A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[Old Red]

For someone who really tells everyone about the right he has to his opinion, you sure as Hell like to go out of your way to squelch anyone else’s.

 

As for the closer, Houck (if healthy) was fine in that role. Schreiber has pitched almost exclusively in high leverage situations (which does mean even if he steps back he still can very likely pitch in regular middle relief roles) and Whitlock if healthy is just a flat out outstanding reliever. There’s no reason to believe any of them are worse options than aging and declining players like the list of free agent closers from earlier in this thread.

 

The Sox need to as good bullpen arms. I’ve been hyping and overhyping Michael Fulmer and Rafael Montero (both of whom have closer experience) for weeks now (including Fulmer at the deadline).

e

You have your opinions,and I have mine, so disagreeing is not squelching, but you will look at it different from me, which is fine. You can have Houck, and I’ll take someone else. Schreiber could be a 1 yr wonder, and not someone I’m counting on for next year to have a big role, and even before he was hurt Whitlock wasn’t as lockdown as he was last year, so you go with your staff, and I’d go with something different.

[dgalehouse]

The bullpen should be the number one priority. Not some afterthought. It needs an overhaul. So many games are lost because the opponent invariably has the better bullpen. How can you not see that? Bringing back this same crew and hoping for better results would be insane.

[notin]

Would the Red Sox want Daniel Bard's two-year, $19 million contract through 2024?

 

That's a smidgen more than the two-year contract for Matt Barnes through 2023.

 

Why would the Rockies trade Bard?

 

The Rockies are not a team that makes deals to dump salary or have fire sales to get prospects, even when they should…

[notin]

The bullpen should be the number one priority. Not some afterthought. It needs an overhaul. So many games are lost because the opponent invariably has the better bullpen. How can you not see that? Bringing back this same crew and hoping for better results would be insane.

 

Bullpen after the top 3 (Houck, Whitlock, and Schreiber). Agreed. I’m ok with what little we’ve seen from Kelly, too. Winckowski and/or Crawford, if not dealt, might settle into the bullpen, too.

 

Barnes will probably be back, but not because he’s needed.

 

Hopefully we’re seeing the final Sox games for Brasier, Ort, Danish, and Strahm. Please no more Brasier. I’ve been on that wagon since 2019…

[Old Red]

The bullpen should be the number one priority. Not some afterthought. It needs an overhaul. So many games are lost because the opponent invariably has the better bullpen. How can you not see that? Bringing back this same crew and hoping for better results would be insane.

 

100% agree. The Braves won the WS last year, and had a good BP, and they still went out, and shelled out some money for Jensen 36 (saves). You can’t have to many good BP arms. Even Colorado has seen the the importance of having a reliable closer.

[notin]

100% agree. The Braves won the WS last year, and had a good BP, and they still went out, and shelled out some money for Jensen 36 (saves). You can’t have to many good BP arms. Even Colorado has seen the the importance of having a reliable closer.

 

Was Houck unreliable?

[Old Red]

Was Houck unreliable?

 

Not reliable enough for me, and I think he’s more suited for long relief. The Sox can do better.

[moonslav59]

Old friend Daniel Bard would be better, and a big no on Kimbrel. Kimbrel was just taken out of the closer role by the Dodgers, who may regret come postseason they did not resign Jensen.

 

It's good to see you made an actual named suggestion.

 

I do not think Bard is any more reliable than Barnes, and way less than Whitlock and Houck, despite their injury issues. I'd also put Schreiber ahead of Bard, but both have questionable futures.

Edited September 24, 2022 by moonslav59

[notin]

Not reliable enough for me, and I think he’s more suited for long relief. The Sox can do better.

 

He was 8 for 9 in save chances and really, the ninth inning issues for this team were largely in check while he was closing.

 

However this really magnified how bad a lot of the 6-8th inning pitchers were. And especially the 10th inning, although some of that might be on Cora, who seemed to like Barnes in that role for far too long…

[notin]

It's good to see you made an actual named suggestion.

 

I do not think Bard is any more reliable than Barnes, and way less than Whitlock and Houck, despite their injury issues. I'd also put Schreiber ahead of Bard, but both have questionable futures.

 

Bard was better this year than any of the free agents mvp listed, except Montero maybe Robertson. Of course, he did omit Fulmer.

[moonslav59]

Bard was better this year than any of the free agents mvp listed, except Montero maybe Robertson. Of course, he did omit Fulmer.

 

Yes, he was, but how much hope would you have for him, next year, with the Sox?

 

There is a reason he was not on your list.

[Old Red]

It's good to see you made an actual named suggestion.

 

I do not think Bard is any more reliable than Barnes, and way less than Whitlock and Houck, despite their injury issues. I'd also put Schreiber ahead of Bard, but both have questionable futures.

57-32-63-32

 

57 inn-32 hits-63K’s, and 32 saves. That’s pretty good for me, and Barnes is as reliable as that? I’ll take Bard to be the CLOSER over any of the 4 Red Sox pitchers you mentioned. I’m not saying Bard is better than Whitlock, but Whitlock hasn’t proved he can be a closer which is what we’re talking about. Your just assuming that Schreiber will be as good next year, and i wouldn’t take that chance. I know you wouldn’t spend money on a closer, and I would. Two entirely different philosophies just like you saying Bard is not anymore reliable than Barnes. You got stats that show different? I talking now, and not then.

[dgalehouse]

Bullpen after the top 3 (Houck, Whitlock, and Schreiber). Agreed. I’m ok with what little we’ve seen from Kelly, too. Winckowski and/or Crawford, if not dealt, might settle into the bullpen, too.

 

Barnes will probably be back, but not because he’s needed.

 

Hopefully we’re seeing the final Sox games for Brasier, Ort, Danish, and Strahm. Please no more Brasier. I’ve been on that wagon since 2019…

 

One guy I might want to take a little longer look at is Ort. Just because he throws so hard. Obviously, he has not been able to harness it as yet and he is not a kid.

[moonslav59]

Bullpen after the top 3 (Houck, Whitlock, and Schreiber). Agreed. I’m ok with what little we’ve seen from Kelly, too. Winckowski and/or Crawford, if not dealt, might settle into the bullpen, too.

 

Barnes will probably be back, but not because he’s needed.

 

Hopefully we’re seeing the final Sox games for Brasier, Ort, Danish, and Strahm. Please no more Brasier. I’ve been on that wagon since 2019…

 

How many games, this season, were Houck, Whitlock and Schreiber not on the IL or starting? I'd add piggy-backing, too, but technically that was pen work.

 

I think the pen was okay to pretty good, when all 3 were in the pen.

 

Giving all three clearly defined pen roles in 2023 and then sticking to the plan might create a very nice scenario, but this is assuming good health.

 

I think we need to add a solid RP'er (closer or set up.) I'd like to add 2, but I'm not sure JH will allow a big enough budget to fill all our needs adequately, so we may need to settle on one really solid one or try something like Diekman & Strahm again, hopefully with better luck.

 

I'd also like to add that with those 3, plus an additional solid Rp'er added, the rest of the pen should be okay in lesser roles than they were thrown into in 2022.

 

I still have some hopes that...

Barnes can return to his 2017-2020 norm

Taylor can return from his injury

Crawford, Wink or Seabold can fill a long/low leverage relief role

German, Kelly or Danish can provide a plus as relief depth or possibly more.

I have little faith in Ort, Bazardo, DHern and a few others, and no faith in Brasier, but maybe one can surprise us, or someone like Mata, Ward, Walter, Murphy or Santos can rise up and fill a key role as our 7th or 8th Rp'er.

 

Relief Aces:

Whitlock

Houck

 

Solid Set-up

Schreiber

Addition (Lh'd?)

 

Key Roles

Barnes

Taylor

 

The last 2 in the pen

Crawford

German

 

Possibles

Kelly, Danish, Wink, Seabold, Bazardo, Mata, Ward, Walter, Murphy, Santos, Ort, Brasiery, Politi

[moonslav59]

57-32-63-32

 

57 inn-32 hits-63K’s, and 32 saves. That’s pretty good for me, and Barnes is as reliable as that? I’ll take Bard to be the CLOSER over any of the 4 Red Sox pitchers you mentioned. I’m not saying Bard is better than Whitlock, but Whitlock hasn’t proved he can be a closer which is what we’re talking about. Your just assuming that Schreiber will be as good next year, and i wouldn’t take that chance. I know you wouldn’t spend money on a closer, and I would. Two entirely different philosophies just like you saying Bard is not anymore reliable than Barnes. You got stats that show different? I talking now, and not then.

 

Well, you rely so heavily on the here and now, despite evidence that shows that adding guys based on only one good year in the last few years is a losing idea more often than not.

 

I have no evidence based on 2022 to say Barnes is more reliable than Bard, so providing past numbers would just fall on deaf ears. (BTW, I don't think either Barnes or Bard are "reliable" for 2023, but both have significant hopes they can be. I'd be okay with saying maybe Bard has slightly better hopes, but to me, both have similar outlooks going forward.)

 

Agree to disagree and move on.

[Old Red]

Well, you rely so heavily on the here and now, despite evidence that shows that adding guys based on only one good year in the last few years is a losing idea more often than not.

 

I have no evidence based on 2022 to say Barnes is more reliable than Bard, so providing past numbers would just fall on deaf ears. (BTW, I don't think either Barnes or Bard are "reliable" for 2023, but both have significant hopes they can be. I'd be okay with saying maybe Bard has slightly better hopes, but to me, both have similar outlooks going forward.)

 

Agree to disagree and move on.

Boy you are really grasping at something to be pinning any kind of hopes on Barnes? You want to go back before 2022 to help your case for Barnes go for it. We do agree at 37 Bard might not be reliable for the next two years of his contract, but I still take him over Barnes. Moved on.

[moonslav59]

57-32-63-32

 

57 inn-32 hits-63K’s, and 32 saves. That’s pretty good for me, and Barnes is as reliable as that? I’ll take Bard to be the CLOSER over any of the 4 Red Sox pitchers you mentioned. I’m not saying Bard is better than Whitlock, but Whitlock hasn’t proved he can be a closer which is what we’re talking about. Your just assuming that Schreiber will be as good next year, and i wouldn’t take that chance. I know you wouldn’t spend money on a closer, and I would. Two entirely different philosophies just like you saying Bard is not anymore reliable than Barnes. You got stats that show different? I talking now, and not then.

 

One thing I find puzzling. You seem to rely heavily on what certain players are doing for their team, right now or this year and only this year, but when it came to Kike, last fall. You went out of your way to stress his past as a utility guy with a .240 BA. Why is Bard's past not important, but Kike's was, last year?

 

I'm not trying to bust your balls. I'm just curious why the criteria changes for certain players.

 

To me, Kike has had some very good years in the past 5 seasons. He's had some that were not so nice, but his defense has been steady, and he's been a plus one or more player since 2016.

 

Bard was out of baseball for like 7 years, and sucked, last year. I'm not sure why he is viewed more reliable and highly, by you, than someone like Kike.

[moonslav59]

Boy you are really grasping at something to be pinning any kind of hopes on Barnes? You want to go back before 2022 to help your case for Barnes go for it. We do agree at 37 Bard might not be reliable for the next two years of his contract, but I still take him over Barnes. Moved on.

 

Read my words:

 

"I don't think either Barnes or Bard are "reliable"

 

I'd like both as my 7th or 8th RP'er- maybe 5th or 6th, if the top 4 are solid, but I have slight hopes for both in 2023.

[moonslav59]

Boy you are really grasping at something to be pinning any kind of hopes on Barnes? You want to go back before 2022 to help your case for Barnes go for it. We do agree at 37 Bard might not be reliable for the next two years of his contract, but I still take him over Barnes. Moved on.

 

How about looking at 2022?

 

Since August 11th, Barnes has pitched in 17 games (16.1 IP)

15 Hits

4 BB

18 Ks

1.65 ERA

2.01 FIP

.558 OPS Against

 

I'm not expecting this for 2023, but it does provide some hopes. You, apaprently have no hopes, at all.

 

Forget the first half of 2021. He will not return to that, either, but he has a long history of being pretty good. He had 11 bad innings in 2021 and 20 IP to start 2022, and that's enough for you to lose every ounce of hope.

 

Many very good RP'ers have bad 30 inning stretches in their careers and then go on to be very effective, afterwards. Do you doubt this? Do you really have no hopes for Barnes?

[Old Red]

One thing I find puzzling. You seem to rely heavily on what certain players are doing for their team, right now or this year and only this year, but when it came to Kike, last fall. You went out of your way to stress his past as a utility guy with a .240 BA. Why is Bard's past not important, but Kike's was, last year?

 

I'm not trying to bust your balls. I'm just curious why the criteria changes for certain players.

 

To me, Kike has had some very good years in the past 5 seasons. He's had some that were not so nice, but his defense has been steady, and he's been a plus one or more player since 2016.

 

Bard was out of baseball for like 7 years, and sucked, last year. I'm not sure why he is viewed more reliable and highly, by you, than someone like Kike.

Really? Really? You want to come back with Kike? For all I know Bard may be having a career year this year never to be seen again, and at his age that’s quite possible, but to put Kike into the conversation is really like wow, and I’m not even going there.

[Old Red]

How about looking at 2022?

 

Since August 11th, Barnes has pitched in 17 games (16.1 IP)

15 Hits

4 BB

18 Ks

1.65 ERA

2.01 FIP

.558 OPS Against

 

I'm not expecting this for 2023, but it does provide some hopes. You, apaprently have no hopes, at all.

 

Forget the first half of 2021. He will not return to that, either, but he has a long history of being pretty good. He had 11 bad innings in 2021 and 20 IP to start 2022, and that's enough for you to lose every ounce of hope.

 

Many very good RP'ers have bad 30 inning stretches in their careers and then go on to be very effective, afterwards. Do you doubt this? Do you really have no hopes for Barnes?

 

I thought we were moving on like you said?

[moonslav59]

I thought we were moving on like you said?

 

So, you have no hope for Barnes going forward?

[Old Red]

So, you have no hope for Barnes going forward?

 

I have hope, but not counting on him. If he comes back great.

[moonslav59]

I have hope, but not counting on him. If he comes back great.

 

I don't expect anything either, but you seemed to be surprised I had any hopes at all.

 

I'd start by pencilling him in as our 7th or 8th RP'er, due to no options and his salary, but ST'ing may move him up. I doubt we DFA him, even if he has a s***** spring. They may try to IL him, if that happens.

 

I also wonder, if Diekman had trade value, we might end up trading him (Barnes), with some cash, if we feel he will b e no help going forward.

 

I don't think a 30 IP bad stretch by a pretty reliable RP over 5-6 years should be enough to lose all hope.

 

As of now, he has to prove he does not belong on the 26- not the other way around.

Edited September 24, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

I don't expect anything either, but you seemed to be surprised I had any hopes at all.

 

I'd start by pencilling him in as our 7th or 8th RP'er, due to no options and his salary, but ST'ing may move him up. I doubt we DFA him, even if he has a s***** spring. They may try to IL him, if that happens.

 

I also wonder, if Diekman had trade value, we might end up trading him, with some cash, if we feel he will b e no help going forward.

 

I don't think a 30 IP bad stretch by a pretty reliable RP over 5-6 years should be enough to lose all hope.

 

As of now, he has to prove he does not belong on the 26- not the other way around.

Diekman?

[moonslav59]

Diekman?

 

Sorry. My post was not clearly stated. My bad.

 

Diekman had trade value, yes. We got the CWS to pay his full 2022-2023 contract while giving us our starting catcher for the next 2 years.

 

If he had value, maybe Barnes (with some cash) might, too.

 

(I went back and edited my previous post.)

[Larry Cook]

The four steps this offseason to get us to the World Series:

 

1.) sign short stop trea turner! Bye bye bogey, good luck chasing those dollars.

2.) sign closer Diaz. cohen has really deep pockets so Hang’em Chaim is going to have get creative.

3.) trade for or sign a stud outfielder. Preferably with power!

4.) replace the sorry excuse for a medical staff we currently have with competent medical personnel so we can stay healthier in 2023!!!

[notin]

The four steps this offseason to get us to the World Series:

 

1.) sign short stop trea turner! Bye bye bogey, good luck chasing those dollars.

2.) sign closer Diaz. cohen has really deep pockets so Hang’em Chaim is going to have get creative.

3.) trade for or sign a stud outfielder. Preferably with power!

4.) replace the sorry excuse for a medical staff we currently have with competent medical personnel so we can stay healthier in 2023!!!

 

 

So what do you want in a medical staff? Someone who can steal Sale’s bike?

 

I’ve seen people complain about the medical staff on forums for far too long, probably through several dozen trainers and doctors. But somehow each and every one was incompetent, probably because players still got hurt.

 

Folks - players getting injured is not the fault of the medical staff. When you stub your toe at home or cut yourself shaving, do you blame your doctor then, too? Their athletes doing physical things and that can cause physical pain. It’s part of sports…

[moonslav59]

The four steps this offseason to get us to the World Series:

 

1.) sign short stop trea turner! Bye bye bogey, good luck chasing those dollars.

2.) sign closer Diaz. cohen has really deep pockets so Hang’em Chaim is going to have get creative.

3.) trade for or sign a stud outfielder. Preferably with power!

4.) replace the sorry excuse for a medical staff we currently have with competent medical personnel so we can stay healthier in 2023!!!

 

So, with these you forgot #5 JH sells the team to a bigger spender.

[jad]

The four steps this offseason to get us to the World Series:

 

1.) sign short stop trea turner! Bye bye bogey, good luck chasing those dollars.

2.) sign closer Diaz. cohen has really deep pockets so Hang’em Chaim is going to have get creative.

3.) trade for or sign a stud outfielder. Preferably with power!

4.) replace the sorry excuse for a medical staff we currently have with competent medical personnel so we can stay healthier in 2023!!!

 

Yeah I'm getting rid of my doctors to; I don't like the fact that I got Covid, had the flu earlier, got a concussion, and am generally not as strong as I was fifty years ago. Then I'm firing everyone who does work for me and hiring a bunch of stoner dudes I know nothing about.