Fire Bloom .

[Bellhorn04]

Finished second in 2019. First in 2020 (World Series appearance). First in 2021. Currently 2nd. Sox - Third in 2019. Last in 2020. Tied for second in 2021. Currently last.

 

Their record is worse this year than it was in 2019. That's a simple fact.

[Elktonnick]

Tell you what, Nick, show us one credible source that confirms every move Theo made in those "early years" was approved by Lucchino. Just one.

 

Because I will let no attack which impugns my integrity go unchallenged chew on this Sancho:

 

In his column, Shaughnessy, who'd known Lucchino since the 1980s, when both men worked in Baltimore, chided Epstein for not properly respecting his superiors. After all, Shaughnessy wrote, it was Lucchino who'd "discovered" Epstein and "held his hand" during his first years in baseball. Now, Shaughnessy wrote, Epstein was exhibiting an "alarming . . . need to distance himself from those who helped him rise to his position of power." Epstein, according to Shaughnessy, didn't even know all that much about baseball. "It's a mistake to say [Epstein] knows more about baseball than Lucchino or anyone else in the Red Sox baseball operation," he wrote.

 

Excerpted from Feeding the Monster: How Money, Smarts, and Nerve Took a Team to the Top, to be published Tuesday by Simon & Schuster. Copyright © 2006 by Seth Mnookin. Send e-mails to magazine@globe.com.

 

© Copyright 2006 Globe Newspaper Company.

[Bellhorn04]

Do your own research. Lucchino hired Epstein as interim GM. Larry was President. No corporate president gives an interim GM unilateral authority.

 

So that's two facts everyone knows and an opinion.

 

I'm not doing research on your bogus claims, thanks.

[Old Red]

You do i know, it takes two to trade, right?

 

It is extremely difficult to make significant trades before July, and the 3rd WC slot might have made it even harder.

 

I'm not saying it was impossible, and usually decent 1Bmen are plentiful, but for all we know, Bloom tried hard but could not pry any from anyone. If he could have and didn't, then I'll agree: big mistake.

There you go again spin, spin, and more spin. How could just getting a real 1B who could catch a popup, and just play good D be classified as a SIGNIFICANT trade. Way over analyzing thing’s again, and NO we don’t know that Bloom tried to do anything let alone tried hard.

[Bellhorn04]

Because I will let no attack which impugns my integrity go unchallenged chew on this Sancho:

 

In his column, Shaughnessy, who'd known Lucchino since the 1980s, when both men worked in Baltimore, chided Epstein for not properly respecting his superiors. After all, Shaughnessy wrote, it was Lucchino who'd "discovered" Epstein and "held his hand" during his first years in baseball. Now, Shaughnessy wrote, Epstein was exhibiting an "alarming . . . need to distance himself from those who helped him rise to his position of power." Epstein, according to Shaughnessy, didn't even know all that much about baseball. "It's a mistake to say [Epstein] knows more about baseball than Lucchino or anyone else in the Red Sox baseball operation," he wrote.

 

Excerpted from Feeding the Monster: How Money, Smarts, and Nerve Took a Team to the Top, to be published Tuesday by Simon & Schuster. Copyright © 2006 by Seth Mnookin. Send e-mails to magazine@globe.com.

 

© Copyright 2006 Globe Newspaper Company.

 

Yes, I just read that myself. Nothing but opinions from Shaughnessy. No quotes from anyone.

[Elktonnick]

Yes, I just read that myself. Nothing but opinions from Shaughnessy. No quotes from anyone.

 

Now you refuse to accept the word of a baseball writer who was voted the highest award for baseball writing. Your logic is becoming more twisted than a pretzel.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Elktonnick

[Old Red]

Yes, I just read that myself. Nothing but opinions from Shaughnessy. No quotes from anyone.

 

Oh no not from the Bad Bad Shaugnessy whom some on here talk like he’s public enemy #1.

[dgalehouse]

Folks form their opinions and nothing that happens will make them change those opinions. Meanwhile, it is frustrating watching our favorite team in the basement. Nothing more to say. We can only hope things get better soon. The ball is in John Henry's court.

[Bellhorn04]

Because I will let no attack which impugns my integrity go unchallenged chew on this Sancho:

 

In his column, Shaughnessy, who'd known Lucchino since the 1980s, when both men worked in Baltimore, chided Epstein for not properly respecting his superiors. After all, Shaughnessy wrote, it was Lucchino who'd "discovered" Epstein and "held his hand" during his first years in baseball. Now, Shaughnessy wrote, Epstein was exhibiting an "alarming . . . need to distance himself from those who helped him rise to his position of power." Epstein, according to Shaughnessy, didn't even know all that much about baseball. "It's a mistake to say [Epstein] knows more about baseball than Lucchino or anyone else in the Red Sox baseball operation," he wrote.

 

Excerpted from Feeding the Monster: How Money, Smarts, and Nerve Took a Team to the Top, to be published Tuesday by Simon & Schuster. Copyright © 2006 by Seth Mnookin. Send e-mails to magazine@globe.com.

 

© Copyright 2006 Globe Newspaper Company.

 

Here's some more from the same book, about that same column by Shaughnessy and the aborted Larry Bigbie trade that led Theo to temporarily leave the team:

 

"Either Lucchino or Steinberg, Epstein felt sure, had prompted the column. The two men were, after all, the heroes of the piece, and both had said lines almost identical to some Shaughnessy had used. Where else could Shaughnessy have gotten the incorrect notion-repeated in the column as fact, without any attribution-that Epstein had asked Lucchino to shoulder the blame for the Bigbie trade? It was actually Henry and Epstein who had decided to nix the deal; Lucchino had never been part of the conversation."

 

"About a week earlier, several sources confirm that Steinberg had a conversation with Shaughnessy and another reporter in which he said many of the things that ended up in Shaughnessy's column."

 

"Over the next several months, Shaughnessy repeatedly insisted that neither Lucchino nor his allies within the organization had urged him to write the October 30 column. But on November 1, Shaughnessy wrote that the version of the Bigbie trade he wrote as fact was 'the version held by Lucchino's camp (three sources)'. Wherever he got the information, it simply wasn't true. 'I vetoed the trade,' says Henry. 'It was me, after Theo and I talked about it. It was never Larry. He had nothing to do with it.'"

 

So in essence, Lucchino lied, and Shaughnessy repeated the lie, and Henry went on record to call it a lie.

[Bellhorn04]

Now you refuse to accept the word of a baseball writer who was voted the highest award for baseball writing. Your logic is becoming more twisted than a pretzel.

 

Read the above, Nick, from the book you excerpted, and learn the truth.

[notin]

I will admit he is a good CF, but I would hope the Sox could do with a better all around player.

 

He contributes. He was a 4.1 fWAR player last year. I don’t care if you don’t like fWAR either…

[Old Red]

Folks form their opinions and nothing that happens will make them change those opinions. Meanwhile, it is frustrating watching our favorite team in the basement. Nothing more to say. We can only hope things get better soon. The ball is in John Henry's court.

 

I still say his rabbit ears are up, and he doesn’t like all the bad publicity the team, and Bloom are getting, and to some extent him.

[Old Red]

He contributes. He was a 4.1 fWAR player last year. I don’t care if you don’t like fWAR either…

 

Why do you keep talking about last year? Oh I know it’s, because he’s SUCKED this year. I don’t care about fWAR, but I just don’t need it, but thanks anyway.

[notin]

Why do you keep talking about last year? Oh I know it’s, because he’s SUCKED this year. I don’t care about fWAR, but I just don’t need it, but thanks anyway.

 

In response to your comment about wanting a more complete player..

[Old Red]

In response to your comment about wanting a more complete player..

 

But that was last year, and the EYE TEST says he sucked this year, and that’s all I need.

[notin]

But that was last year, and the EYE TEST says he sucked this year, and that’s all I need.

 

Judging any player by just one year isn’t good. Any player can have a bad year. And when I was a wee lad, I met a wise man and he told me “never trust a man who judges outfield defense by watching games on TV.”

 

At the time I didn’t know what to make of it…

[Elktonnick]

Read the above, Nick, from the book you excerpted, and learn the truth.

 

The truth is Lucchinio mentored Epstein from the beginning. Lucchinio hired Epstein as interim GM. Lucchino was club president. When Lucchino hired Epstein he was not some unknown fresh face. He was brought from San Diego by his mentor Lucchino.Those are undisputed facts

The rest of what you post is open to your interpretation but does not change the basic fact that Lucchino was Epstein boss in his early days as interim GM with all that entails.

[moonslav59]

More goalpost moving.

[Old Red]

Judging any player by just one year isn’t good. Any player can have a bad year. And when I was a wee lad, I met a wise man and he told me “never trust a man who judges outfield defense by watching games on TV.”

 

At the time I didn’t know what to make of it…

 

Kike was overrated by his hot streak in the postseason last year, and no I’m not judging him just on last year as you know I have referred to him on previous post as a good utility man, so to say 1 year is not true just like you said I didn’t like fWAR, or any of the others. I have said I don’t need it, and don’t care about it.

[Old Red]

More goalpost moving.

 

Coming out of the bushes again like a groundhog coming out of his hole to see if he sees his shadow, or not to make a comment.

[Bellhorn04]

I still say his rabbit ears are up, and he doesn’t like all the bad publicity the team, and Bloom are getting, and to some extent him.

 

Here we agree.

[Old Red]

Here we agree.

 

Great! I’m going to end the day on a good note.

[Bellhorn04]

I understand why, but wondered what you felt was the bigger mistake- even in hindsight.

 

The Renfroe trade all the way.

[Elktonnick]

More goalpost moving.

You are a day late and a dollar short as usual Skippy.

 

The original issue was about hiring an experienced GM or a fresh face and Theo was cited as the fresh face. The rest is just your acolyte being very Un- Canadian.

[Bellhorn04]

You are a day late and a dollar short as usual Skippy.

 

The original issue was about hiring an experienced GM or a fresh face and Theo was cited as the fresh face. The rest is just your acolyte being very Un- Canadian.

 

Sorry about those pesky facts.

[Elktonnick]

Nice gibberish.

 

Sorry about those pesky facts.

You cited none. I admit I made a mistake when I called you Sancho Panza. Sancho Panza in Don Quixote is the rational squire to the deluded Quixote who goes charging at windmills.

You are more like Quixote than Quixote himself. I hope there are no windmills where you live. You may get hurt.

[notin]

The truth is Lucchinio mentored Epstein from the beginning. Lucchinio hired Epstein as interim GM. Lucchino was club president. When Lucchino hired Epstein he was not some unknown fresh face. He was brought from San Diego by his mentor Lucchino.Those are undisputed facts

The rest of what you post is open to your interpretation but does not change the basic fact that Lucchino was Epstein boss in his early days as interim GM with all that entails.

 

 

I see no problems with that. Epstein was just starting out. Lucchino was a seasoned sports executive with a World Series ring, Super Bowl ring, and Final Four watch to his credit. And Epstein was clearly willing to listen because he knew he didn’t know how to run an MLB franchise.

 

Yep, even Epstein could admit that. Humility is very important…

[moonslav59]

You are a day late and a dollar short as usual Skippy.

 

The original issue was about hiring an experienced GM or a fresh face and Theo was cited as the fresh face. The rest is just your acolyte being very Un- Canadian.

 

Nice one- "Skippy."

 

I was responding to your statement, "Every thing that Epstein did in those early years was approved by Lucchino..."

 

Now, you move the goalpost and soften your point, once confronted with the facts, AS USUAL.

 

I expect, now, you will ask me to go take issue with the author of the article you got your wrong information from. You made a point that is not factual, or at least is in doubt, and then acted like it was gospel. Then, once exposed, you change your tune to a more general statement.

 

Just own up, Skippy.

 

Admitting a mistake is a sign of strength not weakness.

 

[Elktonnick]

Nice gibberish.

 

I see no problems with that. Epstein was just starting out. Lucchino was a seasoned sports executive with a World Series ring, Super Bowl ring, and Final Four watch to his credit. And Epstein was clearly willing to listen because he knew he didn’t know how to run an MLB franchise.

 

Yep, even Epstein could admit that. Humility is very important…[/QUO

But in the end Epstein turned on his benefactor now didn't he?

The whole saga has a certain Shakespearen quality.

[Elktonnick]

Nice gibberish.

 

Nice one- "Skippy."

 

I was responding to your statement, "Every thing that Epstein did in those early years was approved by Lucchino..."

 

Now, you move the goalpost and soften your point, once confronted with the facts, AS USUAL.

 

I expect, now, you will ask me to go take issue with the author of the article you got your wrong information from. You made a point that is not factual, or at least is in doubt, and then acted like it was gospel. Then, once exposed, you change your tune to a more general statement.

 

Just own up, Skippy.

 

Admitting a mistake is a sign of strength not weakness.

 

 

What mistake Scarecrow?