Overall Grade on Bloom & Cora

[Old Red]

But when we use that very excuse for Bloom, you dismiss it and still blame Bloom.

 

I never blamed Bloom for trading Mookie, or having to work with a checking account not as big as DD, or Theo.

[moonslav59]

I think the timeline is that DD signed Sale and Bogey to their extensions after negotiations broke down with Mookie.

 

Let me reword it: do you think Henry let's Bloom go higher with Betts had DD not extended Sale? Same question with not signing Big Nate.

 

I'm not saying I think yes. Maybe Henry has an upper limit nobody can cross.

[moonslav59]

I never blamed Bloom for trading Mookie, or having to work with a checking account not as big as DD, or Theo.

 

True. You just blame him for not getting a better return, despite not knowing what else was offered.

 

I may be wrong, and I hesitate to ask you to clarify your position, as that often sets you off, but you seem to hold the position that Bloom must sign Bogey but don't want him to pay what most think he will get, and if we lose Bogey, it will be Bloom's fault. Am I wrong assuming this?

[Old Red]

True. You just blame him for not getting a better return, despite not knowing what else was offered.

 

I may be wrong, and I hesitate to ask you to clarify your position, as that often sets you off, but you seem to hold the position that Bloom must sign Bogey but don't want him to pay what most think he will get, and if we lose Bogey, it will be Bloom's fault. Am I wrong assuming this?

 

I don’t know what else was out there for a return for Mookie, and neither do you know that the Dodgers were the only one interested. I do not hold the position that Bloom must sign Bogey, but I would like that to happen. If a fair offer is presented like to me would be 6/150 to 6/ 180, and Bogey turns it down then thanks for all you’ve done, and bye bye. I do blame Bloom for that insulting offer he made before though. If Bogey turns down a good offer it’s on him.

[notin]

The claim that Bloom inherited a mess is pure fiction. He inherited J.D. Martinez , Devers , Bogaerts , Vazquez , Moreland and an outfield known as the " Killer Bees" ( featuring the second best player in the game ) that was considered one the finest , if not the finest in the land . A pitching staff that included Sale ( injured ) , Eovaldi , E-Rod ,Price and Barnes. Not exactly what I would call a mess. At this moment , ( as we await the return of Sale ) Martinez , Devers , Bogaerts and Eovaldi are still the heart and soul of this team , and among the very best in the game today.

 

He also inherited a $240mill payroll and a directive to get under the luxury tax threshold. That was the whole point in trading Betts.

 

It’s not the he got a team full of bad players; he got a team full of talented but very expensive ones and couldn’t keep them all, and a farm with very limited MLB-ready talent to try to fill any gaps with minimum wage players…

[notin]

My opinion is DD would have gone higher if it was up to him.

 

This is supported by history to some extent…

[notin]

I don’t know what else was out there for a return for Mookie, and neither do you know that the Dodgers were the only one interested. I do not hold the position that Bloom must sign Bogey, but I would like that to happen. If a fair offer is presented like to me would be 6/150 to 6/ 180, and Bogey turns it down then thanks for all you’ve done, and bye bye. I do blame Bloom for that insulting offer he made before though. If Bogey turns down a good offer it’s on him.

 

 

The Padres reportedly offered one of LHP Joey Lucchesi or RHP Cal Quantrill plus one of OF Josh Naylor or OF Manny Margot, but the Sox also had to take back Wil Myers’ entire contract…

[Old Red]

The Padres reportedly offered one of LHP Joey Lucchesi or RHP Cal Quantrill plus one of OF Josh Naylor or OF Manny Margot, but the Sox also had to take back Wil Myers’ entire contract…

 

Anything discussed on Price?

[moonslav59]

I don’t know what else was out there for a return for Mookie, and neither do you know that the Dodgers were the only one interested. I do not hold the position that Bloom must sign Bogey, but I would like that to happen. If a fair offer is presented like to me would be 6/150 to 6/ 180, and Bogey turns it down then thanks for all you’ve done, and bye bye. I do blame Bloom for that insulting offer he made before though. If Bogey turns down a good offer it’s on him.

 

Thanks

[notin]

Anything discussed on Price?

 

Not sure. They booted me off that Zoom call by then…

[moonslav59]

Anything discussed on Price?

 

If we had to take Myers whole contract, I think that negates any chance that deal could fit the budget given Bloom that winter. No Price had to be a given, IMO.

[Old Red]

If we had to take Myers whole contract, I think that negates any chance that deal could fit the budget given Bloom that winter. No Price had to be a given, IMO.

 

Myers’s contract is still running at $20M, so I agree it wouldn’t have been a fit, and not just the money part.

[notin]

If we had to take Myers whole contract, I think that negates any chance that deal could fit the budget given Bloom that winter. No Price had to be a given, IMO.

 

Myers contract overall was beastly but his AAV was/still is much lower.

 

But I’d think Bloom was right to gamble on Verdugo and Downs/Wong. Although as I’ve sad (far too) many times, I’d have kept Graterol…

[moonslav59]

Myers’s contract is still running at $20M, so I agree it wouldn’t have been a fit, and not just the money part.

 

There is no way of knowing, what other offers were made, but I'm assuming the choices were what we got or Graterol or Maeda, instead of Downs/Wong

 

I find it really hard to hold the Betts/Price trade against Bloom, and with Price included, I actually view the trade as a net plus, despite hating the idea that Henry forced Betts out.

[Larry Cook]

There is no way of knowing, what other offers were made, but I'm assuming the choices were what we got or Graterol or Maeda, instead of Downs/Wong

 

I find it really hard to hold the Betts/Price trade against Bloom, and with Price included, I actually view the trade as a net plus, despite hating the idea that Henry forced Betts out.

 

They tried to sign Betts, but were not willing to swallow that much cheese. So why not move him along and salvage what we could on the deal!

[moonslav59]

They tried to sign Betts, but were not willing to swallow that much cheese. So why not move him along and salvage what we could on the deal!

 

I get that, and agree with it. My argument is about those blaming Bloom for the whole situation. Like he chose to cut the tax budget from $244M to $184M in his first year.

 

I get the argument, and it is a valid one, that no GM should get a free pass with a budget of $184M, but some context is needed, when only $20M of the $184M was Bloom's winter spending budget, and he needed to replace and backfill many slots while cutting payroll. I think the expectations by some posters were a bit unrealistic for 2020.

 

2021 was a different story. Bloom has the 2020 deadline and following winter to work on filling many of the open or weak slots, but again, some context is needed. He was given just $40M to spend that winter, but the budget only increased by $23M overall. Again, how about a realistic expectation for what any GM could have done by increasing the budget by just $23M after a season where $60M was cut.

 

I get the argument that we were one loss away from missing the playoffs, but we ended up just 2 wins away from going to the big show. If that was falling short of anyone's expectations, I think some justifying needs to be given for having those higher expectations within the context of the budget and lack of immediate ML ready farm infusion available.

 

As it turned out, DD left Bloom with a better farm than many of us believed it was at the time of the regime change, but most were not ML ready or even close to being so. That's not a knock on DD, but it has to be part of the context needed to set realistic expectations for the Sox in 2020 and 2021.

 

The spending Bloom was given, this past winter, was enough to have much higher expectations for 2022 than the previous seasons, and the poor start was fair game, but now tat we've turned things around, I'm finding it hard to understand, not the impatience at the 2022 season, but the level of unhappiness and seemingly pinpoint attention directed only at a few bad moves or non moves by Bloom, last winter. Yes, he talked about getting a RH'd OF'er and didn't, unless we want to count Refsnyder. Yes, he only spent $8M on the pen, not counting the Barnes extension that began, this year, but again, how much did he have to spend, and would anyone want to take back the Wacha or Strahm signing? Certainly the Hill and Story signings are debatable, this early in the season, but looking at the overall grade for last winter's moves, I'd say it's pretty much up in the air, so far, and for those who go just by wins and losses, again, I can't see how he gets a below C grade, even for 2022, let alone 2020 & 2021.

 

I respect differing opinions, but I guess I'd just like to know why some of you had much higher expectations than I did. I have to think that's why you gave him loser grades than I did.

 

 

 

[vegasbob]

They tried to sign Betts, but were not willing to swallow that much cheese. So why not move him along and salvage what we could on the deal!

 

" You can't always get what you want..., but if you try sometime, you just may find, you get what you need ...."

[notin]

I don’t think Suzuki was ever in the picture. He never even met with the Red Sox, and when Bloom made the comment of needing a RHH for the OF Suzuki had already signed with the Cubs.

 

Bloom was talking about a tight-handed outfielder right after the Bradley deal in early December. Suzuki didn’t sign until March…

[moonslav59]

Bloom was talking about a tight-handed outfielder right after the Bradley deal in early December. Suzuki didn’t sign until March…

 

And, when Suzuki chose another team, Bloom pivoted to Story and obviously felt like that addition would outweigh the unfilling of the RH's OF slot.

 

He erred thinking Arroyo could fill a role some cheap signing could have filled better, but now it looks like he had the right guy all along, but did realize his name was Refsnyder. (Of course, the sample size is was too small to be sure about that point.) I guess we can blame Bloom & Cora for not keeping Refsnyder up the first time.

[notin]

And, when Suzuki chose another team, Bloom pivoted to Story and obviously felt like that addition would outweigh the unfilling of the RH's OF slot.

 

He erred thinking Arroyo could fill a role some cheap signing could have filled better, but now it looks like he had the right guy all along, but did realize his name was Refsnyder. (Of course, the sample size is was too small to be sure about that point.) I guess we can blame Bloom & Cora for not keeping Refsnyder up the first time.

 

But Arroyo in RF? Is that Bloom or Cora? Or both? (It feels like Suzuki fallout, as Seiya would have enabled the Arroyo-Bradley platoon, but with Kike flipping from 2b to CF.). And why has no one just said “leave Bradley out there regardless of whose pitching.” Not like they acquired him for his bat…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

But Arroyo in RF? Is that Bloom or Cora? Or both? (It feels like Suzuki fallout, as Seiya would have enabled the Arroyo-Bradley platoon, but with Kike flipping from 2b to CF.). And why has no one just said “leave Bradley out there regardless of whose pitching.” Not like they acquired him for his bat…

 

My perception of the return of JBJ is that it was only controversial on forum boards, where people who take the time to type reflections usually have to vent some gripe or another (we're all guilty). But fans cheer for him at games, and amateur coaches and players talk about him with respect because of what makes him a memorable Red Sox: outfield defense. Yes, we know he can have hot streaks with the bat, and was once an All-Star and ALCS MVP, but Jackie Bradley will always be a legend for his glove.

[Bellhorn04]

But Arroyo in RF? Is that Bloom or Cora? Or both? (It feels like Suzuki fallout, as Seiya would have enabled the Arroyo-Bradley platoon, but with Kike flipping from 2b to CF.). And why has no one just said “leave Bradley out there regardless of whose pitching.” Not like they acquired him for his bat…

 

Arroyo had a .769 OPS last year in 181 PA's - and a .885 OPS against lefties.

 

If he was doing that this year, the idea would look much better...

Edited June 15, 2022 by Bellhorn04

[notin]

Arroyo had a .769 OPS last year in 181 PA's - and a .885 OPS against lefties.

 

If he was doing that this year, the idea would look much better...

 

No it wouldn’t.

 

He doesn’t look good in the outfield. That’s why Bradley should just start out there period. Like I said all off-season, he’s hitting 9th anyway…

[Bellhorn04]

No it wouldn’t.

 

He doesn’t look good in the outfield. That’s why Bradley should just start out there period. Like I said all off-season, he’s hitting 9th anyway…

 

I realize he doesn't look good in the outfield. They thought he could make a better transition.

 

Bloom obviously thought Arroyo's bat had some potential, I think that's why he acquired him in the first place...

[Old Red]

Renfroe wasn’t good enough out there, and Duran isn’t either, but I think both are better options than Arroyo. Arroyo is not an OF, and especially trying to play RF in Fenway is not even an idea that should have been tried in the first place. Edited June 15, 2022 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

Renfroe wasn’t good enough out there, and Duran isn’t either, but I think both are better options than Arroyo. Arroyo is not an OF, and especially trying to play RF in Fenway is not even an idea that should have been tried in the first place.

 

I understand the logic behind trying Arroyo. He's cheap and his 2021 offensive numbers were decent, especially against lefties. He had no position once we signed Story.

 

It looks like Refsnyder may be the guy now.

[Old Red]

I understand the logic behind trying Arroyo. He's cheap and his 2021 offensive numbers were decent, especially against lefties. He had no position once we signed Story.

 

It looks like Refsnyder may be the guy now.

 

Just because someone is cheap you don’t try them in the toughest RF in baseball. He did have a position after signing Story of being the backup IF. Just like Franchy is not a 1B, and neither was Schwaber. That’s just Bloom, and Cora trying those spaghetti moves.

[mvp 78]

Arroyo had a .769 OPS last year in 181 PA's - and a .885 OPS against lefties.

 

If he was doing that this year, the idea would look much better...

 

UZR/150 -31.5

DRS -4, only 97 innings

 

He's horrible out there.

[Old Red]

UZR/150 -31.5

DRS -4, only 97 innings

 

He's horrible out there.

 

Just a spaghetti move to me, and a move that needed not to happen if Bloom would have just gotten a RHH OF in the first place instead of JBJ, and if not a regular RHH backup OF.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Old Red

[Old Red]

Arroyo had a .769 OPS last year in 181 PA's - and a .885 OPS against lefties.

 

If he was doing that this year, the idea would look much better...

 

If if if. If JBJ was a good hitter, and didn’t need to be platooned. If Barnes was the old good Barnes. If Sale was the old good Sale who wasn’t hurt all the time.