Cora is first half AL manager of the year

[Kimmi]

Two bad inventions. Openers, and piggybackers.

 

Ditto. I am not a fan of either one.

[Old Red]

Agree "turned the season around" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your version gives the Sox several uncounted wins instead of losses. Is it 8? If so, that puts the Sox neck and neck with the Astros for 2d best record in the AL and--you're going to just love this--4 games behind the Yankees. If you convert 1 of the losses to the Yankees, the margin is 3 games.

 

I completely agree a closer has to start sometime, but would challenge you to find just one who started closing on the first day (or first closeable game) of a season. Last season was Whitlock's first ever in MLB. And, for the record, he had 2 saves and 3 blown saves without ever being a closer.

 

At the beginning of the season Barnes and Robles had the experience as closers. Indeed, in the first game of the season, April 8, Whitlock was a reliever who pitched 2.1 innings and gave up 1 run. The 9th inning pitcher was--wait for it--Robles, who pitched a scoreless 9th. Then Dieckman and Brasier gave up the 1 unearned run in the 10th and Crawford the winning unearned run in the 11.

 

In his very next game, April 12, Whitlock pitched 4 scoreless innings in relief and the Sox beat the Tigers. Three outings later, April 23, he pitched 4 more scoreless innings as the starter vs. the Rays, a game the Sox lost in the 10th when Robles gave up an unearned run after the Sox failed to score (with a man on 2b) in the top of the 10th.

 

Indeed, for the month of April Whitlock pitched 16.2 innings--against the Yankees, Twins, Jays, Rays, and Tigers--while giving up 1 earned run for an ERA of 0.54. The Sox won 3 of those 6 games, and could have won 2 others (3-2 to the Rays and 1-0 to the Jays) if the Sox hitting had been better.

 

And you claim that Cora the idiot misused Whitlock in April? Do you even look at actual facts before you sound off? No, you don't. You simply make stuff up.

 

I’m not agreeing with you that Cora is a IDIOT, nor have I called him one. Moon said I hated Cora, and that wasn’t true either, so on both counts FAKE NEWS. You two are quite a twosome making stuff up.

[Old Red]

It's all "eye test."

 

Your eyes must not be very good to need all kinds of stats to know what’s going on.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Old Red

[notin]

Your eyes must not be very good to need all kinds of stats to know what’s going on.

 

Yes, make fun of people with vision problems…

[moonslav59]

Yes, make fun of people with vision problems…

 

 

 

It's stats and reading from a computer screen that gives me difficulty. I can see the game fine from my 60 inch screen.

 

It's not stats that are Red's issue, it's stats he doesn't like.

 

He uses BA. He uses RBIs. He uses sample sizes that fit his position, like we all do, but don't use OPS, OBP, SLG or dare use WAR. DRS or UZR/150 or the like.

 

Only his stats matter.

 

[Old Red]

Yes, make fun of people with vision problems…

 

Nothing to do with vision problems, but the need for analytics to know what’s going on. 20-20 vision is no good if you don’t use it.

[Old Red]

It's stats and reading from a computer screen that gives me difficulty. I can see the game fine from my 60 inch screen.

 

It's not stats that are Red's issue, it's stats he doesn't like.

 

He uses BA. He uses RBIs. He uses sample sizes that fit his position, like we all do, but don't use OPS, OBP, SLG or dare use WAR. DRS or UZR/150 or the like.

 

Only his stats matter.

 

 

Tell the whole story that it’s not just the use of the old standard BA, RBI, and HR, but digging deeper to see what they really mean like Schwarber, and his 28 HR would probably have more RBI if he batted down lower in the order, and same with Mookie, so there is more to it than just scratching the surface, and no it’s not only my stats matter, but that I don’t need all your stats to know what’s going on that for some reason is something you don’t like, or understand. It’s NOT, or has anything to do with not liking all the stats that you do,so I don’t know where you got the idea i don’t like them. I just don’t need them. Nothing wrong with how I do it, and nothing wrong with how you do it. I do use OBP though.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

And for me, he edges out Boone as MOY in 2022. Boone is probably #2 but he hasnt had nearly the s*** go wrong Cora has

 

I'm not sure either one deserves it.

[Maxbialystock]

I’m not agreeing with you that Cora is a IDIOT, nor have I called him one. Moon said I hated Cora, and that wasn’t true either, so on both counts FAKE NEWS. You two are quite a twosome making stuff up.

 

I'm happy to be wrong on this point. "Idiot" is no doubt an exaggeration. So, please enlighten me. What have you said about Cora that is in any way positive?

[moonslav59]

I'm happy to be wrong on this point. "Idiot" is no doubt an exaggeration. So, please enlighten me. What have you said about Cora that is in any way positive?

 

Don't hold your breath.

Edited July 13, 2022 by moonslav59

[Maxbialystock]

I’m not agreeing with you that Cora is a IDIOT, nor have I called him one. Moon said I hated Cora, and that wasn’t true either, so on both counts FAKE NEWS. You two are quite a twosome making stuff up.

 

One thing I grant you is the uncanny ability to ignore specific examples of how you just might have been wrong about Whitlock this year--and divert everyone's attention by focusing on the word "idiot."

 

Thus this syllogism: Whitlock should have been the Sox closer on the first day of the 2022 season; he has yet to be the closer over halfway through the season and in fact spent most of it as a starter; Cora is the reason for this big misdeed; I (Old Red) have never said anything disparaging about Cora.

[moonslav59]

One thing I grant you is the uncanny ability to ignore specific examples of how you just might have been wrong about Whitlock this year--and divert everyone's attention by focusing on the word "idiot."

 

Thus this syllogism: Whitlock should have been the Sox closer on the first day of the 2022 season; he has yet to be the closer over halfway through the season and in fact spent most of it as a starter; Cora is the reason for this big misdeed; I (Old Red) have never said anything disparaging about Cora.

 

I can't remember any good being said, but maybe there was a moment or two, here and there...

Edited July 13, 2022 by moonslav59

[notin]

I'm happy to be wrong on this point. "Idiot" is no doubt an exaggeration. So, please enlighten me. What have you said about Cora that is in any way positive?

 

Are you asking Old Red to clarify something? That never goes over well…

[Old Red]

One thing I grant you is the uncanny ability to ignore specific examples of how you just might have been wrong about Whitlock this year--and divert everyone's attention by focusing on the word "idiot."

 

Thus this syllogism: Whitlock should have been the Sox closer on the first day of the 2022 season; he has yet to be the closer over halfway through the season and in fact spent most of it as a starter; Cora is the reason for this big misdeed; I (Old Red) have never said anything disparaging about Cora.

 

I hope you have some cheese with all that WHINE. To all my buddies especially Moon who’s head I must live in, because I don’t go a day without being mentioned in one of his articles, and some times it’s article to article, and believe me Moon’s head is not where anyone wants to be, but I’m going out, and chase whales around for a couple of days, so keep an eye on things for me, and I’ll see you when I get back. Hopefully the Sox can salvage the rest of this series. As usual as Mick Foley would say Have a Good Day.

[Bellhorn04]

I hope you have some cheese with all that WHINE. To all my buddies especially Moon who’s head I must live in, because I don’t go a day without being mentioned in one of his articles, and some times it’s article to article, and believe me Moon’s head is not where anyone wants to be, but I’m going out, and chase whales around for a couple of days, so keep an eye on things for me, and I’ll see you when I get back. Hopefully the Sox can salvage the rest of this series. As usual as Mick Foley would say Have a Good Day.

 

Captain Ahab?

[Old Red]

Captain Ahab?

 

More like Capt. Crunch.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Captain Ahab?

 

Fernando Abad pitcher?

[Bellhorn04]

Fernando Abad pitcher?

 

Yes, he was.

[Kimmi]

Your eyes must not be very good to need all kinds of stats to know what’s going on.

 

The thing about the eye test is that your eyes will mislead you. Not all the time, but often enough. I'm not trying to in any way imply that you don't know baseball or that you don't know what you're seeing, it's just a fact of human nature. It happens with everyone. Stats are needed.

[Bellhorn04]

The thing about the eye test is that your eyes will mislead you. Not all the time, but often enough. I'm not trying to in any way imply that you don't know baseball or that you don't know what you're seeing, it's just a fact of human nature. It happens with everyone. Stats are needed.

 

No one has ever relied completely on the eye test. Even old schoolers looked at batting averages, earned run averages, fielding percentages, whatever. We just have more refined (and in some cases trickier) stats now.

[moonslav59]

The thing about the eye test is that your eyes will mislead you. Not all the time, but often enough. I'm not trying to in any way imply that you don't know baseball or that you don't know what you're seeing, it's just a fact of human nature. It happens with everyone. Stats are needed.

 

The other thing about the "eye test" is that hardly anyone watches other games, besides the Sox, and nobody watched every play of every MLB game, so it's hard to know comparative value of anyone without stats or metrics to help with personal observations.

 

Stats can be deceiving.

Stats can be cherry-picked to suit your purposes.

Stats can miss the big picture or another aspect of player value or non value.

Stats don't lie, though.

 

It always gets me when an eye test guy says something like, "so-and-so has been in an awful slump, lately," and you show some stats that show the guy has a .900 OPS over the last week, and .850 over the last 2 weeks, and an .800 over the last month, and they still stick to their beliefs.

 

Sure, some of those hits, in that time period, might have been lame, of the players has made outs every key situation during that time, but facts are facts.

[Kimmi]

No one has ever relied completely on the eye test. Even old schoolers looked at batting averages, earned run averages, fielding percentages, whatever. We just have more refined (and in some cases trickier) stats now.

 

Understood. No one has to use stats if they don't want to, traditional or refined. I understand that there a lot of people who do not like advanced stats. As a fan of advanced stats, I am going to defend those of us who use them.

[moonslav59]

No one has ever relied completely on the eye test. Even old schoolers looked at batting averages, earned run averages, fielding percentages, whatever. We just have more refined (and in some cases trickier) stats now.

 

Yes, and I made that point earlier. It's not usually about stats vs the eye test, it's about specific stats or metrics being used that a particular poster does not like, trust or understand, fully.

 

Some of the "trickier" stats involve defense and the full array of a catcher's duties and influences. Fldg% and eye tests are so severely flawed that criticizing the flaws of DRS and UZR, of which there are many faults, really rings hollow, to me.

[moonslav59]

Understood. No one has to use stats if they don't want to, traditional or refined. I understand that there a lot of people who do not like advanced stats. As a fan of advanced stats, I am going to defend those of us who use them.

 

Careful. You'll be linked with the posse.

[Kimmi]

The other thing about the "eye test" is that hardly anyone watches other games, besides the Sox, and nobody watched every play of every MLB game, so it's hard to know comparative value of anyone without stats or metrics to help with personal observations.

 

Stats can be deceiving.

Stats can be cherry-picked to suit your purposes.

Stats can miss the big picture or another aspect of player value or non value.

Stats don't lie, though.

 

It always gets me when an eye test guy says something like, "so-and-so has been in an awful slump, lately," and you show some stats that show the guy has a .900 OPS over the last week, and .850 over the last 2 weeks, and an .800 over the last month, and they still stick to their beliefs.

 

Sure, some of those hits, in that time period, might have been lame, of the players has made outs every key situation during that time, but facts are facts.

 

Agreed. The more information you look at, including the eye test, the better the assessment you will be able to get, and the better the understanding of what is going on.

 

As I said, I understand that advanced stats are not for everyone and that's okay. When having discussions/debates on a message board, however, I not only think they are fair game, but I also think they are necessary.

[Kimmi]

Careful. You'll be linked with the posse.

 

According to some poster, I don't remember who, I once had a posse, but don't remember who was in that posse.

 

I would be honored to be a member of the advanced stats posse.

[mvp 78]

According to some poster, I don't remember who, I once had a posse, but don't remember who was in that posse.

 

I would be honored to be a member of the advanced stats posse.

 

The Insane Kimmie Posse.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I agree.

 

In 2021, Cora got credit for sticking with guys like Dalbec, Kike and Renfroe, who struggled early, but then he should get dinged for sticking with players like Dalbec, Diekman and others, this year.

 

Our 40 man roster is way stronger than 2020 and significantly stronger than 2021. This is the area Bloom addressed right out of the gate, and it shows.

 

Given a larger budget, Bloom was finally given the chance to address the top of the 26 man roster. So far, Story has been a letdown, despite his RBI total keeping him from being a total disaster out of the gate.

 

Wacha & Strahm carried us for a while. Last spring's waiver wire pick-up of Schreiber is looking like the type of "gems in the rough" finds the Rays were famous for making, when Bloom was there. Refsnyder is quickly proving to be a similar type find.

 

So far, we've seen 20 players get 3 or more PAs and 14 with 80 or more. The bottom 5 of those 14 have done much better than the bottom 5 of 2021.

 

PAs Player OPS

203 Cordero .713

127 Arroyo .640

101 Duran .763

91 Plawecki .487

80 Refsnyder .957

 

2021:

271 Marwin .567

173 Plawecki .737

136 Cordero .497

127 Santana .597

112 Duran .578

(+82 Chavis .549/ 75 Arauz .643)

 

The biggest gains have come from the SP'er pick-ups as compared to 2021's:

 

IP Pitcher ERA

2021

137 Richards 4.87

114 Perez 4.74

73 Whitlock 1.96

2022

71 R Hill 4.20

70 Wacha 2.69

36 Davis 2.48 (much pen than starter)

 

Pen

2021

62 Ottavino 4.21

53 Sawamura 3.06

37 Andriese 6.03 (DFA'd)

2022

36 Davis 2.48

31 Danish 4.02

31 Diekman 3.48

29 Schreiber 0.62

28 Strahm 3.58

25 Robles 5.84

 

 

In the case of Story I'd say being the best defensive 2nd baseman in the AL also prevents Story from "being a total disaster."

[moonslav59]

Agreed. The more information you look at, including the eye test, the better the assessment you will be able to get, and the better the understanding of what is going on.

 

As I said, I understand that advanced stats are not for everyone and that's okay. When having discussions/debates on a message board, however, I not only think they are fair game, but I also think they are necessary.

 

Yes, and what I think some eye test posters might think is that stat geeks don't watch or enjoy watching the game like they do. Like numbers are swirling around our head during the game, that blind us to what we see on the field.

 

Another thing I feel they may get wrong is that they think we see a stat or metric and then watch a game trying to confirm it is true. On this point, I'd like to add how I often use stats and metrics. Many times, I observe a certain trend or aspect of a player and form an opinion, then I look to see if the stats back up my opinion and or compare how said player compares to others in the area I formed an opinion.

 

One example was when Ellsbury came up. I originally thought he was a plus defender, but when I looked at his numbers it showed otherwise. Instead of just believing the stats, I started watching him more closely. Now, some might think I was then letting the stats bias my observations, but I don't think I did. I had been arguing with other posters that he was a plus defender. I'd have to admit I was wrong, which I ended up doing after watching more closely over time. The further aspect of this example was that eventually, Ellsbury did become a plus defender over the year, and my observations and the stats/metrics showed he did.

 

I'm not sure why BA has so much more pull than SLG or OBP, for some. Sure, a single is worth more than a walk, but clearly a 2B, 3B, and HR are worth more than a single or walk, right? Then, the whole rbi thing. It's been beaten to death, so I'll let that one go, except to say that it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that some posters who use rbi way more than others, also want us to re-sign Bogey way more than others.

 

I guess we all have our contradictions- stat geeks and non stat geeks.

 

[moonslav59]

In the case of Story I'd say being the best defensive 2nd baseman in the AL also prevents Story from "being a total disaster."

 

True dat.

 

He's been astounding on defense.

 

I still wonder about where he plays, next year: SS or 2B.