than vs RH's starters (57 out of 110), this doesn't look like a platoon, to me.

 

He started more games vs righties than he did not start.

 

He was a starter in 2019, not a sub. Not a back-up.

 

Other years, maybe and yes.

[moonslav59]

And one of those starters would be Justin Turner, whose previous job was being a utility infielder for the Mets…

 

Another might be Bellinger who has these career games started by position:

321 CF

214 !B

109 RF

37 LF

[Old Red]

Even if Kike led his team in games started, Old Red would still call him a super-sub or some such thing.

 

At the moment I’m calling him a $10M ?? Especially after this last year, and not where I would have started to make the team better next year. I’m more concerned with his bat then how many games he plays.

[moonslav59]

...Especially after this last year...

 

Last year was last year.

 

Forget about it!

[Old Red]

Last year was last year.

 

Forget about it!

 

Deal? I’ll forget about 2022 if you forget 2021.

[Old Red]

Didn't lead to a WS ring so it doesn't matter to me in the least.

 

At least Hendu's HR against the Angel's was actually a made for tv moment.

 

Nobody said anything about it mattered, and what doesn’t matter to you might matter to others, and what is memorable to some might not be memorable to others. The old different strokes for different folks.

[moonslav59]

Deal? I’ll forget about 2022 if you forget 2021.

 

I don't forget history.

[Old Red]

I don't forget history.

 

History? Wow do you over hype things. To me it’s what have you done for me lately when it comes to Kike, and what Kike has done is pretty much suck with the bat.

[Bellhorn04]

History? Wow do you over hype things. To me it’s what have you done for me lately when it comes to Kike, and what Kike has done is pretty much suck with the bat.

 

You are contradicting yourself, though.

 

Yesterday you said "2022 does not mean anything for what happens in 2023". But with Kike you're saying "what have you done for me lately". So obviously what happened in 2022 means plenty to you.

[Old Red]

You are contradicting yourself, though.

 

Yesterday you said "2022 does not mean anything for what happens in 2023". But with Kike you're saying "what have you done for me lately". So obviously what happened in 2022 means plenty to you.

 

Only in discussions with Moon. We have a history on Kike discussions.

[mvp 78]

Another might be Bellinger who has these career games started by position:

321 CF

214 !B

109 RF

37 LF

 

Bellinger should be a backup.

[moonslav59]

History? Wow do you over hype things. To me it’s what have you done for me lately when it comes to Kike, and what Kike has done is pretty much suck with the bat.

 

Yes, yes, yes, we know what history means to you with only certain players.

 

Broken record.

[moonslav59]

Only in discussions with Moon. We have a history on Kike discussions.

 

LOL. You only contradict yourself in discussions with me?

 

Classic!

[notin]

Bellinger should be a backup.

 

Maybe the Sox can sign him to back up Haniger in RF?

 

Of course most years, backing up Haniger = starting…

[Old Red]

Yes, yes, yes, we know what history means to you with only certain players.

 

Broken record.

 

I look at it this way with Kike. On the totem pole of importance to next years success, or not Kike is way down towards the bottom of that totem pole.

[moonslav59]

Bellinger should be a backup.

 

Now, yes.

[Old Red]

LOL. You only contradict yourself in discussions with me?

 

Classic!

 

No! I only meant we have gone back, and forth many times on Kike, and no one has changed their minds on anything.

[mvp 78]

Except he started 57 games vs RH'd SP'ers and 43 vs LH'd starters.

 

While the ratios of starters vs LH'd pitchers is much higher (43 out of 52) than vs RH's starters (57 out of 110), this doesn't look like a platoon, to me.

 

He started more games vs righties than he did not start.

 

He was a starter in 2019, not a sub. Not a back-up.

 

Other years, maybe and yes.

 

When you go to the store to buy a dozen eggs, do you go into the Express Lane if it says 10 items or less?

 

When I say they treated like a platoon player, go look at the amount of PA's a guy like Mitch Moreland had. He was on the strong side of a platoon. He was not getting Ben Zobrist like PA's. I didn't literally mean that they platooned him based on handedness.

[mvp 78]

No! I only meant we have gone back, and forth many times on Kike, and no one has changed their minds on anything.

 

You two are the North going and South going Zax incarnate. https://seuss.fandom.com/wiki/The_Zax

[moonslav59]

No! I only meant we have gone back, and forth many times on Kike, and no one has changed their minds on anything.

 

I like the literal answer better.