Vazquez traded to Houston

[mvp 78]

Even if it is a weak class, free agency is but one way to add talent.

 

There’s always a few teams willing to deal a player they signed but now regret doing so for one reason or another…

 

As Joon said yesterday, Bloom's trades so far have been 4 nickles for a quarter. He hasn't obtained top level talent through trades yet.

[Elktonnick]

as joon said yesterday, bloom's trades so far have been 4 nickles for a quarter. He hasn't obtained top level talent through trades yet.

lol 😆

[dgalehouse]

There is obviously some unrest in the clubhouse. There is no getting away from that. I think the annual trade deadline stuff is very stressful for the players. And apparently there were issues even prior to that. But it is nothing compared to the old Yankees. The George , Billy and Reggie show. As a Sox fan , that was fun to watch.

[Old Red]

I don't have time to take it all in. And a lot of it is, and always has been, speculation/hearsay/gossip that is designed to stir people up and generate revenue. It's an age-old game.

 

I'm not saying they're all full of it, either. But if it isn't an actual quote, I see no reason to buy it as fact.

 

It’s always amused me on here when ever I’ve mentioned any names like Shaugnessy, or Tony Mass, or Lou Meroni, or talk shows the reaction has always been consider the source. I always consider the source rather on here, or out in the vast land of Red Sox Nation. I’ll take any kind of information I can get, because I like to see what everyone thinks, but I always form my own opinion, but I never think one is better than the other, or not as good as some. To me the more, and bigger information I can get the better.

[Elktonnick]

It’s always amused me on here when ever I’ve mentioned any names like Shaugnessy, or Tony Mass, or Lou Meroni, or talk shows the reaction has always been consider the source. I always consider the source rather on here, or out in the vast land of Red Sox Nation. I’ll take any kind of information I can get, because I like to see what everyone thinks, but I always form my own opinion, but I never think one is better than the other, or not as good as some. To me the more, and bigger information I can get the better.

True

IMHO This site tends to be more interested in numbers. .The opinions of sportswriters and former ballplayers tends to be devalued.

[mvp 78]

It’s always amused me on here when ever I’ve mentioned any names like Shaugnessy, or Tony Mass, or Lou Meroni, or talk shows the reaction has always been consider the source. I always consider the source rather on here, or out in the vast land of Red Sox Nation. I’ll take any kind of information I can get, because I like to see what everyone thinks, but I always form my own opinion, but I never think one is better than the other, or not as good as some. To me the more, and bigger information I can get the better.

 

The only source I discount is Shaughnessy. Yuck.

 

I don't like Merloni, but I'll give him a little more credit than CHB.

[Old Red]

A few of us think the reason they traded Vaz (besides his expiring contract) was the CERA thing, and the new guy McGuire has good CERA numbers.

 

I'm not surprised that the deadline moves looked weird. I'm guessing the front office didn't want to throw away the slim chance of making the playoffs for the sake of fan interest, but they didn't want to invest much in it, either.

So after all these years that Vaz has been on the team, and all the games he has caught with two months to go on his contract, and now he was traded for something analytics? A starting catcher was traded for a backup catcher. The only place I have heard that speculation is on here, and nothing official from anyone official. Interesting take, but I think there was more to it than that.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It’s always amused me on here when ever I’ve mentioned any names like Shaugnessy, or Tony Mass, or Lou Meroni, or talk shows the reaction has always been consider the source. I always consider the source rather on here, or out in the vast land of Red Sox Nation. I’ll take any kind of information I can get, because I like to see what everyone thinks, but I always form my own opinion, but I never think one is better than the other, or not as good as some. To me the more, and bigger information I can get the better.

 

I agree, except I admit I tend to trust sources closest to the actual vibe in the dugout and clubhouse. This includes beat reporters and ex-players maybe on talk shows, but excludes anyone directly employed by the organization, like announcers.

 

I do not, however, distrust writers for the Boston Globe, even if it is owned by John Henry, because no one consistently hammers the Red Sox more than Dan Shaughnessey. And I give Henry credit for allowing his biggest critic to always speak his mind.

[dgalehouse]

There is a human element involved that advanced analytics does not factor in . In that sense , trading Vazquez was a mistake.

[Old Red]

There is a human element involved that advanced analytics does not factor in . In that sense , trading Vazquez was a mistake.

 

Agree. Like Jim Rice said that analytics never played baseball.

[Bellhorn04]

There is a human element involved that advanced analytics does not factor in . In that sense , trading Vazquez was a mistake.

 

It's a little early to be sure.

[vjcsmoke]

There is a human element involved that advanced analytics does not factor in . In that sense , trading Vazquez was a mistake.

 

If you want to talk about human element, it sounds like Vazquez wasn't even given a courtesy call to inform him he was being traded.

 

He only found out about it when the press questioned him. Awkward! What a douche way to handle it by Chaim Bloom.

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/08/02/christian-vazquez-on-red-sox-trading-him-to-astros-its-a-business

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Agree. Like Jim Rice said that analytics never played baseball.

 

I believe Rice used the word analytics as a euphemism for nerds.

[Old Red]

I believe Rice used the word analytics as a euphemism for nerds.

 

Aren’t they one of the same?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Aren’t they one of the same?

 

Ah, yeah. That's why I posted the word 'euphemism.'

[Old Red]

Ah, yeah. That's why I posted the word 'euphemism.'

 

Like MF says that the Nerds, and clones run the Red Sox.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Btw, for the couple of Yankem fans on this forum the Yankem game will be televised on Amazon Prime tonight.

[mvp 78]

If you want to talk about human element, it sounds like Vazquez wasn't even given a courtesy call to inform him he was being traded.

 

He only found out about it when the press questioned him. Awkward! What a douche way to handle it by Chaim Bloom.

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/08/02/christian-vazquez-on-red-sox-trading-him-to-astros-its-a-business

 

Completely untrue.

[mvp 78]

There is a human element involved that advanced analytics does not factor in . In that sense , trading Vazquez was a mistake.

 

If this team is going to suck down the stretch, they 100% should have traded Vaz.

[oldtimer]

If this team is going to suck down the stretch, they 100% should have traded Vaz.

 

Unless he was viewed as a foundational piece, like Bogey and Devers. And then, if not and they still believed they should sell, they also should have traded JDM and Eovaldi.

[moonslav59]

Unless he was viewed as a foundational piece, like Bogey and Devers. And then, if not and they still believed they should sell, they also should have traded JDM and Eovaldi.

 

No doubt. That was my position about a month ago.

 

The only way we should not have traded any of the big 3, is if they invoked their no-trade clause (Bogey) or the return offered was less than the value of a comp pick.

 

Other considerations, include getting under the tax line to better position ourselves in 2023 and beyond.

[notin]

Completely untrue.

 

If Vazquez found out during the press conference, that’s on him. MLBTR was running the story 2 hours earlier.

 

And it is true players check out that site. They’ve run stories about players who didn’t know they’d been traded until they saw it on MLBTR. So even if Vaz never checked the site out, I find it hard to believe that he didn’t have at least one teammate who did…

[Elktonnick]

If Vazquez found out during the press conference, that’s on him. MLBTR was running the story 2 hours earlier.

 

And it is true players check out that site. They’ve run stories about players who didn’t know they’d been traded until they saw it on MLBTR. So even if Vaz never checked the site out, I find it hard to believe that he didn’t have at least one teammate who did…

Finding out you have been traded by checking a website is cold. High class organizations have the manager or GM tell the player.

The players should be pissed at Bloom if someone senior in the organization had not told Vaz directly.

[notin]

Finding out you have been traded by checking a website is cold. High class organizations have the manager or GM tell the player.

The players should be pissed at Bloom if someone senior in the organization had not told Vaz directly.

 

And maybe they did. All I’m saying is no way he found out at a press conference.

 

And per MLBTR, there are a few players who did learn they were dealt via that page. None of the stories involved the Red Sox. Most of them weren’t stars, or even starters…

[JDavis76]

And maybe they did. All I’m saying is no way he found out at a press conference.

 

And per MLBTR, there are a few players who did learn they were dealt via that page. None of the stories involved the Red Sox. Most of them weren’t stars, or even starters…

 

The sox can spin it however they like, the look on vaz's face told the real story....

[moonslav59]

Here is the final report on Vaz, as compared to other Sox catchers and how well our pitchers did with him or others catching them.

 

Call it CERA. Call it staff-handling. Call it whatever you want, but almost all of these numbers point in one direction: other catchers got more from our pitchers than Vaz did. This doesn't mean the others were better, overall, or that Vaz did not deserve to start or that he sucked as a catcher. It just shows one aspect of a catchers job and how Vaz compares to other on the Sox.

 

I listed all Sox catchers who had sample sizes larger than 40 IP. One can argue 40-80 or 100 IP sample sizes are too small, and it's a good point, but when they almost all point in the same direction, and the samples with 100+ IP each all show the same thing, I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

Total IP as a Sox Pitcher

CERA Pitcher (IP with catcher)

 

6 Highest IP Starting Pitchers:

 

964 Porcello

3.95 Hanigan (55)

4.19 Leon (576)

4.93 Swihart (112)

4.96 Vaz (211)

5.38 Holaday (82)

 

857 ERod

3.78 Hanigan (50)

4.05 Leon (118)

4.18 Vaz (614)

4.44 Swihart (75)

 

588 Price

2.96 Leon (204)

4.27 Vaz (360)

 

568 Sale

2.51 AJ Pier (226)

2.79 Leon (436)

4.08 Vaz (132)

 

446 Eovaldi

3.40 Plawecki (177)

4.53 Leon (44)

4.64 Vaz (176)

 

 

423 Buccholz

2.83 VMart (241)

3.01 Leon (155)

3.95 Salty (207)

4.44 Vaz (118)

5.63 AJ Pier. (62)

 

Summary:

Vaz 0.80 to 1.00 higher than Leon & Hanigan with Porcello (Significantly higher)

Vaz 0.40 to 0.15 higher than Leon & Hanigan with ERod (Very close)

Vaz 1.30 higher than Leon with Price (Way higher)

Vaz 1.30 to 1.50 higher than Leon & AJ P with Sale(Way higher)

Vaz 0.10 higher than Leon, but 1.25 higher than Plawecki with Eovaldi(Higher)

Vaz 0.50 to 1.60 higher than Leon, Salty & VMart with Buchholz(Much higher)

All 6 did better with others- 4 by a lot, 1 by kinda a lot and 1 close (ERod)

 

The next tier Starters (some as SP & RP):

 

359 Kelly

3.23 Vaz (98)

4.48 Swi (74)

4.63 Leon (56)

4.83 Hanigan (91)

 

334 Wright

2.94 Hanigan (95)

3.49 Vaz (95)

4.06 Swihart (71)

5.83 Leon (59)

 

316 Pomeranz

3.32 Holaday (41)

3.92 Vaz (198)

6.02 Leon (46)

 

 

295 Pivetta

3.41 Plawecki (63)

4.55 Vaz (221)

 

Summary:'

Vaz much better with Kelly

Vaz about in the middle with Wright & Pom

Vaz worse with Pivetta

Looks about dead even, here

 

Relief Pitchers:

 

412 Barnes

3.83 Leon (99)

3.96 Vaz (216)

4.50 Swi (42)

 

266 Workman

3.04 Vaz (136)

3.83 Leon (54)

4.03 AJ Pier, (45)

 

258 Hembree

3.42 Leon (92)

4.26 Vaz (106)

 

184 Kimbrel

1.94 Leon (79)

1.95 Vaz (88)

 

Summary:

Looks about even here, too.

 

Overall, Vaz did about the same with the second tier SP'ers and the top RP'ers, but much worse with the top 6 SP'ers from 2014-2022.

 

Take it for what it is.

 

I still liked Vaz as a catcher, for us, but I think these numbers take away some of the shine.

[Maxbialystock]

Here is the final report on Vaz, as compared to other Sox catchers and how well our pitchers did with him or others catching them.

 

Call it CERA. Call it staff-handling. Call it whatever you want, but almost all of these numbers point in one direction: other catchers got more from our pitchers than Vaz did. This doesn't mean the others were better, overall, or that Vaz did not deserve to start or that he sucked as a catcher. It just shows one aspect of a catchers job and how Vaz compares to other on the Sox.

 

I listed all Sox catchers who had sample sizes larger than 40 IP. One can argue 40-80 or 100 IP sample sizes are too small, and it's a good point, but when they almost all point in the same direction, and the samples with 100+ IP each all show the same thing, I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

Total IP as a Sox Pitcher

CERA Pitcher (IP with catcher)

 

6 Highest IP Starting Pitchers:

 

964 Porcello

3.95 Hanigan (55)

4.19 Leon (576)

4.93 Swihart (112)

4.96 Vaz (211)

5.38 Holaday (82)

 

857 ERod

3.78 Hanigan (50)

4.05 Leon (118)

4.18 Vaz (614)

4.44 Swihart (75)

 

588 Price

2.96 Leon (204)

4.27 Vaz (360)

 

568 Sale

2.51 AJ Pier (226)

2.79 Leon (436)

4.08 Vaz (132)

 

446 Eovaldi

3.40 Plawecki (177)

4.53 Leon (44)

4.64 Vaz (176)

 

 

423 Buccholz

2.83 VMart (241)

3.01 Leon (155)

3.95 Salty (207)

4.44 Vaz (118)

5.63 AJ Pier. (62)

 

Summary:

Vaz 0.80 to 1.00 higher than Leon & Hanigan with Porcello (Significantly higher)

Vaz 0.40 to 0.15 higher than Leon & Hanigan with ERod (Very close)

Vaz 1.30 higher than Leon with Price (Way higher)

Vaz 1.30 to 1.50 higher than Leon & AJ P with Sale(Way higher)

Vaz 0.10 higher than Leon, but 1.25 higher than Plawecki with Eovaldi(Higher)

Vaz 0.50 to 1.60 higher than Leon, Salty & VMart with Buchholz(Much higher)

All 6 did better with others- 4 by a lot, 1 by kinda a lot and 1 close (ERod)

 

The next tier Starters (some as SP & RP):

 

359 Kelly

3.23 Vaz (98)

4.48 Swi (74)

4.63 Leon (56)

4.83 Hanigan (91)

 

334 Wright

2.94 Hanigan (95)

3.49 Vaz (95)

4.06 Swihart (71)

5.83 Leon (59)

 

316 Pomeranz

3.32 Holaday (41)

3.92 Vaz (198)

6.02 Leon (46)

 

 

295 Pivetta

3.41 Plawecki (63)

4.55 Vaz (221)

 

Summary:'

Vaz much better with Kelly

Vaz about in the middle with Wright & Pom

Vaz worse with Pivetta

Looks about dead even, here

 

Relief Pitchers:

 

412 Barnes

3.83 Leon (99)

3.96 Vaz (216)

4.50 Swi (42)

 

266 Workman

3.04 Vaz (136)

3.83 Leon (54)

4.03 AJ Pier, (45)

 

258 Hembree

3.42 Leon (92)

4.26 Vaz (106)

 

184 Kimbrel

1.94 Leon (79)

1.95 Vaz (88)

 

Summary:

Looks about even here, too.

 

Overall, Vaz did about the same with the second tier SP'ers and the top RP'ers, but much worse with the top 6 SP'ers from 2014-2022.

 

Take it for what it is.

 

I still liked Vaz as a catcher, for us, but I think these numbers take away some of the shine.

 

Completely unfair to Vaz, who is beloved on Talksox, a clubhouse leader, a clutch hitter, and one of the smartest baserunning catchers ever.

 

The Astros clubhouse was jubilant when they found out Vaz was joining them. And since then they have played just marvelous baseball (the 5-5 record does not tell the real story).

 

Losing Vazquez pretty much finishes the Red Sox for this season and probably a couple more.

[moonslav59]

Completely unfair to Vaz, who is beloved on Talksox, a clubhouse leader, a clutch hitter, and one of the smartest baserunning catchers ever.

 

The Astros clubhouse was jubilant when they found out Vaz was joining them. And since then they have played just marvelous baseball (the 5-5 record does not tell the real story).

 

Losing Vazquez pretty much finishes the Red Sox for this season and probably a couple more.

 

...and all we got was some guy who made 2 outs in 6 PAs and failed to hit an HR in 4 of the 6 PAs, tonight, plus some other guy with an OPS b elow .900.

[Old Red]

Completely unfair to Vaz, who is beloved on Talksox, a clubhouse leader, a clutch hitter, and one of the smartest baserunning catchers ever.

 

The Astros clubhouse was jubilant when they found out Vaz was joining them. And since then they have played just marvelous baseball (the 5-5 record does not tell the real story).

 

Losing Vazquez pretty much finishes the Red Sox for this season and probably a couple more.

 

Have you confirmed the Red Sox record without Vaz yet? It’s 4-6, and alternating 2 backup catchers is not sound baseball strategy. Who do you think the guys in the Red Sox clubhouse would rather have Vaz, or Pee Wee Herman?

Edited August 13, 2022 by Old Red

[notin]

Have you confirmed the Red Sox record without Vaz yet? It’s 4-6, and alternating 2 backup catchers is not sound baseball strategy. Who do you think the guys in the Red Sox clubhouse would rather have Vaz, or Pee Wee Herman?

 

Their record before the Vazquez trade wasn’t exactly stellar either…