Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

Swihart’s Exorcism, then?

 

Excellent choice of words.

[moonslav59]

I'll just keep saying the same thing about Betts. JH balked at what Mookie wanted. It's as simple as that. We can make it as complicated as we want, but sometimes the simple answer is the right one.

 

I totally agree, and blaming Bloom or calling that trade his lasting legacy shows a shortsightedness very common in these debates.

 

The "He could have gotten a better return" argument makes more sense as a topic for debate, but even that rings hollow, when you factor in the half Price addition to the deal, and how few teams would even answer a call on a trade with that much cost.

[mvp 78]

You two have had a thing going for quite a while now.

 

Rubbin' sticks and stones together makes the sparks ignite

[mvp 78]

Yes we have, and I’ve told how it started. I know I’m not the only one except for the length of time, and you remember it wasn’t that long ago that he got into it with MVP, and you were all upset about it.He has had me on ignore several times, but then he still comments on my post. He can’t resist, and has bragged he has to get the last word in.Besides I only Cheer, Cheer for Old Notre Dame.

 

Yuck

[mvp 78]

This i get and i do understand this. Personally i think that Sale absolutely deserved the deals he got. He earned them. If people want to think that that signing has literally crippled us for what the last 4 or 5 years, so be it. I'm sorry but look at the junk really that he has signed and brought in to us. I do understand how you feel though.

 

IDK, they re-signed him when he was injured goods. Seems like they should have held off?

[mvp 78]

He's kept the fans highly competitive, in terms of at each other's' throats.

 

It's like that no matter what the win-loss record is. You're not new around here.

[cp176]

IDK, they re-signed him when he was injured goods. Seems like they should have held off?

 

Common sense and business sense I guess says you are right. Obviously I'm not changing how I feel about this guy. He brings things to this team that they desperately need even when half healthy. I just have gotten tired of reading about what a terrible sign it was to reup him and how it has so dramatically held this team back. Then I start thinking about all of the mediocre as well as injured talent that we have signed over the past few years. I see that as money wasted. but hey I am a Chris Sale fan. Looking ahead, I'd be surprised if I ever get to see him hit 97/98 on that radar shot again. I'm glad that I had the opportunity to see one of the best who has worn that Red Sox jersey. I hope someone else emerges who can lead the way again. I don't see it on the horizon and as long as a profit continues to be turned I don't see it coming through free agency or trade.

[Bellhorn04]

IDK, they re-signed him when he was injured goods. Seems like they should have held off?

 

It was also a well-below-market contract that Sale wouldn't have signed as a free agent-if he was healthy. I think both sides factored in the injury risk.

 

It's the non-TJS injuries that have really killed this contract.

 

Obviously in retrospect it should never have been done.

[mvp 78]

Common sense and business sense I guess says you are right. Obviously I'm not changing how I feel about this guy. He brings things to this team that they desperately need even when half healthy. I just have gotten tired of reading about what a terrible sign it was to reup him and how it has so dramatically held this team back. Then I start thinking about all of the mediocre as well as injured talent that we have signed over the past few years. I see that as money wasted. but hey I am a Chris Sale fan. Looking ahead, I'd be surprised if I ever get to see him hit 97/98 on that radar shot again. I'm glad that I had the opportunity to see one of the best who has worn that Red Sox jersey. I hope someone else emerges who can lead the way again. I don't see it on the horizon and as long as a profit continues to be turned I don't see it coming through free agency or trade.

 

I generally agree in what he means to the team in a vacuum. However, when the one issue is to strictly keep Mookie no matter what, keeping an injured Sale seems less valuable. You can make the case to re-sign Eovaldi, but Sale and a few others would have to go.

[redsoxrules]

They had to let Sale go like they did with Pedro back in 05 but they didn't. That's the only move I didn't like that DD made. I like Sale as he had some monster years with the Sox but he had to be let go.

[mvp 78]

It was also a well-below-market contract that Sale wouldn't have signed as a free agent-if he was healthy. I think both sides factored in the injury risk.

 

It's the non-TJS injuries that have really killed this contract.

 

Obviously in retrospect it should never have been done.

 

5/145 (29 AAV) in 2018/2019 isn't "well below" market. It was the largest SP contract that offseason (Corbin 6/140 coming off 5.8 fWAR age 28 season). Larger than the previous offseason (Yu Darvish 6/126) or the year before that.

[notin]

They had to let Sale go like they did with Pedro back in 05 but they didn't. That's the only move I didn't like that DD made. I like Sale as he had some monster years with the Sox but he had to be let go.

 

Especially since they could have let him pitch at least part of 2019 to see if he was healthy…

[moonslav59]

It's like that no matter what the win-loss record is. You're not new around here.

 

No, I'm not, but as a fan of the Sox for 50 years, it was not like this before 2004. We all had a somewhat common target of our frustrations, disappointments and anger, that being management and the owner's unwillingness to spend bigly.

 

Once we got a ring, it messed that all up. We can talk spoiled fans, higher expectations, the prior unheard of fans defending a Sox GM and I'm sure the list could go on and on, but fans did not turn on each other in the 70's 80's and 90's, at least in my tiny corner of the world, which was Portland, Maine, at the time.

[moonslav59]

Especially since they could have let him pitch at least part of 2019 to see if he was healthy…

 

The problem is, if he looked great out of the gate in '19, his price tag goes up. Then, he gets hurt, anyway.

[notin]

The problem is, if he looked great out of the gate in '19, his price tag goes up. Then, he gets hurt, anyway.

 

By how much?

 

He was always getting a $29mill AAV. At worst he gets two more years at $2-3 mill more and is in the David Price range.

 

Or the Sox realize he is a risk and they let him test the market.

 

Or are you arguing they got him at a discount? Because right now he has been getting about $1mill per IP. The argument about waiting to see if he got more expensive seems tough to support, given the health issues he has had…

[mvp 78]

The problem is, if he looked great out of the gate in '19, his price tag goes up. Then, he gets hurt, anyway.

 

He had a 6.30 ERA in Mar/Apr.

[Dipre]

The Sale contract was stupid, and everyone knows it. The pledged loyalty to Sale because of his contributions and paid dearly for it, as it was clear he was damaged goods. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Old Red]

No, I'm not, but as a fan of the Sox for 50 years, it was not like this before 2004. We all had a somewhat common target of our frustrations, disappointments and anger, that being management and the owner's unwillingness to spend bigly.

 

Once we got a ring, it messed that all up. We can talk spoiled fans, higher expectations, the prior unheard of fans defending a Sox GM and I'm sure the list could go on and on, but fans did not turn on each other in the 70's 80's and 90's, at least in my tiny corner of the world, which was Portland, Maine, at the time.

 

I wouldn’t call Portland Maine my little corner of the world. Portland is a big city to me here in Maine. I’ll agree that 2004 changed things along with 2007, 2013, and 2018.

[Bellhorn04]

5/145 (29 AAV) in 2018/2019 isn't "well below" market. It was the largest SP contract that offseason (Corbin 6/140 coming off 5.8 fWAR age 28 season). Larger than the previous offseason (Yu Darvish 6/126) or the year before that.

 

And Sale wasn't vastly better than Corbin notwithstanding the Recency Effect?

 

Also, I'm disappointed in you not making the present value adjustments. The official AAV is 25.6 mill.

[Bellhorn04]

Especially since they could have let him pitch at least part of 2019 to see if he was healthy…

 

How many times do we have to go over this?

 

Many players won't negotiate once the season starts.

[Bellhorn04]

The problem is, if he looked great out of the gate in '19, his price tag goes up.

 

Someone who gets it.

[mvp 78]

And Sale wasn't vastly better than Corbin notwithstanding the Recency Effect?

 

Also, I'm disappointed in you not making the present value adjustments. The official AAV is 25.6 mill.

 

Corbin 2018:

200 IP

3.15 ERA

246 K

48 BB

5th in CY voting

AS

 

Corbin was on the open market and was going to be paid a premium, but he was an ACE at that time and helped the Nats get a WS title. He fell off hard though.

[mvp 78]

How many times do we have to go over this?

 

Many players won't negotiate once the season starts.

 

Players don't negotiate, agents do.

[Old Red]

By how much?

 

He was always getting a $29mill AAV. At worst he gets two more years at $2-3 mill more and is in the David Price range.

 

Or the Sox realize he is a risk and they let him test the market.

 

Or are you arguing they got him at a discount? Because right now he has been getting about $1mill per IP. The argument about waiting to see if he got more expensive seems tough to support, given the health issues he has had…

 

There was always talk of Sale being a TJ waiting to happen, because of his motion, and frail frame. I thought it was a bad signing at the time, and would have waited to see how 2019 turned out.

[moonslav59]

He had a 6.30 ERA in Mar/Apr.

 

Yes, and that is the flip side of that position. If he sucked, or looked hurt, no extension would be offered.

[moonslav59]

By how much?

 

He was always getting a $29mill AAV. At worst he gets two more years at $2-3 mill more and is in the David Price range.

 

Or the Sox realize he is a risk and they let him test the market.

 

Or are you arguing they got him at a discount? Because right now he has been getting about $1mill per IP. The argument about waiting to see if he got more expensive seems tough to support, given the health issues he has had…

 

It's always been my opinion that a healthy Sale was worth close to $145M/4 than $145M/5. I think they built in close to a lost season into the deal. Had Sale looked great in early 2019, he might have gotten $145/4 or $175M/5. Just my take, apparently.

[moonslav59]

I wouldn’t call Portland Maine my little corner of the world. Portland is a big city to me here in Maine. I’ll agree that 2004 changed things along with 2007, 2013, and 2018.

 

Well, you did call Houston, a city of over 5 million my "small corner."

[mvp 78]

Yes, and that is the flip side of that position. If he sucked, or looked hurt, no extension would be offered.

 

He was injured at the end of 2018. Make him earn the extension. That's what I would have done if I was the CBO. Oh well...

[moonslav59]

There was always talk of Sale being a TJ waiting to happen, because of his motion, and frail frame. I thought it was a bad signing at the time, and would have waited to see how 2019 turned out.

 

Then, you would have cried when they did not sign him after a 2019 Cy Young season.

[mvp 78]

Well, you did call Houston, a city of over 5 million my "small corner."

 

Portland is a thriving 68,000.000!