2022-2023 Offseason Thread

[moonslav59]

In 2019 with the Dodgers, for example, he started 100 games and appeared in 30 others.

 

Most importantly for this discussion, he was 6th on the team in plate appearances. That makes you a regular, ain't no way around it.

 

Even if you go by games started, which might be a truer measure of a sub vs FT'er, he rarely finished below 7th on his teams. (Don't count the pitcher or catcher for obvious reasons.) Baseball is not like the NBA, where a team's 6th man often plays way more minutes than a starter, but is called a sub.

 

Games Started

2018

135 Bellinger

128 Taylor

119 Kemp

111 Grandal

107 Puig

104 Kike 6th

102 Muncy

94 Turner

 

2019

151 Bellinger

130 Muncy

125 Seager

122 Turner

109 Pederson

100 Kike 6th

90 Taylor

82 Verdugo

 

2020 (COVID)

#7 Turner 42

#8 Pederson 38

#9 Smith 34

#10 Kike 32

 

2021

155 Devers

148 JD

143 Bogey

140 Renfroe

137 Verdugo

130 Kike 6th

122 Vaz

115 Dalbec

 

Playoffs:

2017: Kike was 8th in LAD games played with 13 (1.172 OPS)

2018: 7th playoff games played with 15 (.486 OPS)

2019: 12th in gams played (3 of 5) w 1.500 OPS

2020: 8th (17 out of 18 gms) .755 OPS

2021: 1st in SOX playoff games played (11 of 11) 1.260 OPS

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

In 2019 with the Dodgers, for example, he started 100 games and appeared in 30 others.

 

Most importantly for this discussion, he was 6th on the team in plate appearances. That makes you a regular, ain't no way around it.

OK, we’ll go with backup like MVP said yesterday before he got to Boston. Doesn’t change his importance, or lack of after his performance in 2022 no matter what he did in 2021.

[moonslav59]

Ok we’ll go with utility man, but once again a subject that been gone over many times.

 

NO, "WE" won't. You and a few others can, if you want.

[moonslav59]

Well we didn’t advance, and didn’t win a ring, and Kike outside of you will most likely not be mentioned with Dave Roberts, or the rest that I mentioned earlier, and nor should he, and once again there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Let's never mention Fisk's HR, Carb's HR and countless other great Sox moments that did not lead to a ring.

[Old Red]

Let's never mention Fisk's HR, Carb's HR and countless other great Sox moments that did not lead to a ring.

 

See you are trying to make Kike more than he was. Carb’s, and Fisk HR we’re in the WS against the Big Red Machine, and before the Red Sox had won a ring in many years.As much as you try Kike just doesn’t match up.

[Old Red]

NO, "WE" won't. You and a few others can, if you want.

 

How about backup that was also mentioned yesterday?

[Old Red]

Let's never mention Fisk's HR, Carb's HR and countless other great Sox moments that did not lead to a ring.

 

Even when I think of last year’s postseason I think of Bogey throwing Judge out at the plate, and Vaz hitting the BIG HR against the Rays for a walkoff more than anything.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

See you are trying to make Kike more than he was. Carb’s, and Fisk HR we’re in the WS against the Big Red Machine, and before the Red Sox had won a ring in many years.As much as you try Kike just doesn’t match up.

 

No, I'm not trying to do that.

 

You just think I am.

[moonslav59]

How about backup that was also mentioned yesterday?

 

Not by "us" or "we."

 

You and a few others feel as you do, but don't go saying "We agree..." to me.

[Old Red]

No, I'm not trying to do that.

 

You just think I am.

 

It’s fine to see things how you want to see them.

[moonslav59]

Even when I think of last year’s postseason I think of Bogey throwing Judge out at the plate, and Vaz hitting the BIG HR against the Rays for a walkoff more than anything.

 

Of course, that's what you choose to remember. I remember those, too.

 

I also remember the Sox being down 1 game to none and losing 5-2 to the Rays in game 2. I remember Kike going 5 for 6 with the game tying HR, 3 runs & 3 RBI, including a later a double to set up Devers HR.

 

I also remember him going 3 for 6 in game 3, with 2 RBI, including the game tying one, and later a HR to put us up 4-2. Without that, Vaz nevers get up.

 

Maybe you forgot the walk of sac fly by Kike to send us to the ALCS, but I didn't.

 

Maybe you forgot him going 4 for 5 in game 1 vs HOU w 2 R and 2 RBI, including another game tying HR and a second HR in the 9th to bring us to within one run.

 

2 for 4 the next game with another HR is the win.

 

2 for 4 in the game 3 win.

 

He got 1 of the team's 5 hits in the game 4 loss.

 

He went hitless in the 3 hit loss to HOU in game 5. That memory must be burned in your brain, and his 1 of the team's 2 hits in the final game, too.

 

No, this does not compare to Fisk, or Papi, or many other great WS moments, but it does need to be forgotten, either.

 

It's also not saying he's a star or super star. Saying he is not a sub does not mean I think he's a stud.

 

The guy is a great defender.

He's a decent hitter.

He did very well, when it counted most, last year- something that seems to matter to you in other cases.

 

Yes, he wasn't the only guy bringing us close to making the WS, but it's not meaningless, just because the rest of the team didn't do what was needed.

 

[moonslav59]

It’s fine to see things how you want to see them.

 

I learn something new, everyday.

 

[Old Red]

Of course, that's what you choose to remember. I remember those, too.

 

I also remember the Sox being down 1 game to none and losing 5-2 to the Rays in game 2. I remember Kike going 5 for 6 with the game tying HR, 3 runs & 3 RBI, including a later a double to set up Devers HR.

 

I also remember him going 3 for 6 in game 3, with 2 RBI, including the game tying one, and later a HR to put us up 4-2. Without that, Vaz nevers get up.

 

Maybe you forgot the walk of sac fly by Kike to send us to the ALCS, but I didn't.

 

Maybe you forgot him going 4 for 5 in game 1 vs HOU w 2 R and 2 RBI, including another game tying HR and a second HR in the 9th to bring us to within one run.

 

2 for 4 the next game with another HR is the win.

 

2 for 4 in the game 3 win.

 

He got 1 of the team's 5 hits in the game 4 loss.

 

He went hitless in the 3 hit loss to HOU in game 5. That memory must be burned in your brain, and his 1 of the team's 2 hits in the final game, too.

 

No, this does not compare to Fisk, or Papi, or many other great WS moments, but it does need to be forgotten, either.

 

It's also not saying he's a star or super star. Saying he is not a sub does not mean I think he's a stud.

 

The guy is a great defender.

He's a decent hitter.

He did very well, when it counted most, last year- something that seems to matter to you in other cases.

 

Yes, he wasn't the only guy bringing us close to making the WS, but it's not meaningless, just because the rest of the team didn't do what was needed.

 

Honestly I don’t remember any of the specifics that you mentioned outside of Kike having a hot streak. The two plays I mentioned by Bogey, and Vaz were more memorable to me.

[moonslav59]

Honestly I don’t remember any of the specifics that you mentioned outside of Kike having a hot streak. The two plays I mentioned by Bogey, and Vaz were more memorable to me.

 

Ironically, the one Kike play I remember most was the dropped fly ball.

 

LOL.

 

I remember JD's granny in game 2 that put us up 4-0, early.

 

I remember the bats dying, all at once.

 

I didn't remember the two plays you mentioned, until you mentioned them.

[mvp 78]

See you are trying to make Kike more than he was. Carb’s, and Fisk HR we’re in the WS against the Big Red Machine, and before the Red Sox had won a ring in many years.As much as you try Kike just doesn’t match up.

 

Nobody gives two shits about Bernie Carbo anymore old man...

[moonslav59]

Nobody gives two shits about Bernie Carbo anymore old man...

 

Don't cancel Bernie!

[Old Red]

Nobody gives two shits about Bernie Carbo anymore old man...

 

Wow! I still care about Jose Tartabull throwing out Ken Berry at the plate to ex Yankee Elston Howard.

[notin]

Kike is excellent on D no matter where you put him. No argument there.

 

Kike is an amazing defensive player who could be in the argument for a Gold Glove at the three most difficult (non-catcher) positions - 2b, SS and CF. That alone makes him a worthwhile starter on any team.

 

He’s not a good leadoff hitter. If you want to make that argument, I will adamantly agree…

[moonslav59]

Kike is an amazing defensive player who could be in the argument for a Gold Glove at the three most difficult (non-catcher) positions - 2b, SS and CF. That alone makes him a worthwhile starter on any team.

 

He’s not a good leadoff hitter. If you want to make that argument, I will adamantly agree…

 

Yes, and being an amazing defender at 3 positions does not make him a sub due to not playing 140+ games at one position, only.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, and being an amazing defender at 3 positions does not make him a sub due to not playing 140+ games at one position, only.

 

Even if Kike led his team in games started, Old Red would still call him a super-sub or some such thing.

[moonslav59]

Even if Kike led his team in games started, Old Red would still call him a super-sub or some such thing.

 

The worst part of calling him a "back-up," "sub" or "utilityman" is that he keeps following that up with some statement about him not "downing" Kike, when it is so obvious.

 

He has a 13.5 bWAR over his last 2400 PAs (690 games), which comes to about a 3.3 bWAR over 162 games and 3.4 over 600 PAs

 

While Kike is no stud, superstar or even a "star" player, he's damn good. He'd be a FT starter on just about every team in MLB.

[mvp 78]

Don't cancel Bernie!

 

I'm going to go home tonight and put my 1976 Topps Carbo in my son's bike spokes and then give it to the new puppy.

[mvp 78]

Wow! I still care about Jose Tartabull throwing out Ken Berry at the plate to ex Yankee Elston Howard.

 

Didn't lead to a WS ring so it doesn't matter to me in the least.

 

At least Hendu's HR against the Angel's was actually a made for tv moment.

[mvp 78]

Kike is an amazing defensive player who could be in the argument for a Gold Glove at the three most difficult (non-catcher) positions - 2b, SS and CF. That alone makes him a worthwhile starter on any team.

 

He’s not a good leadoff hitter. If you want to make that argument, I will adamantly agree…

 

Oh yeah?!?!?

 

2021:

2b -5 OAA

 

2022:

2b -1 OAA

 

[mvp 78]

Even if Kike led his team in games started, Old Red would still call him a super-sub or some such thing.

 

Being super is a bad connotation now?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Don't cancel Bernie!

 

I'm pretty sure Bernie wasn't invited to Zimmer's funeral.

[Bellhorn04]

Being super is a bad connotation now?

 

No, but using "super-sub" for a starter is bad terminology.

[mvp 78]

No, but using "super-sub" for a starter is bad terminology.

 

What's a better term for that kind of player then?

[moonslav59]

What's a better term for that kind of player then?

 

"Super starter?"

 

"Multipositional starter?"

 

"Flex starter?"

 

Or just "full timer."

 

He starts and plays in more games than others labelled "FT'ers" or "starters."

 

[Bellhorn04]

What's a better term for that kind of player then?

 

I don't know. Ben Zobrist got called a Swiss Army Knife.

 

Playing multiple positions doesn't necessarily make you a sub or a backup.