A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[Old Red]

But see how you're putting down two good moves like Mayer and Devers as if Bloom gets no credit for them?

 

It's like when people who don't like Dombrowski say he shouldn't get any credit just for spending a pile of money on guys like Price and JDM.

 

It's easy to do. If you like the guy, you find things to credit him for and ignore things he should be blamed for. And vice versa.

 

I don’t give Bloom any credit for signing Raffy, and Mayer. I believe Raffy was signed, because he was the last of the big 3 standing, and ended up costing more if he would have been signed earlier. Mayer was passed over by 3 other teams, and Bloom just took the so called BPA.

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t give Bloom any credit for signing Raffy, and Mayer. I believe Raffy was signed, because he was the last of the big 3 standing, and ended up costing more if he would have been signed earlier. Mayer was passed over by 3 other teams, and Bloom just took the so called BPA.

 

Like I was saying.

[Old Red]

Like I was saying.

 

Do you think I’m wrong in thinking that?

[notin]

Dombrowski failed to sign Betts to an extension. That's a fact too. You just don't like that one as much, for obvious reasons.

 

One might also argue his 3year $60mill extension of Bogaerts wasn’t all that great, either…

[Bellhorn04]

Do you think I’m wrong in thinking that?

 

I don't think it's as simple as you're making it sound. For example, the Devers negotiations could easily have gotten screwed up. There was nothing stopping him from waiting another year to be a free agent.

 

Before the extension people who were down on the team said he was gone. After the extension many of those people changed their tune to it only happened because of all the pressure blah blah blah. Funny how that works.

[Bellhorn04]

One might also argue his 3year $60mill extension of Bogaerts wasn’t all that great, either…

 

People can argue whatever they want. I thought that extension was pretty good.

[notin]

I don’t give Bloom any credit for signing Raffy, and Mayer. I believe Raffy was signed, because he was the last of the big 3 standing, and ended up costing more if he would have been signed earlier. Mayer was passed over by 3 other teams, and Bloom just took the so called BPA.

 

Groome was the best player in the 2016 draft and was passed over by 11 teams and I gave Dombrowski credit for drafting him…

[notin]

People can argue whatever they want. I thought that extension was pretty good.

 

But why is 3 years $60mill good but 4 years $90mill insulting?

 

Dombrowski had the chance to lock up Betts and Bogaerts, but all he really got us was an injured Chris Sale…

[moonslav59]

Somehow stating facts is now viewed as spin.

 

Here is what DD had handed to him (by fWAR/years and cost)

 

30.3/4 Betts pre-arb + arb

17.4/4 Bogey pre-arb + arb

13.3/4 JBJ pre-arb + arb

8.9/4 Beni pre-arb + arb

8.3/3 Devers pre-arb + arb

4.5/1 Ortiz $16M

7.0/4 Vaz pre-arb + arb

2.9/4 Pedey $55M

2.9/3 Leon.

2.6/4 Holt

2.5/3 HRam $66M

-0.9/4 Pablo $78M

 

Acquired:

9.2/2 JD $44M

2.2/3 Moreland $19M

0.5/2 CYoung $13M

0.6/1.3 Pearce $8M

-0.7/1.3 Nunez

(0.2 Kinsler, -0.5 A Hill)

 

Pitching:

11.4/4 Porcello $88M

9.0/4 ERod pre-arb + arb

3.9/4 Barnes pre-arb + arb

1.7/3 Kelly 3 arb years

2.3/3 Wright pre-arb + arb

2.1/ Workman pre-arb + arb

0.6/1 Uehara $9M

1.2/2 Walden pre-arb + arb

1.0/2 RRoss 2 arbs

 

Added:

17.4/3 Sale $39M

10.6/4 Price $121M

5.8/3 Kimbrel $38M

3.2/3 Pomeranz $14M

1.4/.3 Fister

1.2/1.3 Eovaldi $20M

1.0/0.3 RHill

1.0/2 Brasier

0.3/1 CSmith

0.0/ 0.3 AReed

-0.1/0.3 Cashner

-0.4/ Thornburg

-0.4/ J Smith

-0.8 Ogando

 

Carry-overs to Bloom

12.0/3 Bogey $60M

9.9/3 Devers 3 arbs

3.4/3 Vaz $20M

2.8/3 JD $66M

1.2/3 Dalbec pre-arb + arbs

0.0/0 Betts (traded)

-0.4/1 Beni (traded)

 

1.4 JBJ (carry over & added)

 

Added

5.1/3 Verdugo 3 arbs

4.4/2 Kike $14M

2.4/1 Story $23M

2.0/1 Renfroe $3M

1.3/1 Refsnyder

1.3/0.3 McGuire

1.2/0.3 Schwarber

1.1/3 Arroyo

0.8/0.3 Iggy

0.3/3 Plawecki

0.3/1 Wong

-0.3/1 Marwin $3M

-1.0/2 Cordero

 

Pitching:

7.6/3 Nate $51M

3.9/2 ERod $17M

3.4/3 Houck

1.3/3 Barnes

1.1/1 Bello

1.0/3 Brasier

1.0/3 Sale $78M

0.0/0.6 Workman

-0.5/3 DHern

 

Added:

3.9/2 Pivetta

3.0/2 Whitlock

1.8/1 Schreiber

1.8/1 RHill

1.5/1 Wacha

1.1/2 Perez

1.0/1 Richards

0.6/1 Ottavino

0.3/1 Strahm

0.0/2 Win

-0.1/1 Andriese

-0.2/2 Sawamura

-0.2/2 Brice

-0.2/1+ Robles

-0.3/2 Weber

-0.3/2 Seabold

-0.5/1 Diekman (traded)

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

But why is 3 years $60mill good but 4 years $90mill insulting?

 

It's insulting when you make that offer at the same time you're signing a slightly lesser player to 6 years $140 mill, for one thing.

 

For another, Bogaerts ended up getting more than 3 times $90 mill. (Not that it was anything but an absurd amount that San Diego paid.)

[Old Red]

I don't think it's as simple as you're making it sound. For example, the Devers negotiations could easily have gotten screwed up. There was nothing stopping him from waiting another year to be a free agent.

 

Before the extension people who were down on the team said he was gone. After the extension many of those people changed their tune to it only happened because of all the pressure blah blah blah. Funny how that works.

 

I was really surprised that Raffy signed after Mookie, and Bogey left, and that he didn’t take it to FA, but I haven’t changed any tune. I’m glad he was signed, but now let’s see if they can put players around him good enough to make a difference.

[Old Red]

But why is 3 years $60mill good but 4 years $90mill insulting?

 

Dombrowski had the chance to lock up Betts and Bogaerts, but all he really got us was an injured Chris Sale…

You still don’t get it. Wow! You also thought Bogey should have countered that 1/yr $30M ext. once again Wow!

[Old Red]

It's insulting when you make that offer at the same time you're signing a slightly lesser player to 6 years $140 mill, for one thing.

 

For another, Bogaerts ended up getting more than 3 times $90 mill. (Not that it was anything but an absurd amount that San Diego paid.)

 

A slightly lesser player who was not homegrown, and hadn’t help win 2 rings already.

[notin]

You still don’t get it. Wow! You also thought Bogey should have countered that 1/yr $30M ext. once again Wow!

 

It was the equivalent of a one year $30mill extension, but that’s only if you still include the 3 years $60mill that Bogaerts already opted out of.

 

And why shouldn’t he have counteroffered? That’s how negotiations work…

[Old Red]

Somehow stating facts is now viewed as spin.

 

Here is what DD had handed to him (by fWAR/years and cost)

 

30.3/4 Betts pre-arb + arb

17.4/4 Bogey pre-arb + arb

13.3/4 JBJ pre-arb + arb

8.9/4 Beni pre-arb + arb

8.3/3 Devers pre-arb + arb

4.5/1 Ortiz $16M

7.0/4 Vaz pre-arb + arb

2.9/4 Pedey $55M

2.9/3 Leon.

2.6/4 Holt

2.5/3 HRam $66M

-0.9/4 Pablo $78M

 

Acquired:

9.2/2 JD $44M

2.2/3 Moreland $19M

0.5/2 CYoung $13M

0.6/1.3 Pearce $8M

-0.7/1.3 Nunez

(0.2 Kinsler, -0.5 A Hill)

 

Pitching:

11.4/4 Porcello $88M

9.0/4 ERod pre-arb + arb

3.9/4 Barnes pre-arb + arb

1.7/3 Kelly 3 arb years

2.3/3 Wright pre-arb + arb

2.1/ Workman pre-arb + arb

0.6/1 Uehara $9M

1.2/2 Walden pre-arb + arb

1.0/2 RRoss 2 arbs

 

Added:

17.4/3 Sale $39M

10.6/4 Price $121M

5.8/3 Kimbrel $38M

3.2/3 Pomeranz $14M

1.4/.3 Fister

1.2/1.3 Eovaldi $20M

1.0/0.3 RHill

1.0/2 Brasier

0.3/1 CSmith

0.0/ 0.3 AReed

-0.1/0.3 Cashner

-0.4/ Thornburg

-0.4/ J Smith

-0.8 Ogando

 

We already know what was handed to Bloom, and we have heard by a broken record about a 5yr crop drought from the farm, but that still doesn’t change anything to what Bloom has done, or hasn’t done, and the WL record of the team. All the boos that JH, and Bloom have gotten should tell you something. It does me.

[notin]

People can argue whatever they want. I thought that extension was pretty good.

 

It was an extension to benefit Boston.

 

If it was so good, why did Bogaerts opt out?

[Old Red]

It was the equivalent of a one year $30mill extension, but that’s only if you still include the 3 years $60mill that Bogaerts already opted out of.

 

And why shouldn’t he have counteroffered? That’s how negotiations work…

 

Bogey hadn’t opted out yet, and yes Bloom was counting the other $60M. Wow!

[Old Red]

It was an extension to benefit Boston.

 

If it was so good, why did Bogaerts opt out?

 

Really? Good at the time, but salaries went up in the meantime, and he wanted more? Wow!

[notin]

Really? Good at the time, but salaries went up in the meantime, and he wanted more? Wow!

 

The $20mill AAV was dirt cheap for Bogaerts even in 2019. The $30mill AAV had already been breached by infielders Manny Machado and Anthony Rendon…

[moonslav59]

We already know what was handed to Bloom, and we have heard by a broken record about a 5yr crop drought from the farm, but that still doesn’t change anything to what Bloom has done, or hasn’t done, and the WL record of the team. All the boos that JH, and Bloom have gotten should tell you something. It does me.

 

No, you obviously don't know what was handed to Bloom.

 

Yes, Bloom was handed a lot of the players DD was handed, but at vastly different costs and production levels.

 

It's not spin to state facts of fWAR production and budget costs as factors in what each GM was handed and added.

 

Keep booing the team and employees of that team you supposedly love. That sure tells me something.

 

The 5 year drought and budget did change what Bloom was able to do. That's the point you and Dale gloss over and corkscrew spin away.

 

[notin]

Bogey hadn’t opted out yet, and yes Bloom was counting the other $60M. Wow!

 

(Sigh)

 

If Bogaerts signs the extension, it’s the same as opting out. It was a 4 year offer. And that could mean there were other differences besides the money. Contracts have more detail than salary and years. They’re dozens of pages long…

[Old Red]

No, you obviously don't know what was handed to Bloom.

 

Yes, Bloom was handed a lot of the players DD was handed, but at vastly different costs and production levels.

 

It's not spin to state facts of fWAR production and budget costs as factors in what each GM was handed and added.

 

Keep booing the team and employees of that team you supposedly love. That sure tells me something.

 

The 5 year drought and budget did change what Bloom was able to do. That's the point you and Dale gloss over and corkscrew spin away.

 

 

I’m not in to booing myself, but I sure loved Bloom, and JH getting it. Why do you think JH, and Bloom get boo boo’d when they are out in public? Fans have every right to do that, and that tells me something too, and I’m sure it’s not what it tells you, which is not great surprise.

[moonslav59]

The talk of Jethro Tull a while ago, makes me think, "Thick as a Brick."

[Old Red]

Why do the paying customers boo JH, and Bloom when they show their face in public? Do you have a clue? What does it say to you about those fans that have every right to do so? Do you think they are as not as good a fan as you are who bailed last year?

[moonslav59]

I’m not in to booing myself, but I sure loved Bloom, and JH getting it. Why do you think JH, and Bloom get boo boo’d when they are out in public? Fans have every right to do that, and that tells me something too, and I’m sure it’s not what it tells you, which is not great surprise.

 

I've never come close to even hinting there is no booing or that crybaby fans are not angry and seek to blame someone-anyone.

 

They and you feel te need to blame. It's who you are. You then misdirect your blame and erase or revise context and history.

 

I know damn well why clowns like you boo and cheer on other boo'ers. It's no surprise to me, at all. You pay a lot for tickets and feel entitled that your team- one of 30- needs to win or someone had to pay for losing. I get it. Really, I do.

 

And again, you keep equating disagreement with not understanding your position. I know your ignorant position, all to well.

 

Keep booing away. Boo at the guy responsible for 4 rings. Sounds real smart.

[Old Red]

I've never come close to even hinting there is no booing or that crybaby fans are not angry and seek to blame someone-anyone.

 

They and you feel te need to blame. It's who you are. You then misdirect your blame and erase or revise context and history.

 

I know damn well why clowns like you boo and cheer on other boo'ers. It's no surprise to me, at all. You pay a lot for tickets and feel entitled that your team- one of 30- needs to win or someone had to pay for losing. I get it. Really, I do.

 

And again, you keep equating disagreement with not understanding your position. I know your ignorant position, all to well.

 

Keep booing away. Boo at the guy responsible for 4 rings. Sounds real smart.

Thanks for all the kind words, and get into your rowboat and row as fast as you can away, and bailout on the season like you did last year. B O O! B O O BOO.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

Why do the paying customers boo JH, and Bloom when they show their face in public? Do you have a clue? What does it say to you about those fans that have every right to do so? Do you think they are as not as good a fan as you are who bailed last year?

 

You have every right to boo the guy who ended the curse and brought 4 rings in 2 decades. Nobody is saying you can't.

 

You also keep acting like my bailing on the team in July was somehow equal to your constant disdain and bitching about everything about our team. You bailed on the team the second they added Bloom as the GM and have not let up for one second, since.

 

Yes, you are not even close to being a "good fan" as I am. It's not even up for debate. 3 years you have done nothing but cry and bitch and say how much this team sucks. I bail in July, and you act like hell froze over.

[moonslav59]

Thanks for all the kind words.

 

If only you could understand them.

[Bellhorn04]

It was an extension to benefit Boston.

 

If it was so good, why did Bogaerts opt out?

 

If it was bad, why did Bogaerts sign it?

 

I think it was a good deal for both sides. The Sox got Bogey for 3 years at a reasonable rate, and he got the chance to cash in after 3 years, which he did.

 

Do you really think this was a bad contract?

[moonslav59]

(Sigh)

 

If Bogaerts signs the extension, it’s the same as opting out. It was a 4 year offer. And that could mean there were other differences besides the money. Contracts have more detail than salary and years. They’re dozens of pages long…

 

It's pointless trying to interact with Red. He says things he doesn't mean, yet doubles down on them, then when exposed for being wrong and yes lying (as he often knowingly repeats falsehoods), he calls you out for "over analyzing" or shifts to a time he misunderstood one of our posts and repeats a misconception over and over.

 

It really is pointless. He admits it was DD's fault for not extending Betts, then agrees 100% with Dale when blasting Bloom for not extending him and trading him away. Now, that I pointed that out, he will either deny he said it or talk about how I got something wrong.

 

Just watch...