5/08 White Sox @ Red Sox 11:35AM ET

[Bellhorn04]

Someone on here said Cora was a magician with the bullpen. Well his magic show has been canceled.

 

True that.

[moonslav59]

Someone on here said Cora was a magician with the bullpen. Well his magic show has been canceled.

 

As bad as this pen looks on paper, especially with Whitlock and Houck starting or piggy-backing, our pen has out-shown our starters in close to half our games. While all the losses make anything seem less than magical, I still think, overall, the pen has done better than expected. The closer role not being defined should not be held against the pen, as you have stated. It's on Bloom & Cora.

[Old Red]

As bad as this pen looks on paper, especially with Whitlock and Houck starting or piggy-backing, our pen has out-shown our starters in close to half our games. While all the losses make anything seem less than magical, I still think, overall, the pen has done better than expected. The closer role not being defined should not be held against the pen, as you have stated. It's on Bloom & Cora.

 

I agree 100% it’s on Bloom, and Cora that the proper closer hasn’t been used.

[moonslav59]

I agree 100% it’s on Bloom, and Cora that the proper closer hasn’t been used.

 

The set-up and long relief part of our pen has really done much better than expected. It's when non-closers are asked to close the wheels come off.

 

It's hard for me to blame the pitchers asked to do something they are incapable of doing. Sure, they share some of the blame. They are supposed to be able to get batters out, and walking the lead-off guy is always a no-no, but yes, Bloom could have signed a real closer, or Cora could have used Houck or Whitlock as the FT closer from day 1.

 

Agreed.

[jad]

The obsession with 'closer' is something I don't understand. You don't need a 'set-up' guy, an '8th inning' guy and a 'closer'. Mario Riviera wasn't a great pitcher BECAUSE he was a great closer. He was a great closer because he was a great pitcher. Same is true here: the RS pitching hasn't been ineffective bec. they don't have set roles; it's ineffective bec. the pitchers themselves are ineffective. Once again: this is Bloom/henry's fault, not Cora's.

[moonslav59]

The obsession with 'closer' is something I don't understand. You don't need a 'set-up' guy, an '8th inning' guy and a 'closer'. Mario Riviera wasn't a great pitcher BECAUSE he was a great closer. He was a great closer because he was a great pitcher. Same is true here: the RS pitching hasn't been ineffective bec. they don't have set roles; it's ineffective bec. the pitchers themselves are ineffective. Once again: this is Bloom/henry's fault, not Cora's.

 

Whitlock & Houck are ineffective pitchers?

[Old Red]

The obsession with 'closer' is something I don't understand. You don't need a 'set-up' guy, an '8th inning' guy and a 'closer'. Mario Riviera wasn't a great pitcher BECAUSE he was a great closer. He was a great closer because he was a great pitcher. Same is true here: the RS pitching hasn't been ineffective bec. they don't have set roles; it's ineffective bec. the pitchers themselves are ineffective. Once again: this is Bloom/henry's fault, not Cora's.

 

It’s Cora’s fault he doesn’t know how to use the pitchers he has.

[Bellhorn04]

Whitlock & Houck are ineffective pitchers?

 

Houck has not been effective his last couple of times out, that's for sure.

[Bellhorn04]

It’s Cora’s fault he doesn’t know how to use the pitchers he has.

 

You're talking about Whitlock.

[Old Red]

You're talking about Whitlock.

 

Mainly yes, but Houck too. I believe that things have gotten worse since Whitlock went into the rotation, and Houck went to play piggyback, which I don’t think would have happened at least now if Houck had been vaxed, and not missed Toronto, because that’s when the changes were made, and things even got worse.

[Maxbialystock]

It’s Cora’s fault he doesn’t know how to use the pitchers he has.

 

Baloney. The ideal closer is a basically a 2 pitch wonder--3 pitches at the most. That is not Whitlock, who has the best repertoire on the team and should pitch more innings than a closer does.

 

I am inclined to agree with jad that the problem with this bunch of losers--and that's what they are--is far more the creation of Bloom and Henry than Cora.

 

Besides, the real problem is with the hitting, and that is entirely on Bloom and Henry. They dumped two guys, Schwarber and Iglesias, who helped the Sox get to the postseason last year, in order to bring in--drumroll, please--Trevor Story with his OPS of .545 and WAR of freaking -0.5. Oh, and they brought back JBJ, a brilliant right fielder, but with an OPS of .561.

 

This is the worst hitting/scoring Sox team in the John Henry era. Indeed, throughout those two decades the one thing Sox fans could be sure of was good hitting.

 

Now, with you leading the pack, we complain when the pitching staff can't hold onto a 1-0 lead.

 

I also disagree with moonslav that Houck is a good pitcher.

[moonslav59]

Houck has not been effective his last couple of times out, that's for sure.

 

He has for his first IP.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Some posters are just determined to wear out their fingers pointing at the manager and typing the Big Blame every day, thinking and hoping that if the font is large and bold enough, it will be accepted as fact.

 

Here are some facts from the 2021 postseason: Robles, Braiser, Houck and Whitlock all blew leads in relief, while Sawamura and Darwinzon gave up late-inning bombs. When Cora finally summoned his ace starter, Eovaldi, in the final inning of the fateful ALCS Gm 4, it was out of total desperation -- because he had no one left he could trust.

 

It is not known in the winter if Cora trusted his Chief Baseball Officer to fortify the deficient bullpen with something more than lefty set-up men -- but the fans certainly expected, demanded and deserved more.

[moonslav59]

Baloney. The ideal closer is a basically a 2 pitch wonder--3 pitches at the most. That is not Whitlock, who has the best repertoire on the team and should pitch more innings than a closer does.

 

I am inclined to agree with jad that the problem with this bunch of losers--and that's what they are--is far more the creation of Bloom and Henry than Cora.

 

Besides, the real problem is with the hitting, and that is entirely on Bloom and Henry. They dumped two guys, Schwarber and Iglesias, who helped the Sox get to the postseason last year, in order to bring in--drumroll, please--Trevor Story with his OPS of .545 and WAR of freaking -0.5. Oh, and they brought back JBJ, a brilliant right fielder, but with an OPS of .561.

 

This is the worst hitting/scoring Sox team in the John Henry era. Indeed, throughout those two decades the one thing Sox fans could be sure of was good hitting.

 

Now, with you leading the pack, we complain when the pitching staff can't hold onto a 1-0 lead.

 

I also disagree with moonslav that Houck is a good pitcher.

 

Houck has been pretty good for the first inning or two and mostly as a starter the first 1-2 times through a line-up.

 

We can't know for sure, but I think he'd have done better as a closer, than the committee has done. We can't know for sure he'd be good for just 1-2 innings at a time had he been used that way from game 1, but it's hard to imagine him doing much worse than what we've gotten, so far.

 

We all have heard about his spike the third time through a line-up, but do we all know how great he's been the first time through?

 

.504 1st

.647 2nd

1.017 3rd

 

I know many here despise analytics, but these numbers don't lie.

 

His game logs, this year first 2 innings:

 

4/10 GS

1st: 0 ER (1 H & 2 BB)

2nd: 0 ER 1H

 

4/16 GS

1st: 0 ER 1BB

2nd: 0 ER

 

4/21 GS

1st: 0 ER

2nd: 0 ER 1 2B

 

4/24 RP (came in with 1 out and man on 1st in 8th)

1st: 0 ER (2 outs no runners allowed)

2nd: 0 ER (1-2-3 9th)

 

4/29 RP (came in with 0 outs and man on 1st)

1st: 0 ER (1H & 1BB)

2nd: 0 ER (1-2-3)

 

5/5 RP (Piggy back- fresh inning)

1st: 0 ER (1-2-3 w 3Ks)

2nd: 2 ER (BB & HR)

 

5/8 GS

1st: 0 ER (1-2-3)

2nd: 0 ER (1-2-3)

 

He has yet to let up a run in his first inning pitched. He's had one bad 2nd inning pitched in 7 games played in.

 

Again, I'm not saying this easily translates into him being a lock-down closer, but his past history has shown he does very well the first few batters he faces in each game, and gets worse as he pitches longer into games.

 

Why not give it a go?

 

Call up Seabold or Winckowski to start.

 

[Old Red]

Baloney. The ideal closer is a basically a 2 pitch wonder--3 pitches at the most. That is not Whitlock, who has the best repertoire on the team and should pitch more innings than a closer does.

 

I am inclined to agree with jad that the problem with this bunch of losers--and that's what they are--is far more the creation of Bloom and Henry than Cora.

 

Besides, the real problem is with the hitting, and that is entirely on Bloom and Henry. They dumped two guys, Schwarber and Iglesias, who helped the Sox get to the postseason last year, in order to bring in--drumroll, please--Trevor Story with his OPS of .545 and WAR of freaking -0.5. Oh, and they brought back JBJ, a brilliant right fielder, but with an OPS of .561.

 

This is the worst hitting/scoring Sox team in the John Henry era. Indeed, throughout those two decades the one thing Sox fans could be sure of was good hitting.

 

Now, with you leading the pack, we complain when the pitching staff can't hold onto a 1-0 lead.

 

I also disagree with moonslav that Houck is a good pitcher.

 

Whitlock is their best pitcher, but the Red Sox have not won a game when he has started. It has already been established that hitting is the biggest problem, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that they are 0-6 in xtra innings, and have blow a 1 run lead in all 6 in the 8-9 innings five times that wouldn’t have made it into xtra innings to begin with. I guess you don’t care about those losses. Hitting I repeat is a problem, but FACTS are 0-6 in extra innings, and a 1 run lead was blown in all. Henry, and Bloom are to blame, and so isn’t Cora.

[notin]

You still for some reason won’t admit that the lack of a closer has cost the Red Sox games this year. Sat was the latest example, and even though it was just a 1 run lead a good closer should be able to protect that. The fact that the Red Sox don’t want to use one cost them the game. Offense is still the biggest problem, but the lack of a closer is 1B, and they have lost games, because of it. I’ll repeat for the 10th time that offense is the problem, but the closer has been a problem too, and that is on the Bloomer, and the Beard.

 

Because the lack of offense is costing than more games. The house is burning down and your trying to douse the burning drapes. Is it an issue? Yes. Is it their biggest one? Not by a long shot.

 

And the solution is right there assuming Cora ever wakes up and tries it. Houck is not a good starter. And using him to piggyback Hill (who actually is a good starter is another waste. The 2 or 3 games the Sox might have won with a good closer are nothing compared to the number of games the pitching has held the other team to 3 runs or less and the offense still couldn’t do anything about it.

 

I mean, ghost runners are a run basically handed over to the offense. You don’t even need a hit to drive one in. But the Sox have only driven in 3 of 7.

 

The Sox bizarre defensive play in late innings just makes it worse. Robles should have 0 blown saves and the defense has given him two…

[Old Red]

Because the lack of offense is costing than more games. The house is burning down and your trying to douse the burning drapes. Is it an issue? Yes. Is it their biggest one? Not by a long shot.

 

And the solution is right there assuming Cora ever wakes up and tries it. Houck is not a good starter. And using him to piggyback Hill (who actually is a good starter is another waste. The 2 or 3 games the Sox might have won with a good closer are nothing compared to the number of games the pitching has held the other team to 3 runs or less and the offense still couldn’t do anything about it.

 

I mean, ghost runners are a run basically handed over to the offense. You don’t even need a hit to drive one in. But the Sox have only driven in 3 of 7.

 

The Sox bizarre defensive play in late innings just makes it worse. Robles should have 0 blown saves and the defense has given him two…

 

You keep going back to the offense, which has already been established is the biggest problem, but it’s also a fact in the 0-6 xtra innings that the so called closer not named Whitlock has blown a 1 run lead. You keep hoping that those one run leads were 3 run leads, but they weren’t, and the closer blew all 6. What part of that don’t you understand?

[moonslav59]

You keep going back to the offense, which has already been established is the biggest problem, but it’s also a fact in the 0-6 xtra innings that the so called closer not named Whitlock has blown a 1 run lead. You keep hoping that those one run leads were 3 run leads, but they weren’t, and the closer blew all 6. What part of that don’t you understand?

 

You keep going back to blaming the closer.

 

I think we all understand the offense and closer role have deeply failed, this year. We are all getting a bit repetitious in our focusing on certain areas.

[Old Red]

You keep going back to blaming the closer.

 

I think we all understand the offense and closer role have deeply failed, this year. We are all getting a bit repetitious in our focusing on certain areas.

 

I agree, and I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because no one is changing anyones mind, and the worst thing is those 6 xtra innings losses aren’t changing to the win column either.

[moonslav59]

I agree, and I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because no one is changing anyones mind, and the worst thing is those 6 xtra innings losses aren’t changing to the win column either.

 

Indeed, but we can try to not let it happen as often, going forward.

 

Changing the closer situation seems easier to try than trying something to change the offense centered on 6+ guys free-falling as we speak.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Indeed, but we can try to not let it happen as often, going forward.

 

Changing the closer situation seems easier to try than trying something to change the offense centered on 6+ guys free-falling as we speak.

 

But imagine the savings if they dumped half a dozen veteran salaries! What's the worst thing that can happen: they bring up six minor leaguers and they strikeout all the time?

 

At least Sam Kennedy can then book Dire Straits for a concert at Fenway, and they can replace "Sweet Caroline" with "We are the Sultans of Swing and Miss"

[moonslav59]

But imagine the savings if they dumped half a dozen veteran salaries! What's the worst thing that can happen: they bring up six minor leaguers and they strikeout all the time?

 

At least Sam Kennedy can then book Dire Straits for a concert at Fenway, and they can replace "Sweet Caroline" with "We are the Sultans of Swing and Miss"

 

I really am not looking forward to a fire sale, but the thought is forcing its way into my brain.

 

Could this be the 26 man roster in August?

 

S1 Whitlock

S2 Sale

S3 Paxton

S4 Pivetta

S5 Seabold

 

Closer Houck

RP2 Taylot

RP3 Diekman

RP4 Brasier

RP5 Barnes

RP6 DHern

RP7/8 Crawford/German/Feltman/Winckowski/Groome/Wallace

 

C Wong & RHernandez

1B Casas

2B Arroyo & Downs/Sanchez

SS Story

3B Devers

LF Verdugo & JDavis/Granberg

CF Fitzy & Duran

RF JBJ

DH Dalbec

 

 

[notin]

I agree, and I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because no one is changing anyones mind, and the worst thing is those 6 xtra innings losses aren’t changing to the win column either.

 

In 4 of those losses, Sox pitching held the opposition to 4 total runs over 36 innings. And you can’t even blame all of them on the bullpen, since the loss in Tampa:

 

1. Was 0-0 after 9. Not exactly the bullpen failure you keep saying it was.

2. Should have ended on the groundout to Story. But the defense gave Tampa 4 outs…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I really am not looking forward to a fire sale, but the thought is forcing its way into my brain.

 

Could this be the 26 man roster in August?

 

S1 Whitlock

S2 Sale

S3 Paxton

S4 Pivetta

S5 Seabold

 

Closer Houck

RP2 Taylot

RP3 Diekman

RP4 Brasier

RP5 Barnes

RP6 DHern

RP7/8 Crawford/German/Feltman/Winckowski/Groome/Wallace

 

C Wong & RHernandez

1B Casas

2B Arroyo & Downs/Sanchez

SS Story

3B Devers

LF Verdugo & JDavis/Granberg

CF Fitzy & Duran

RF JBJ

DH Dalbec

 

 

 

Maybe, but if they officially punt, don't look for either Sale or Paxton to have a regular role in any late-season play-out-the-string. And this would mostly be about protecting the financial obligations -- not investments -- and making sure their arms are 100% (or whatever is left, 75%?) for next year, when the club may have a better chance.

 

If they blow it up, there's no reason not to promote three or four close-to-ready MLB arms to get a taste of The Show.

[jung]

I agree, and I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because no one is changing anyones mind, and the worst thing is those 6 xtra innings losses aren’t changing to the win column either.

 

Well clearly the offense is not much to write home about. But does anybody expect the kind of run output and OPS we have seen in recent years across baseball? I don't.

[Old Red]

In 4 of those losses, Sox pitching held the opposition to 4 total runs over 36 innings. And you can’t even blame all of them on the bullpen, since the loss in Tampa:

 

1. Was 0-0 after 9. Not exactly the bullpen failure you keep saying it was.

2. Should have ended on the groundout to Story. But the defense gave Tampa 4 outs…

 

We’ve already moved on with all of this with a verdict that no one is going to change their mind.

[notin]

Well clearly the offense is not much to write home about. But does anybody expect the kind of run output and OPS we have seen in recent years across baseball? I don't.

 

Offense is down across baseball but the Sox are ranked 25th or below in pretty much every category…

[moonslav59]

Maybe, but if they officially punt, don't look for either Sale or Paxton to have a regular role in any late-season play-out-the-string. And this would mostly be about protecting the financial obligations -- not investments -- and making sure their arms are 100% (or whatever is left, 75%?) for next year, when the club may have a better chance.

 

If they blow it up, there's no reason not to promote three or four close-to-ready MLB arms to get a taste of The Show.

 

I think they'd let them pitch but with limited pitch counts.

[moonslav59]

Offense is down across baseball but the Sox are ranked 25th or below in pretty much every category…

 

And, below bad is really bad.

[notin]

I think they'd let them pitch but with limited pitch counts.

 

Give them two runs through the batting order…